Part of it I think is the nature of how flavorings work and why different people taste them differently.
Why don't more flavor companies use terpenes?
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How people vape menthol is a complete mystery to me. It's like eating Vics Vaporub. I'm thinking twice about making big batches based on the advice here. Plus I think I'm going to tweak my ratios a bit to get the flavor exactly right first. At least a few more trials before I make a giant batch, hate wasting stuff.
I do really like the idea of making a cheesecake base though, as it's a flavor that requires a long steep, and be able to add whatever fruit on top I feel like at the time. Thanks for the advice and input.
I do really like the idea of making a cheesecake base though, as it's a flavor that requires a long steep, and be able to add whatever fruit on top I feel like at the time. Thanks for the advice and input.
The way they overstuff them as it is, it's like they think they are using rayon...
If you are referring to oxidation... then, yes, nicotine seems to be most susceptible.
Dilution refers to the reduction in concentration of a component. Anything you add to your e-liquid mix, including (but not limited to) PG, VG, water, alcohol, nicotine concentrate, other flavor concentrates; will all dilute non-like components. Dilution does, often, reduce flavor perception.
The exception is, if two (or more) concentrates share the same element(s). If concentrate "A," and concentrate "B," both contain 10% ethyl maltol (for example; a proven flavor muting ingredient when too much is used), it remains at 10% (before any additional dilution). This is the double-edged sword of willy-nilly compounding concentrates... and one reason why reduction is often preferable to increase (of percentages).
What you haven't mentioned, and may or may not have thought about, is volatility. And, volatility is where a lot of flavor "fade" comes from. The more volatile a substance (flavor molecule/compound; for our purposes) is, the faster/easier it transitions from liquid, to gaseous state. In essence... how readily it evaporates at/near room temperature.
These volatile compounds also happen to (often) be where the more aromatic notes come from. Lose these; and one loses much of the flavor. FA Lemon Sicily is one of the most famous concentrates that demonstrates this effect. If you are uncertain, or unaware of the importance aroma plays (regarding taste); the next time you are eating/drinking/vaping, pinch your nose closed and see how much the flavor is reduced. If these aromatics are gone; the flavor suffers.
So, as I look at it; there are several factors a DIYer needs to consider as s/he thinks about flavor loss:
- Dilution. This is the basic starting point for most mixers. It is the percentage we work with.
- Too much dilution; and the flavor can be weak, or even non-existent.
- Too little dilution; and the flavor can become fake, artificial, chemical-like. It extreme situations; it can overwhelm the senses, and disappear altogether (effect can be mistaken as "under-flavoring," or attributed to flavor fade).
- Oxidation. This seems (mostly?) applicable to nicotine. Oxidation requires free/"available" oxygen. Things that encourage oxidation are:
- Aeration. Excessive stirring, shaking, or otherwise agitating an e-liquid, with unsaturated air (air that still has capacity to absorb additional gas(es)) facilitates gas exchange.
- Excessive headspace (excessive air in the container). The more airspace; the greater the capacity the air has to absorb additional gases, before reaching saturation. As well as providing more available oxygen, to react with oxidizable components.
- Temperature. Temperature can accelerate the reaction; as well as encourage decomposition.
- Volatility. Volatility is influenced by:
- Temperature. Higher temperatures encourage greater numbers of chemicals, to reach transition, from liquid to gas.
- Aeration. Excessive stirring, shaking, or otherwise agitating an e-liquid, with unsaturated air (air that still has capacity to absorb additional gas(es)) facilitates gas exchange. Most importantly, the loss of flavor-contributing molecules, into the available airspace.
- Excessive headspace. The more air in a bottle... the more room to absorb (and lose flavor) volatile molecules... at least, until the available headspace becomes saturated, and can no longer accept additional gases.
- Example: it is better to store 30mL of e-liquid in a 32mL bottle (with only 2mL of headspace); compared to storing 30mL of e-liquid in a 120mL bottle (with 90mL of headspace. Because, the 2mL headspace will quickly become saturated, and not accept additional gases. Thereby, preventing additional off-gassing, and flavor loss, compared to the 90mL headspace (which requires 45 times the amount of the the same gases).
- Excessive exposure to free air. This is is the same issue as excessive headspace, but is unlimited' in that there is no finite space. Common causes:
- Needless, excessive, "breathing" (leaving an e-liquid completely uncapped), in order to allow alcohol to evaporate.
- Extended/excessive mixing in an open container, like a beaker, or flask. The wider the liquid's surface area, the faster it can off-gas. Heat, again, accelerates this process.
- Keep mixes in the smallest container possible.
- Don't use heat. Heat does have the advantage of thinning viscosity, and accelerating chemical reactions. But, the benefits... again, to me... don't outweigh the potential negative results (namely, flavor loss). Time, and patience, have served my desired results, better.
- Start with lowest percentages required. Single flavor testing (SFT) helps me to understand, at what percentage, a given concentrate tastes best to me. This becomes the "highest/top" percentage I am likely to want to use it at. When I combine it with other flavors, I will likely use less.
- If a flavor is dominating, or is being dominated, by another flavor; first try lowering the excessive flavor(s), vs. increasing the weaker flavors. I have never found an activity, where the adage of "less is more" is more appropriate, than DIYing e-liquids. Only increase percentages when nothing else works.
- Don't over-stir (mix, shake, blend, vibrate... whatever you do). Mechanical mixing can only take the process so far. Time has to do the rest. Patience is truly the mixer's best friend.
- Along this same line... and like heat... air is not really your friend. With the exception of dissipating alcohol (which happens naturally with a little time), exposure to air does nothing beneficial to e-liquid.
- Mix small "test" quantities. This conserves one's ingredients. Reduces the need to feel like one "needs" to "fix" the test batch. And, allows the shortest period for steeping (the larger the batch; the longer it takes to wholly homogenize).
- Be aware of any given concentrate's limitations. There are some concentrates, that taste great (and may not be substituted by another), for a given period of time (whether it is by the concentrate's limitations, or simply the vaper's preference). Mix only what you can/want to vape in that time-period. This, too, is another benefit to doing SFTs; they can inform a DIYer what concentrates need more time, and which concentrates have a short working window.
- Flavor "A" may taste best. But, flavor "B" tastes almost as good and last weeks, even months, longer. So, if I want the ideal flavor, I may only be able to mix a week or two, at a time, Or, if I am concerned with longevity, I may choose to sacrifice a bit of taste, for being able to mix larger (longer lasting) batches. It is all about mixing what works best for me.
Now, how any of this may, or may not, apply to terpenes... I have no clue. Honestly, I care less about where my flavors derive from, than what they do for me. With the exception of "are the any inhalation safety concerns?"; I am mostly interested in how much I enjoy their taste. Untried, untested, components will always have a greater risk, than proven/tested ones. (But, as vapers, that rules out just about everything, as little has been given long-term inhalation study, as we use them.) Then, it ultimately becomes a matter of how much risk is any given individual willing to take. I would not begin to presume to have an informed opinion about that.
Eat an orange, breathe near a fir tree, use a steroid treatment, drink beer - you are consuming terpenes and related compounds, and in a gazillion other foods and situations too.
Confusion comes from a lack of understanding.... surprised a thread was closed here.
Confusion comes from a lack of understanding.... surprised a thread was closed here.
The thread in question, that was closed, was specifically pointed at a commonly associated "illegal drug's" extraction by the OP. Per the forum's rules (#16, and #34d & e); that is not acceptable here. Agree with it, or not, those are the rules.
Yes, one might make a case that those specific terpenes are not psychoactive, and discussion should be permitted. But, then, the door is open. Where do you draw the line? ECF has chosen to take the most direct way out, and say "no" to all of that particular plant's discussion, to remove as many possible grey areas as possible. (At least, until such a time comes, as it is globally accepted... ECF is an international forum.)
Each of us, individually, has a choice to agree... and participate, or go elsewhere. ECF, like any other forum, is a case of it being their ball, and their field, while we decide if we want to play. Know the rules. Follow the rules. Or, find a better suited forum... there are plenty. Seems pretty straight forward to me.
This specific thread; has not once (by the OP, or any replies) eluded to that particular prohibited subject matter, and does not warrant closure.
There are plenty of terpenes being used in flavor concentrate formulations. They are just not being disclosed as such. Whether it is protecting proprietary recipes, or not wanting to "upset" the masses, I couldn't begin to guess.
Personally, I think terpenes (generally speaking) are deserving of conversation. It is the only way we can ask appropriate questions, that lead to informative answers. With pure laboratory extracted terpenes (often associated with the perfume industry), one does need to be aware/informed as to the solvents, and carriers, which are used in conjunction with them (acetone, ammonia, and oil, to name just a couple). While they may be acceptable for skin contact, and secondary/casual inhalation; that does not automatically mean they are safe for vaping. Just like something may be perfectly fine for ingestion, one may not want to have it in their lungs. (Water is great to drink; but doesn't work so well in the lungs.
)
The thread in question, that was closed, was specifically pointed at a commonly associated "illegal drug's" extraction by the OP. Per the forum's rules (#16, and #34d & e); that is not acceptable here. Agree with it, or not, those are the rules.
Yes, one might make a case that those specific terpenes are not psychoactive, and discussion should be permitted. But, then, the door is open. Where do you draw the line? ECF has chosen to take the most direct way out, and say "no" to all of that particular plant's discussion, to remove as many possible grey areas as possible. (At least, until such a time comes, as it is globally accepted... ECF is an international forum.)
Each of us, individually, has a choice to agree... and participate, or go elsewhere. ECF, like any other forum, is a case of it being their ball, and their field, while we decide if we want to play. Know the rules. Follow the rules. Or, find a better suited forum... there are plenty. Seems pretty straight forward to me.
This specific thread; has not once (by the OP, or any replies) eluded to that particular prohibited subject matter, and does not warrant closure.
There are plenty of terpenes being used in flavor concentrate formulations. They are just not being disclosed as such. Whether it is protecting proprietary recipes, or not wanting to "upset" the masses, I couldn't begin to guess.
Personally, I think terpenes (generally speaking) are deserving of conversation. It is the only way we can ask appropriate questions, that lead to informative answers. With pure laboratory extracted terpenes (often associated with the perfume industry), one does need to be aware/informed as to the solvents, and carriers, which are used in conjunction with them (acetone, ammonia, and oil, to name just a couple). While they may be acceptable for skin contact, and secondary/casual inhalation; that does not automatically mean they are safe for vaping. Just like something may be perfectly fine for ingestion, one may not want to have it in their lungs. (Water is great to drink; but doesn't work so well in the lungs.
Thanks for the clarification about the thread in question, I assumed the thread was about terpenes in general not those specific examples. I agree that the ECF decision was good.
I also agree that discussion about terpenes in relation to vaping flavours is constructive and should be encouraged.
If I may add, and if not, I will gladly remove this, but the homeopathic claims re terpenoids are bogus.
Sure, lavender is is relaxing, but no more so than a warm bath.
Also, there is no such thing as a plant specific terpene. All terpenes can be derived from multiple sources.
Sure, lavender is is relaxing, but no more so than a warm bath.
Also, there is no such thing as a plant specific terpene. All terpenes can be derived from multiple sources.
You can synthesise just about anything these days, there a few liquid manufacturers that specialise in plant derived flavours but I would imagine that most are lab produced, or shed even!
I was going to post that exact info above.
LOL, DOH, edited cause Im an idiot.....
But really as to why some companies dont list Turpenes is probably cause it sounds like the word Turpentine and people will think liquid makers are using paint remover in eliquid.
Its similar to when vaping started and people freaked out over propalene glycol, saying ecigs had anti freeze? LOL
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Again, I sound like such a nag.... Natural or man made certain chemicals, flavorents, are NOT safe for ingestion or inhalation.
There are millions of naturally found plants, etc that are toxic and carcinogens.
For example; Arsenic found in many foods we eat every day. Its how its concentrated and treated that can kill you.
I understand and agree with that completely.
My point is that a discussion can be had with out any illicit topics needing to be brought up, even in a completely "natural" way.
The 'volatility' of terpenes might be what makes them so olfactorily pleasing. I notice juices made with them are much runnier, even less viscous than PG. I was trying to make a sample of (TFA) Banana Ripe and ended up making an entire 100ml bottle of it. Measuring ml by drips doesn't work with something that acts as a solvent.
I think it's really ironic, that chinese companies are already renaming their products for use with CBD/concentrate, as a loophole against the forthcoming FDA regulations. This forum's going to be in an awkward predicament, discussing products to be used with a subject matter it's forbidden to discuss. lol.
I think it's really ironic, that chinese companies are already renaming their products for use with CBD/concentrate, as a loophole against the forthcoming FDA regulations. This forum's going to be in an awkward predicament, discussing products to be used with a subject matter it's forbidden to discuss. lol.
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