Why don't people want e-liquid labels changed?

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AndriaD

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My point of bringing up my daughter was to show that she is part of a huge segment of the vape community. She is not a rarity (Well to me she is one in a bazillion :hubba:) but more the norm. I have no clue how old you are but I am in my early 50's. I now find much more fun in quiet enjoyment but I used to love to be part of the scene so to speak. Guess what....young adults still do and their entertainment is somewhat different then my generations was. It is more extreme I would say, less confined, and way more social. These youngins live in a generation of social media, that sometimes makes meeting up with people you have never met, but share a common interest with easier so if this is what gets them off cigs and into a much healthier thing I say Wonderful. I also don't know the last time you have gone into an actual vape shop vs gas station/tobacco store. I have to tell you that many times you will see Dad Mom or even Gram or Gramps come in with their younger relative to learn about this new world. I went to a cloud comp recently and was amazed at the wide age range there. One of the gals with us brought her Mom so that she could experience the fun first hand. A week later I was in the shop and they happily told me that the Mom came in and got a nice beginners set up. She saw firsthand a large group of people that were actually having fun with the very thing that helped them to quit cigs. Go figure!! If that isn't great, I don't know what is.

So yah, we disagree. Oh boy do we. I cannot fathom how anybody cannot see this as a positive spin. :rolleyes:o_O:confused:

STANDING OVATION!!!

I say this to anyone who'll hold still long enough, that e-cigarettes are a MIRACLE, because not only do they make quitting smoking POSSIBLE, they make it fun and ENJOYABLE!!!

MIRACULOUS!!! Not dirty, filthy, shameful, adults-only, or any of that other puritan-speak!

Andria
 

Lessifer

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My point of bringing up my daughter was to show that she is part of a huge segment of the vape community. She is not a rarity (Well to me she is one in a bazillion :hubba:) but more the norm. I have no clue how old you are but I am in my early 50's. I now find much more fun in quiet enjoyment but I used to love to be part of the scene so to speak. Guess what....young adults still do and their entertainment is somewhat different then my generations was. It is more extreme I would say, less confined, and way more social. These youngins live in a generation of social media, that sometimes makes meeting up with people you have never met, but share a common interest with easier so if this is what gets them off cigs and into a much healthier thing I say Wonderful. I also don't know the last time you have gone into an actual vape shop vs gas station/tobacco store. I have to tell you that many times you will see Dad Mom or even Gram or Gramps come in with their younger relative to learn about this new world. I went to a cloud comp recently and was amazed at the wide age range there. One of the gals with us brought her Mom so that she could experience the fun first hand. A week later I was in the shop and they happily told me that the Mom came in and got a nice beginners set up. She saw firsthand a large group of people that were actually having fun with the very thing that helped them to quit cigs. Go figure!! If that isn't great, I don't know what is.

So yah, we disagree. Oh boy do we. I cannot fathom how anybody cannot see this as a positive spin. :rolleyes:o_O:confused:

I think of it this way, which is better? Do we want people to switch to vaping after decades of smoking, when their health is failing? Or, would we rather have a generation grow up never smoking to begin with?

The fact is, people start smoking every day, people of all ages. I think if they started vaping instead, the net gain in actual public health would be tremendous.

BTW I'm quoting your posts because I believe DeAnna is ignoring me, or just not bothering to read my posts :)

@Jman8 good to see you!
 

AndriaD

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I think of it this way, which is better? Do we want people to switch to vaping after decades of smoking, when their health is failing? Or, would we rather have a generation grow up never smoking to begin with?

The fact is, people start smoking every day, people of all ages. I think if they started vaping instead, the net gain in actual public health would be tremendous.



Andria
 

kaahn

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Truth be told...if govt had its way 100yrs ago we wouldn't be driving, flying, going into space, talking on cell phones, watching TV, listening to radio, taking hot showers, using indoor plumbing, or even commenting on this forum thread for fear of someone getting hurt. Risks are why we live with the creature comforts we all are use to.
 

Jman8

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To answer your question about cloud competitions.
I think it's a stigma that does not serve the vaping community well because it creates a negative distraction that overshadows the greater cause and purpose of vaping. I think it does a terrible injustice to every heart wrenching story we hear in how vaping literally changed someone's life for the better that was already struggling with soo many health problems as a result of smoking cigs...for many, having vaping as a option saved their life. Those who are using vaping as a competitive sport/hobby have the least to lose if the hammer comes down on vaping because clearly, they don't have respiratory problems. They can just go back to smoking or move on to something else, but it's the vapers who do have respiratory problems that stand to lose the most, including their life if they return to cigs.

We see soo many hardworking dedicated people from individuals to organizations rising up in this fight and it's these very stories that are the heart and soul of their foundation in which they fight to protect vaping. Have you ever once heard cloud competitions being used in any presentation as a bases to defend vaping? No you don't because it serves no importance to the cause and actually harms it because no matter which way you look at it, there just isn't a way to spin it in a positive light.

Now with that said, i still don't think it should be banned. I think adults have every right to engage in using vaping as a game, sport, or hobby if they wish, even though i think it does reflect badly on vaping at a time when vaping doesn't need this kind attention or another nail in it's coffin.

Speaking of nails, the FDA already has their hammer out when comes to kid-like marketing and packaging, it's just a matter of will they stop there, or go for flavoring and possibly nic. I think if the industry shows some restraint by self regulating, flavoring might survive, which is why i fully support the majority of vaping businesses that share this view and partake in no kid-like marketing tactics or packaging. I am just grateful it's only the minority of vaping businesses that seem to not be able to differentiate between kid marketing and adult marketing and hopefully the regulators will take that into consideration and just go after the kiddie marketing and packaging and not flavoring or possibly nic.


Responding to this post as well and will just note that I liked this post and was the first (perhaps only) person to like it.

That doesn't mean I agree with everything, but I like how you worded the first paragraph as your opinion on things and IS how I have taken most of what you are arguing for in this thread, as your opinion and thoughts on the issue(s).

I do agree that if one is using (or has used) vaping as way to cease smoking, that the barrage of stories about cloud competitions does do an injustice to their own story, which strikes me as the majority of vapers current reason for vaping. Yet, I also think this majority hasn't been very consistent with what it is they want in terms of "reasonable regulation." Circa 2010, it was then about "do not treat this product as a drug" for prescriptions only will prevent people making the switch as easily as they might. So, TPTB said to vaping industry, then stop making claims that make it seem like eCigs contain some sort of miracle drug to lead potential users (and current smokers) to never wanting to smoke again. The industry, for most part, agreed to this concession. And as I noted before, when the Judge Leon ruling came forth saying this was more like a recreational tobacco product, the vaping community treated that as MAJOR victory. If not a drug, and more like tobacco, then that was then seen a very good political reality going forward. But flash-forward to 2013 (and to the present) and now "we" are unhappy it is treated as a recreational (tobacco) product. Cause, ya know, it has helped so many people stop smoking and that story shouldn't be ignored.

In essence, I think we are still fighting that first battle, but also dealing with ANTZ doctrine that goes back 50 years with regards to anything having to do with 'cigarette.' I think manufacturers (sellers) have a good handle on things, and are treating it as recreational product. And I think there are enough vaping forums and word of mouth advertising for any smoker to realize that this can be a product that leads to cessation, as may be desired by (potential) users. Thus, it is all good for vaping community, except for the whole ANTZ doctrine that seeks to heavily restrict and considers banning a "reasonable regulation."

As a recreational product, cloud competitions make sense. And as something that is 'extreme' and both visible in culture and makes for good visuals for presenting something new, I think it holds appeal. To me, the positive spin is it shows anyone that these eCig things can produce a lot of what looks like smoke. Some might think, like I did before I got into vaping, that there's no way those things could produce as much "smoke" as what a 'real cigarette' does. Yet, cloud comps make it abundantly clear that they produce far more, and that it is not smoke. Looks like smoke, but is not smoke. Which is very interesting. I also think cloud comps are showing society that it is in fact a recreational product. And there are no recreational activities that I'm aware of that hold zero harm. A game of tag could be harmful unless everyone involved is there purely to have fun, and aware of some very basic ground rules. A competitive game in a swimming pool is the same, though likely more "extreme" than similar game being played on land as the risk is you could always go under water and who knows what happens to you then? But given some ground rules and people there who are caring / considerate, chances are you'll have lots of fun and not get in any danger. Though you could, and that can't be ignored. Name a recreational activity, any recreational activity, and do realize that if something goes wrong, you (or someone you know) could be seriously hurt. In fact, there are many popular recreational activities where people have been seriously hurt, and yet we humans still do them, knowing that at any moment another serious injury could occur. Risk / reward type stuff.

But I do think like DeAnna2112 noted, as many others have, that it is just begging FDA to take a harder look at what this whole vaping culture is up to. And is likely leading to more scrutiny and zealous regulations than the smoking cessation crowd deserves. But the genie is out of the bottle, and because the product is now more recreational than therapeutic (for good reason), it can't be one segment of vaping community that gets to dictate how the genie behaves. Even if that segment is the overwhelming majority. I would say cessation / reduction is still clearly king in the vaping community and that most outsiders are well aware of this. Zealots are going to continue telling a false narrative to keep their work alive, while vaping community will continue being happy that the product exists and (for now) is available on the open market for anyone to try, enjoy and do what they will with it.
 

Lessifer

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Here's a quote from that speech I linked to earlier, the lead up to this was discussing how DAILY usage for e-cigarettes among teens is somewhere around 1% of the population:

"Certainly, it looks to me to be a really powerful diversion away from smoking, in the most important group. I mean if something works to create less than 1%, this is end game figures, this is how smoking ends, not through prohibition, but through the enjoyment of something better. Not through being controlled, but people taking the power back into their own hands to have recreational nicotine on the terms that you choose. This, our powerful revolution, is shaking the very foundations of the TC establishment."
 

Lessifer

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Hey Lessifer, don't you dare to end-game on me, I want cigars to still be available when I'll fancy one..... :smokie:
You know I'm a "whatever floats your boat"-er, I would not deprive anyone of a leisure activity that doesn't directly harm someone else. If someone chooses to smoke, that is their choice, I just want them to also have the option to vape :)
 

Jode

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This. Just this.

The world is a dangerous place. Get over it. If you don't know what something is, you shouldn't be drinking it. If your kids don't know this, you're not doing your job as a parent. If they're too young to have learned this, supervise them.

As to appealing to kids, I started drinking years before I started smoking, and I started smoking years before I could buy either, without someone breaking a law or two. Kids, especially tweens and teens, want to do "grown-up stuff," always have, and always will. Want to keep tweens from vaping? Label them as baby formula. No 12 year old wants to be seen as a baby in the eyes of their peers. If you make it look dangerous, then said 12 year old must be brave, and adult to handle such a dangerous thing, they must be "cool." They probably wear leather jackets, and play pool in a leather jacket, with tough biker types. Or maybe they are more the rough, tough cattle drivin' type, who likes to gaze across the heard at sunset, and tell stories about "flavor country." Any of this sound familiar to you guys? Kids don't need ads to get these ideas, these are the stories they've been telling each other about sex, drugs, and rock n' roll since the dawn of time. Listen in on any group of typical 14 year old boys when they think they're not being overheard, if they're to be believed, they're all the greatest lovers, fighters, and rock stars of their generation, can't you tell my how they can smoke a whole cigarette without turning green?
I'm old enough to know how stupid I was to believe these things at 12, or at 14, or at 17, but I'm not so old that I've forgotten that I DID believe these things. I don't believe I was any smarter at that age than kids are now, and I have enough relatives of that age to know, they haven't gotten any smarter. They want to be "grown-ups" just as much as any of us did at that age, and a label that tells them that vaping is dangerous adult stuff is a bright big neon sign saying "do this, and you'll look more grown up!!!"


My my I enjoyed reading this!!! :thumbs:
 

Jode

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I think of it this way, which is better? Do we want people to switch to vaping after decades of smoking, when their health is failing? Or, would we rather have a generation grow up never smoking to begin with?

The fact is, people start smoking every day, people of all ages. I think if they started vaping instead, the net gain in actual public health would be tremendous.

BTW I'm quoting your posts because I believe DeAnna is ignoring me, or just not bothering to read my posts :)

@Jman8 good to see you!

Yup I agree and that is why I don't talk too much about the age restriction thing because if I was to be honest, I would rather see that tween/teen vaping then lighting up. And ya, she probably is ignoring you. Your views are very scary to her more then likely. Many times parents of junior high/high schoolers truly believe they have more control then they actually do with what their kids do out of sight. I am through that part of my life and I am now just thankful my daughter and I made it through to the otherside intact and still respecting each other.
 

Martnargh

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A few pages of jibber jabber tell me in the forums some are kneelers and some are fighters. Good job everyone. Kids dont need colors and toons to grasp their attention, anything taboo to them consumes their souls. My 15 month old son prefers rocks and grass to the stuffed animals we provide. Also indoors, he seems to enjoy turning off the tv, pressing buttons on the controls, reconfiguring cell phones at random and just about anything we say "no! Bad!" to. If he chugs a bottle of juice, despite the lable on it, it isnt the juice company fault, it doesnt show labels are inticing to kids, it only says he's a normal baby boy and we're dumbass parents.
This curiosity of his isnt going to go away, probably ever, we have human nature to thank for that. Youth has been doing stuff youth has no business doing since the beginning of time. It didnt just start now with vaping.
 

caramel

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I think of it this way, which is better? Do we want people to switch to vaping after decades of smoking, when their health is failing? Or, would we rather have a generation grow up never smoking to begin with?
!

Neither. They want you to smoke cigarettes while they tax you heavily. Look no further than to the recent spat between Swedish Match and FDA over removing the "this is not a SAFE alternative to cigarettes" warning on snus. Of course, there is no SAFE alternative to anything. Not even tap water is a SAFE alternative to cigarettes. It is SafeR but not Safe. Eventually FDA won. No more comments.
 

VapieDan

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As a juice maker, my labels have the verbiage "May contain nicotine, keep out of reach of children. Must be 18 or older." I think it's the responsible thing to do. I don't want a bottle of my juice to be cause for speculation if an under age person is caught by their parents, and the kid falls back on the bottle claiming they didn't know. That has lawsuit written all over it.

Let's just placate the FDA, " May end life as we know it on this planet".
 

NealBJr

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This. Just this.

The world is a dangerous place. Get over it. If you don't know what something is, you shouldn't be drinking it. If your kids don't know this, you're not doing your job as a parent. If they're too young to have learned this, supervise them.

As to appealing to kids, I started drinking years before I started smoking, and I started smoking years before I could buy either, without someone breaking a law or two. Kids, especially tweens and teens, want to do "grown-up stuff," always have, and always will. Want to keep tweens from vaping? Label them as baby formula. No 12 year old wants to be seen as a baby in the eyes of their peers. If you make it look dangerous, then said 12 year old must be brave, and adult to handle such a dangerous thing, they must be "cool." They probably wear leather jackets, and play pool in a leather jacket, with tough biker types. Or maybe they are more the rough, tough cattle drivin' type, who likes to gaze across the heard at sunset, and tell stories about "flavor country." Any of this sound familiar to you guys? Kids don't need ads to get these ideas, these are the stories they've been telling each other about sex, drugs, and rock n' roll since the dawn of time. Listen in on any group of typical 14 year old boys when they think they're not being overheard, if they're to be believed, they're all the greatest lovers, fighters, and rock stars of their generation, can't you tell my how they can smoke a whole cigarette without turning green?
I'm old enough to know how stupid I was to believe these things at 12, or at 14, or at 17, but I'm not so old that I've forgotten that I DID believe these things. I don't believe I was any smarter at that age than kids are now, and I have enough relatives of that age to know, they haven't gotten any smarter. They want to be "grown-ups" just as much as any of us did at that age, and a label that tells them that vaping is dangerous adult stuff is a bright big neon sign saying "do this, and you'll look more grown up!!!"

Well said. Earlier today I held up one of my Ejuice bottles to my 7 yr old son and I asked him "do you know what this is?". He said "yes,it is for your cigarette thing... but it's not like the bad cigarette you used before" I then asked him "what are the rules about this bottle?" he replied "that it is yours." Even though I knew he knows the answer, I just wanted to re-iterate.. "It is juice for my E-cigarette. It can make you sick if you get it on your skin, or if you drink it. Do not touch one if you see it, and if you want it moved, ask mommy or daddy to move it".


That's a talk I think every parent should have with their child if you vape. My ejuice bottles are kept on a high shelf along with my mods. ALL my bottles have childproof caps. I keep the same size and shape bottles so there's no confusion. None of my bottles have labels on them since I re-use old bottles. I did have one scare a while back, and I have nobody to blame but myself. I don't buy Ejuice in glass bottles since they don't have childproof tops. If I did, I wold transfer one to one of my plastic bottles. I tell my 7 year old that vaping is like a medicine to get me off of the bad cigarettes.

I could go into the talks I had with my son about illegal drugs, but I think that's not allowed here. I do tell him some of the stories that have happened in real life, and he's lucky enough to know the "after effects" of some drugs from seeing one of our family members' "outcome". He's going into the marines, an ships out July 20th... Hopefully I've done my part good enough, which is what any parent can wish.
 

jpargana

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Well said. Earlier today I held up one of my Ejuice bottles to my 7 yr old son and I asked him "do you know what this is?". He said "yes,it is for your cigarette thing... but it's not like the bad cigarette you used before" I then asked him "what are the rules about this bottle?" he replied "that it is yours." Even though I knew he knows the answer, I just wanted to re-iterate.. "It is juice for my E-cigarette. It can make you sick if you get it on your skin, or if you drink it. Do not touch one if you see it, and if you want it moved, ask mommy or daddy to move it".


That's a talk I think every parent should have with their child if you vape. My ejuice bottles are kept on a high shelf along with my mods. ALL my bottles have childproof caps. I keep the same size and shape bottles so there's no confusion. None of my bottles have labels on them since I re-use old bottles. I did have one scare a while back, and I have nobody to blame but myself. I don't buy Ejuice in glass bottles since they don't have childproof tops. If I did, I wold transfer one to one of my plastic bottles. I tell my 7 year old that vaping is like a medicine to get me off of the bad cigarettes.

I could go into the talks I had with my son about illegal drugs, but I think that's not allowed here. I do tell him some of the stories that have happened in real life, and he's lucky enough to know the "after effects" of some drugs from seeing one of our family members' "outcome". He's going into the marines, an ships out July 20th... Hopefully I've done my part good enough, which is what any parent can wish.


Oh, but that is called PARENTING, and for too much people, it requires waaaay too much effort.
Better have Govt take care of things for us. /sarcasm

If a childs gets ill after drinking a bottle of e-liquid with "childish cartoons" in the label, are parents going to sue the manufacturer?

Is the manufacturer responsible for taking proper care of other's people children?

Bleach is sold by the gallon bottle, and I have yet to see a bottle of bleach with a child-proof cap.

There are many more incidents with cleaning products than there are with e-liquid. And when those happen, it's the bad parenting that is put under a negative light - not an industry that makes effective products for their intended use, and to make them so, *must* use toxic substances in them.
 

mcclintock

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    Kids like cartoon characters but don't want to eat them. Worst thing you could put on a bottle is a picture of food, for example fruit just like on a drink or candy.

    Vaping should be kept from the underage, but no more than cigs. If somehow they can sneak a cig but not a vape, that's bad. If vaping is restricted for adults, that would be also excessive limitation to the underage, but you never know they may be the only ones that can still get it.

    Vaping should be more popular than smoking, even among the underage, as it's a better product. Of course, the concern about smoking is it's not popular because it's a good product, but because it's addictive. However, if the argument can be made that vaping is less addictive, especially in the low-nic area preferred by never-smokers, if it becomes more popular than smoking (as it already is among the underage? or am I confused by the propaganda too on that?) then it's truly because people believe it's a better product.
     

    caramel

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    Reading this thread requires adequate equipment. :p

    nbc_suit_worker_image_via_shutterstock.jpg
     
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