Why is e-liquid selling at such high prices ?

[Midniteoyl]

I think people should buy what they can afford. At the same time, I think they should drop the resentment when, for whatever reason, they can't afford a bottle of US made liquid or an authentic mod. (I also think they should immediately join the most militant labor union they can find, but that's a subject for another thread.)


Really? I do. The ugly undercurrent in these threads always seems to be all about some crazy sense of consumer entitlement run completely amok. "You're just a regular shmuck like me! How dare you make something I can't afford! I think you're making money, you .......!"


And I don't think anyone would disagree with you there. Such people are crooks. But that's not what the opening thread was about, and it's not the topic on which we've all been are commenting.

I dont see it that way at all.. In fact, I see the opposite: Those that can afford the $200-300 'originals' always chiding those that cant. And I, personally, dont have a problem with people making money off me. I just dont like to be told Alaska Pollock is real crab...

 

[Mazinny]

I think people should buy what they can afford. At the same time, I think they should drop the resentment when, for whatever reason, they can't afford a bottle of US made liquid or an authentic mod. (I also think they should immediately join the most militant labor union they can find, but that's a subject for another thread.)


Really? I do. The ugly undercurrent in these threads always seems to be all about some crazy sense of consumer entitlement run completely amok. "You're just a regular shmuck like me! How dare you make something I can't afford! I think you're making money, you .......!"


And I don't think anyone would disagree with you there. Such people are crooks. But that's not what the opening thread was about, and it's not the topic on which we've all been are commenting.

Well, i am reading the same thread you are, and i don't get the sense of "resentment", nor a whiff of an "ugly undercurrent" etc... If you read everything through the lens of your political philosophy, you could see what you want to see i suppose.

I reread the original post as well, and again, didn't see any sign of resentment. He just seems to be saying that he doesn't see a difference between the taste of Chinese made juice, and some of the U.S. made equivalents that sell for six times as much. He seems to be concerned about quality control in China, however, and DIY's as a result. I personally am not as concerned about quality control in the larger Chinese vendors, especially as compared to some U.S. vendors operating in a completely unregulated market, a couple of which i have witnessed making juice.

 

[Flt Simulation]

Folks here keep saying that quality costs money ... and I agree with that ... but with most juice on the market, that don't apply.

Why do some juice makers charge .23 cents per ml, while some others charge close to a buck for 1 ml of there "Gourmet / Boutique" juice?

Look ... "Gourmet" or not, almost all of it is nothing but glycerin, unflavored Nic liquid and flavorings.

And you know very well, that the expensive juice uses various combinations of the same flavorings that the guys selling cheap juice are.

The only difference that I can see is some of these "Gourmet / Boutique" juice companies have found a combination of flavors that many people really like (IE: Bobas) and charge big bucks for it .... because "they can" .... not because it cost so much more to actually make.
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No matter how you slice and dice it .... Well known popular Boutique juice has a BIG BIG profit margin!
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[WillyZee]

In my signature... for one.

they look interesting ... I do see some stuff I'd like to check out.

 

[schuff]

Why juice is expensive has been brought up a million times and the answer is simple. You are paying for convenience.

When you smoked you could have bought a $40 machine, 1 lb of tobacco and some paper. Then you would have been down to about 75 cents a pack.

Why do you see smokers lining up to buy packs of smokes though? Easy answer, because buying them is easier and convenient.

 

[DeliciousClouds]

And you know very well, that the expensive juice uses various combinations of the same flavorings that the guys selling cheap juice are.

Maybe some do, but others certainly don't. Think of organically flavored liquids and flavorings that are extracted without alcohol. Alcohol extraction is cheap, but it tastes nasty to me (can be solved with steeping, but still). Then there are brands which source their flavorings exclusively from American companies as opposed to Asian or European ones. The profit margin might still be high, but don't tell me that doesn't factor into the costs.

I'm not sure if there are any gourmet liquid brands that actually do the flavor-extraction in-house for absolute control. But again, that would raise the costs if they did.

 

[Tangaroav]

Well, i am reading the same thread you are, and i don't get the sense of "resentment", nor a whiff of an "ugly undercurrent" etc... If you read everything through the lens of your political philosophy, you could see what you want to see i suppose.

I reread the original post as well, and again, didn't see any sign of resentment. He just seems to be saying that he doesn't see a difference between the taste of Chinese made juice, and some of the U.S. made equivalents that sell for six times as much. He seems to be concerned about quality control in China, however, and DIY's as a result. I personally am not as concerned about quality control in the larger Chinese vendors, especially as compared to some U.S. vendors operating in a completely unregulated market, a couple of which i have witnessed making juice.

Although I love to be a DIY'er I just ordered some Dekang juice at very fair price. The feedback I read on ECF concerning Dekang removed a lot of the worries I had about Dekang. Maybe I had prejudices that were fooging my views.

 

[Flt Simulation]

Delicious Clouds ...

Your right ... naturally extracted flavors to include naturally extracted tobacco (NET) flavors do cost more than chemical flavors from big flavor companies like Capella, TFA, LorAnn, Flavor West, etc ... but the majority of the juice on the market is made from various chemical flavors purchased from the big flavor companies such as I listed.

I can make juice for about .10 cents per ml. These vendors that sell ready-made juice buy there glycerin, Nic liquid and flavoring in bulk quantities, and can make there juice for less than what it costs me to make it.

Yes, they have the cost of "doing business" that I don't have, but do they really need a 500% (or more) markup to offset that?

 

[Mazinny]

Although I love to be a DIY'er I just ordered some Dekang juice at very fair price. The feedback I read on ECF concerning Dekang removed a lot of the worries I had about Dekang. Maybe I had prejudices that were fooging my views.

I don't use Hangsen and DeKang anymore, but when i vaped RY4's Hangsen and DeKang where some of my favorites regardless of price. Make sure you buy them from a reputable vendor with good feedback though ( as anyone should with U.S. made liquids too btw ). I have heard rumors that there is counterfeit DeKang and Hangsen in the market as well as refilled and repackaged. Don't know if it's true, but doesn't hurt to exercise due diligence.

 

[DeliciousClouds]

Yes, they have the cost of "doing business" that I don't have, but do they really need a 500% (or more) markup to offset that?

That's the big unknown. All I know is that if you run such a business, you need real-estate, production equipment (some claim to use pharmaceutical-grade equipment), raw materials, workers that need a salary, insurance and pensions, a company liability insurance, costs for promotional materials, and for attending various conventions. And a responsible company also needs some money in the bank to cover a rough patch or to cope with increased demands (investments).

Now I know nothing about American salaries, so I don't know if the following example is greatly exaggerated or not. But let's say each regular worker earns about 2500 dollars per month at a gourmet liquid company, and the company has 5 workers. With those numbers, you need to ship at least 962 bottles with an average price of 13 dollars per bottle to just cover their salaries. Each month.

Keeping in mind that gourmet liquid is in most cases not exactly a mass-production affair, and factoring in that some flavors may bomb, it just doesn't seem all that odd to me.

Sure, the Chinese have to take these costs into consideration as well. But they have advantage of mass-production and vastly lower wages on their side. If you ship a million bottles per month, then of course you can sell decent quality liquid at 5 dollars per bottle and still procure a very, very nice profit.

 

[Kropotkin]

Well, i am reading the same thread you are, and i don't get the sense of "resentment", nor a whiff of an "ugly undercurrent" etc... If you read everything through the lens of your political philosophy, you could see what you want to see i suppose.

What "lens"? It's you guys who are doubting the perfect wisdom of the Invisible Hand, not me.

I never pretended to be a fan of capitalism - far from it! - yet I'm constantly forced to stick up for cottage industries in these threads. Why is that, do you suppose, if this chronic whining about prices has nothing to do with "resentment"?

I reread the original post as well, and again, didn't see any sign of resentment. He just seems to be saying that he doesn't see a difference between the taste of Chinese made juice, and some of the U.S. made equivalents that sell for six times as much. He seems to be concerned about quality control in China, however, and DIY's as a result. I personally am not as concerned about quality control in the larger Chinese vendors, especially as compared to some U.S. vendors operating in a completely unregulated market, a couple of which i have witnessed making juice.

Then, according to the doctrine of the free market, you should both shop accordingly, and all will come right.

Where's the problem?

 

[Tangaroav]

I think people should buy what they can afford. At the same time, I think they should drop the resentment when, for whatever reason, they can't afford a bottle of US made liquid or an authentic mod. (I also think they should immediately join the most militant labor union they can find, but that's a subject for another thread.)


Really? I do. The ugly undercurrent in these threads always seems to be all about some crazy sense of consumer entitlement run completely amok. "You're just a regular shmuck like me! How dare you make something I can't afford! I think you're making money, you .......!"

1- Unions have brought GB citizens to their knees not too long ago. To much power to any segment of society is bad to all of society. Communism and overly socialist countries have all felt it. But you are right that's for another thread.

2- The current price of localy available e-juice, which is at least 10 to 20 times its cost to make, drove me to become a DYI'er. I do not know where you see or feel resentment. The ONLY entitlements I have is the freedom to spend my money where I see fit and the freedom of speech which allows me to voice an opinion or question any public offering, commercial or other.

I really don't see why this makes one a shmuck, ( Oxford defines shmuck as a '' A foolish or contemptible person ''). I don't think that's what you really meant but that's what it means.

 

[Mazinny]

What "lens"? It's you guys who are doubting the perfect wisdom of the Invisible Hand, not me.

I never pretended to be a fan of capitalism - far from it! - yet I'm constantly forced to stick up for cottage industries in these threads. Why is that, do you suppose, if this chronic whining about prices has nothing to do with "resentment"?


Then, according to the doctrine of the free market, you should both shop accordingly, and all will come right.

Where's the problem?

I never thought for a second that you are a fan of capitalism ! Do you think there's any subtlety to your avatar ? wait are you implying it's ironic ? Why do you feel "forced" to jump in to tell people to stop whining. You could state your opinion without attacking others and calling them whiners and resentful etc...

There isn't a problem that i can see, why do you see one ? It's just people discussing causes for pricing.

 

[Tangaroav]

That's the big unknown. All I know is that if you run such a business, you need real-estate, production equipment (some claim to use pharmaceutical-grade equipment), raw materials, workers that need a salary, insurance and pensions, a company liability insurance, costs for promotional materials, and for attending various conventions. And a responsible company also needs some money in the bank to cover a rough patch or to cope with increased demands (investments).

Now I know nothing about American salaries, so I don't know if the following example is greatly exaggerated or not. But let's say each regular worker earns about 2500 dollars per month at a gourmet liquid company, and the company has 5 workers. With those numbers, you need to ship at least 962 bottles with an average price of 13 dollars per bottle to just cover their salaries. Each month.

Keeping in mind that gourmet liquid is in most cases not exactly a mass-production affair, and factoring in that some flavors may bomb, it just doesn't seem all that odd to me.

Five workers making e-juices and properly equiped can make at least half a million bottles of e-juice/month. Do the calculations, that's a huge amount of $$$$$$ when you say that less than a thousand pays their salary.

 

[DeliciousClouds]

Five workers making e-juices and properly equiped can make at least half a million bottles of e-juice/month. Do the calculations, that's a huge amount of $$$$$$ when you say that less than a thousand pays their salary.

I'm sure they can, but the question is.. Do they actually sell so many bottles? I mean vendors like Five Pawns, Vapor Chef, Virgin Vapor, etc.

Maybe they do. And in that case you are of course very, very right. Maybe they really are the Apple of the e-liquid branch.

 

[Flt Simulation]

Now I know nothing about American salaries, so I don't know if the following example is greatly exaggerated or not. But let's say each regular worker earns about 2500 dollars per month at a gourmet liquid company ........

My guess is that the majority of the employees that work for these juice vendors make minimum wage, or slightly more.

$2,500 per month to mix and bottle juice ..... not on your life!
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And a "Pension Plan" .... not on your life!

 

[Mazinny]

Now I know nothing about American salaries, so I don't know if the following example is greatly exaggerated or not. But let's say each regular worker earns about 2500 dollars per month at a gourmet liquid company, and the company has 5 workers. With those numbers, you need to ship at least 962 bottles with an average price of 13 dollars per bottle to just cover their salaries. Each month.

Keeping in mind that gourmet liquid is in most cases not exactly a mass-production affair, and factoring in that some flavors may bomb, it just doesn't seem all that odd to me.

Sure, the Chinese have to take these costs into consideration as well. But they have advantage of mass-production and vastly lower wages on their side. If you ship a million bottles per month, then of course you can sell decent quality liquid at 5 dollars per bottle and still procure a very, very nice profit.

you make a good point, but why would you need five workers for shipping 962 bottles ? I would imagine a part time worker with no benefits could do that in an hour a day.

 

[Midniteoyl]

Delicious Clouds ...

Your right ... naturally extracted flavors to include naturally extracted tobacco (NET) flavors do cost more than chemical flavors from big flavor companies like Capella, TFA, LorAnn, Flavor West, etc ... but the majority of the juice on the market is made from various chemical flavors purchased from the big flavor companies such as I listed.

I can make juice for about .10 cents per ml. These vendors that sell ready-made juice buy there glycerin, Nic liquid and flavoring in bulk quantities, and can make there juice for less than what it costs me to make it.

Yes, they have the cost of "doing business" that I don't have, but do they really need a 500% (or more) markup to offset that?

Again, in my sig is a NET vendor who charges the same as the 'avg' synthetic price.. And he's still doing ok.

 

[Midniteoyl]

What "lens"? It's you guys who are doubting the perfect wisdom of the Invisible Hand, not me.

I never pretended to be a fan of capitalism - far from it! - yet I'm constantly forced to stick up for cottage industries in these threads. Why is that, do you suppose, if this chronic whining about prices has nothing to do with "resentment"?


Then, according to the doctrine of the free market, you should both shop accordingly, and all will come right.

Where's the problem?

Not doubting the 'Invisible Hand' (hate that, btw) at all.. In fact, we are the ones actively participating in it and are causing the 'self-regulation' Just 'cause the price is high now, doesnt mean it will in be in 6 months when everyone here, and just starting, catches on to the fact it can be cheaper. Such is the way of every new trend.

 

[Kropotkin]

There isn't a problem that i can see, why do you see one ? It's just people discussing causes for pricing.

Yes, it is . . . and if the last bunch of posts hasn't proven my point, then nothing will.



You all have a lovely evening. I've really enjoyed this discussion - thank you.