Why is e-liquid selling at such high prices ?

[Mazinny]

Which translates into their customers, both while they are using Blu and after they've stopped using Blu.
I don't know the exact cost of their new building but I'm pretty sure it's at least $1M and they moved there about 2 years after they started. That also includes preparing their old place for an FDA crackdown the same year they opened.
I don't know if you know how business loans work but that tells me they've been raking it in.
Just because they're not looked at as a good place on ECF (which they were at one time) doesn't mean they don't have customers. Go look at their pictures on FB and tell me they don't have customers.

I admit, i don't have a clue how big their retail business is, but i'm not sure if you do either. All i'm going by is anecdotal evidence. Do you think the banks would have given them the loan for the new building if they did not have the Blu contract ?

You are also making a big assumption that Blu customers will move on to Johnson Creek liquid after they move on to PV's. I am a former Blu user who had no idea that Johnson Creek provided their juice, and as of yet have not tried Johnson Creek retail juice. My experience is that a large percentage of cigalike users are smoking cigarettes as well, and a decent percentage of those that aren't, go back to cigarettes. Those that move onto PV's, i don't feel have any loyalty to Johnson Creek even if they have heard of them. Johnson Creek lucked into a very profitable contract with Blu.

Admittedly, most of what i've said is based on anecdotal evidence and personal experience and interaction with Blu users, but i doubt you have a breakdown of their sales either.

I don't really feel that strongly about this to be honest, just pointed out a personal observation ! I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying, and this is really a tangential point, but if you wanna be right about this as well, i will cede the point

 

[Mazinny]

You are right about prices increasing with regulations.

I think the complications for application for product approval are over rated. Keeping in mind that they are ONLY mixing already approved products, PG, VG and food flavorings. It is the nicotine that those regulations will target and only approved ''mixers'' will be able to get it, thus killing DIY.

... and If THAT does not kill DIY, I would not be surprised to see PG and VG being regulated. The idea here is to control and to profit from vaperizers.

I actually feel prices will go down after regulation, due to economies of scale. The cost of application for a certain flavor, is a one time cost. Only big pocketed enterprises like Big Tobacco, nJoy and a few others ( possibly deKang and Hangsen ) could afford the cost. Once they have permission there will be huge competition between them to capture market share, and build what they hope will be lifelong customers. I actually foresee a 30 ml bottle going for 3 or 4 dollars. Remember we are talking huge volume here, scales of magnitude greater than what current eliquid makers produce. I am not taking into consideration any possible sin taxes that may be levied, mind you.

 

[Myk]

I admit, i don't have a clue how big their retail business is, but i'm not sure if you do either. All i'm going by is anecdotal evidence. Do you think the banks would have given them the loan for the new building if they did not have the Blu contract ?

You are also making a big assumption that Blu customers will move on to Johnson Creek liquid after they move on to PV's. I am a former Blu user who had no idea that Johnson Creek provided their juice, and as of yet have not tried Johnson Creek retail juice. My experience is that a large percentage of cigalike users are smoking cigarettes as well, and a decent percentage of those that aren't, go back to cigarettes. Those that move onto PV's, i don't feel have any loyalty to Johnson Creek even if they have heard of them. Johnson Creek lucked into a very profitable contract with Blu.

Admittedly, most of what i've said is based on anecdotal evidence and personal experience and interaction with Blu users, but i doubt you have a breakdown of their sales either.

I don't really feel that strongly about this to be honest, just pointed out a personal observation ! I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying, and this is really a tangential point, but if you wanna be right about this as well, i will cede the point

I used to spend a lot of time on JC's page before I went DIY. I've seen how many people come from Blu. I've also seen how big their stock of Vea's were and they sold out in days.
This was a carto stock which has nothing to do with Blu business. https://www.facebook.com/jcsmokejui...2_n.jpg&size=2048,1033&fbid=10150936117332912

They also show their bottle filler which has nothing to do with Blu. They're not a tiny operation.

I'm sure they wouldn't have got that loan without the Blu contract. Part of that is because Blu is advertising for them. It could be they give Blu the liquid at cost for that advertising (or did, it seems to be less mentioned since the Lorillard buy out).
That is much like I say about DIY B&M's could use the low overhead liquid to bring people in to sell higher markup products. The saying "spend money to make money" isn't all about having to have money sit in inventory, sometimes you actually take a loss to bring money in, which seems to be lost on the younger set.

 

[ambientech]

Once again you say nothing.
"The markup"???
Like there's one set markup liquid makers charge? (Obviously not when you have someone the size of Johnson Creek charging around $20/30ml and smaller companies charging less.)

I'm obviously not talking about liquid makers. It wouldn't do them any good to use liquid to get people into their store to buy more liquid. I'm talking about B&M's who DIY and charge like they were a liquid maker or more.

The only backs of checks I sign are those handed over to me by my customers and it's been that way for over 20 years. Perhaps it's you who should stick to signing the backs of your paycheck. They way you constantly say nothing, hiding behind profit margins and "the markup" says you don't know what you think you do.

I am not here to educate you or anyone the running of a business. The small B&M has huge overhead and if you truly did own your own business you would know this. You are just an internet warrior crying that the B&M are making a decent living. Only those who haven't figured out how to make a decent living would cry about others who have. Put your big boy pants on. Risk your life savings starting a company that according to statistics is most likely going to fail within 2 years leaving you flat broke.

 

[Zanaspus]

Being Abd to a PhD in economics perhaps I can clarify a bit. I am well aware of retail overhead, but that really has little to do with the final price. If there were not a significant demand, the price would be driven to a low enough point where retailers could not sell juice and make a profit.

The biggest misconception is that price somehow reflects manufacturing/retailing costs. If this were true, a Honda Accord might sell for $5,000, pharmaceutical prescriptions for $4 a piece. Price comes down to what the market will bear when there is product differentiation across manufacturers. Don't like the price of Mothers' Milk? Don't buy it. However the fact that this juice exists at its current price indicates to us that the proprietary formula that gives this or any juice its particular flavor is coveted enough by enough people that the pricing makes sense from the manufacturers standpoint.

You can DiY for a low cost, but if there's a flavor out there that does it for you that you find unable to reproduce, and that flavor makes you willing to shell out $25 for 30ml, then there's no argument really.

Price is WHAT THE MARKET WILL BEAR, period. There is no "fairness" about it as long as people can vote with their feet.

 

[twgbonehead]

If you are talking about simple flavors, you can get them in very inexpensive juices, with pretty good taste.

You can buy a peach, shrimp, scallops, or beef tenderloin very cheaply from your local supermarket.

Yet there are people more than willing to pay a ton of money to taste what Gordon Ramsey can do with that peach, shrimp, scallop, and tenderloin, in a tiny portion. Why would anybody pay $200 for a meal that only uses $20 worth of ingredients?

The same is true with SOME boutique e-liquids. They display a degree of artistry that adds a tremendous amount of value to the ingredients they use. But just as there are expensive restaurants that serve bad or mediocre food, there are expensive e-liquids that just don't cut it.

Why would you expect THIS particular market to be any different from the restaurant business?

 

[Chelonian]

twgbonehead:

they expect it because that's the way they want it, and by god, if it's not the way they want it, there's gonna be a problem.

 

[klynnn]

I may be old and crazy but since when has any price gone down. If they don't get you coming they get you going. Anything you buy today will be more expensive tomorrow, it's built in. The only way to get ahead is DIY.

 

[DeliciousClouds]

I may be old and crazy but since when has any price gone down. If they don't get you coming they get you going. Anything you buy today will be more expensive tomorrow, it's built in. The only way to get ahead is DIY.

I don't know how this holds up for e-juice, but one prominent example of lowered prices is the computer market. You can buy a bigger capacity hard drive for less money today than you would have paid for a lower capacity drive mere years ago. The same holds true for pretty much any electronic device (more bang, for less buck).

 

[Mazinny]

I may be old and crazy but since when has any price gone down. If they don't get you coming they get you going. Anything you buy today will be more expensive tomorrow, it's built in. The only way to get ahead is DIY.

long distance phone calls, computers, HDTV, electric cars, solar panels, etc... Basically any goods or services that is new in the market. Once the market is created and larger companies jump in and produce in mass.

 

[Mazinny]

I am not here to educate you or anyone the running of a business. The small B&M has huge overhead and if you truly did own your own business you would know this. You are just an internet warrior crying that the B&M are making a decent living. Only those who haven't figured out how to make a decent living would cry about others who have. Put your big boy pants on. Risk your life savings starting a company that according to statistics is most likely going to fail within 2 years leaving you flat broke.

The ones that do make a decent living are doing so, off uneducated consumers. I bought my first setup of 650 Mah batteries and CE4 clearos for $ 65. Within a month, i found out that i could have bought the same setup from China for $ 20. Ditto with juice. I bought crappy juice for $9 for 10 ml. But once, only once ! Right now, there are enough new uneducated buyers starting to vape every month, that these types of stores could stay in business. I doubt this will be the case a few years from now, not with the prices they charge. They make their living off newbies for the most part. I have an acquaintance that has opened a store, who basically admits to this. Not a lot of repeat business.

 

[Myk]

I am not here to educate you or anyone the running of a business. The small B&M has huge overhead and if you truly did own your own business you would know this. You are just an internet warrior crying that the B&M are making a decent living. Only those who haven't figured out how to make a decent living would cry about others who have. Put your big boy pants on. Risk your life savings starting a company that according to statistics is most likely going to fail within 2 years leaving you flat broke.

Since you're the one who started the attacks my guess is you are the keyboard warrior and nothing you've said is true.
If you actually were a business or thinking of starting a business, calling your customers names isn't a good way to go about it. My advice to you in the future, if any of that was true, is to sit back let your customers complain listen and maybe learn something about what customers want.
You don't learn with your mouth flapping back at them.

Or go ahead and sink your life savings into a store and then try to mark 100ml a week up high enough to pay your rent with your first few loyal customers. While you're at it buy single items from FastTech and mark them up 300%, I'm sure your customers aren't smart enough to figure it out. Be my guest, I love seeing internet blowhards fail.

 

[klynnn]

The only problem is that those cheaper prices come from equip built in China. It;s great but it is also destroying this country because no one makes anything here anymore and why would they. They have unions and untold regulations/taxes to deal with as well as a fraudulent market that only goes up. What goes up will come down big time.

 

[DeliciousClouds]

The only problem is that those cheaper prices come from equip built in China. It;s great but it is also destroying this country because no one makes anything here anymore and why would they. They have unions and untold regulations/taxes to deal with as well as a fraudulent market that only goes up. What goes up will come down big time.

With industry accounting for only 19% of the country's GDP, I don't think China is destroying much. And that industrial economy includes sectors that China can't touch. For example, you guys have the largest natural gas reserves in the world, China clocks in at spot 9 for that. Not to mention The USA has a huge service economy (80% GDP). And all those delicious China products get shipped right back to The States to fuel your retail sector.

I haven't studied economics so I may as well be talking out of my ... here. But looking at the basic figures anyone can look up.. What's the major problem?

 

[Chelonian]

The only problem is that the service sector pays poverty level wages, which puts 80% in the bottom tier ov=f earning.

Good manufacturing jobs that require on the job skill pay at least 50% more.

So, yes, the middle class was much better off in the States when we had a strong industrial base.

 

[Myk]

The only problem is that those cheaper prices come from equip built in China. It;s great but it is also destroying this country because no one makes anything here anymore and why would they. They have unions and untold regulations/taxes to deal with as well as a fraudulent market that only goes up. What goes up will come down big time.

The more expensive prices are still built in China. The only difference is some B&M owner who relies on people not knowing prices.
I was happy to give my local 150% over FT's price on an SVD and a VTR. But when he has some cheap RDA/RBA atty clone marked up 300% or more I'm going somewhere else. Yes he needs to pay overhead, and I also have my own bills to think of.

If they're marking up 5¢/ml to 70¢/ml and something FT sells for $15 to $60 imagine what they'd do with US manufacturing labor costs.

 

[ClintS]

As for DIY, I think the problem we will encounter is the obtaining nicotine...

The FDA has little control over nicotine today and that being after years of studies, research, proposed laws and regulations and the those that have passed. It appears to me that the only way for them to regulate e-cigs and commercially made products with nicotine is classify them as tobacco products.

If they had a means to regulate the usage of nicotine why do they not impose it? What leads you to believe that specifically nicotine will be regulated in the future?

 

[ClintS]

I ask the question and I give the answer that IMO is right.

The proposed e-cig regulations, in the USA/Europe/Canada/..etc concern mostly E-liquid. Who's to gain from this intrusion in our personnal freedom ?

It is a given that DIY e-liquid is very easy to do for even the less skilful of vapers, (if you can mix a drink, bake a cake or do simple cooking you can DIY e-liquids).

Regulations will probably prevent DIY for most of us. Who will profit most from regulations ?

The e-liquid merchants who will continue to make huge profits on cheap and easy to mix e-liquids. So, I am very perplexed when I see and hear that the e-liquid merchants are against regulations. Ultimatly by preventing DIY, THEY are the ones who will profit the most from those dreaded regulations.

I am not surprised that those two inept reps from Blue and Njoy did not offer any resistance to that e-cig hearing . They want it, badly !

Why would regulations prevent DIYrs? The FDA is concerned with commercial sales.

Blu and Njoy both want a sensible amount of regulation and they have that posted to such on their web sites. They have already invested a lot of money in safe juice production that they think will meet any future FDA requirements.

 

[Tangaroav]

Why would regulations prevent DIYrs? The FDA is concerned with commercial sales.

Blu and Njoy both want a sensible amount of regulation and they have that posted to such on their web sites. They have already invested a lot of money in safe juice production that they think will meet any future FDA requirements.

I worry because of the direction the FDA has taken: vaping is smoking .

I worry because of the vested interest's pressure, (tobacco, pharmaceutical, big business, ...etc), on the politicians to treat vaping as smoking and regulate it as such.

I worry because of the lies and half truths the media has propagated. The resulting attitude of the general public is slowly but surely being molded to accept, and in many case actively support to treat vaping as smoking.

I worry because I see the way nicotine is being regulated and the strick enforcement of those regulations, in Europe, Canada and Asia. In many of those countries it is impossible to acquire, (legally), nicotine and in some vaping is illegal.

I worry because all of the above refer to vaping as 'smoking' . ( as so many here on ECF do ).

I worry because of the way the tobacco laws are being forcibly enforced by the tobacco firearms agency is the model that is the most likely to be applied to vaping.

Blue, Njoy and the rest of the big players in the vaping business, (and many of the small business) have everything to gain by eridicating all the e-liquid DIY venues ? The financial gains by our governements in taxing vaping the same as smoking is from their point of view the major factor in treating vaping as smoking ?

As far as vaping is concerned E-liquids are what can be regulated without too much efforts by the existing govt. agencies and it looks to me that it will soon be. Maybe progressivly, maybe completly, but it is coming.

 

[twgbonehead]

The FDA has little control over nicotine today and that being after years of studies, research, proposed laws and regulations and the those that have passed. It appears to me that the only way for them to regulate e-cigs and commercially made products with nicotine is classify them as tobacco products.

If they had a means to regulate the usage of nicotine why do they not impose it? What leads you to believe that specifically nicotine will be regulated in the future?

ClintS,

Are you aware of the "deeming regulations" the FDA has proposed? They do classify e-cigarettes as tobacco products (including components of an e-cigarette which contain no nicotine whatsoever). They do intend to regulate e-liquids, and very specifically, the nicotine base that is needed for DIY. What's more, the regulatory procedure is extremely expensive; by the FDA's own estimate it will cost approx $334,000 per product just to file an application. And this regulation is scheduled to take effect about 2 years from now.

Of course Blu and NJoy want this regulation! They're the only ones who could afford it (particularly given the extremely limited selection of products they make, and their market share). It would eliminate any competition.