Why Is It...?

[Crunktanium]

Found the video which is pretty long but worth watching for anyone who really wants to learn about reactions.

Chemical Curiosities: Surprising Science and Dramatic Demonstrations - YouTube

 

[Levitas]

We would definitely appreciate having that link/video! It floors me how often when people discuss "steeping" that they insist that there's no possibility of 'chemical reactions' having anything to do with the changing of the flavors over time.

I'm assuming you meant me, though carefully avoiding any direct confrontation, lol.

I don't disagree that a chemical reaction is happening. I do doubt, however, that through the act of steeping alone, the flavoring will completely change into another.

Also, though the video below is very interesting, (just finished watching the whole thing), it still lacks any definitive proof as to what, exactly, is happening when we mix the ingredients we use in our e-fluids. It mentions many forms of reactions, none of which that can be used in a comparison with ingredients we utilize.

Now, I don't claim to be a very good cook, nor am I a chemist, but I can very vividly notice if there is a true change in my blends with the act of allowing the blend to sit over time, and I'm not seeing it (tasting it, rather). That's not to say that there isn't any difference between a fresh blend, and an aged one (depending on the recipe/flavorings used), but what I would describe the change as being is that of what I mentioned earlier in this thread. A sort of dissipating, or mellowing of the flavoring, but definitely not a true change.

Perhaps the way I describe it is wrong. Perhaps what I speak of is indeed chemical change/reaction, I cannot say for sure. Even you mentioned that adding "chocolate" plus "caramel" doesn't necessarily mean it will equate to "chocolate caramel". So, doesn't it stand to reason that through the act of aging, the flavorings aren't actually changing, rather, they're being manipulated to make your taste cells believe that there was a change, when in fact it did not?

Chemical Curiosities: Surprising Science and Dramatic Demonstrations - YouTube

 

[Rin13]

It's just the way the flavors break down. Just like food. You have some things that taste good immediately while others, like certain cheeses need time to develop. I have found that fruits "process" quickest for me, while tobaccos take the longest. (some say desert flavors take even longer than tobaccos but I don't really delve into those flavors so I cannot personally attest either way) I always do a hot bath after mixing (usually several times) which helps the flavors blend IMO. It's also almost necessary because I use 50/50 VG/PG and VG is pretty thick.

 

[j3illy]

The process (or art) of making e-juice is still basically uncharted territory. I think the concept of e-cigs is pretty ingenious and an awesome method of nicotine delivery, but when you think of what we're doing, it's evident that there's no exact science to it. We're taking our base ingredients, mixing concentrated food flavorings in, and then vaporizing the cocktail. This isn't how these flavorings were ever envisioned to be consumed, but it sure does seem to work lol. But these are all made from various ingredients by various brands, and when these combos start getting created, there's further reactions that are taking place afterwards. I'd buy my juice from the B&M and it'd be clear, and after a few days some (but not all) would start to progressively darken and change color. This literally illustrates the concept of steeping for the eyes to see, but there's definitely a lot of experimenting one would need to do to start to scratch the surface w/ all the possibilities out there! It's like a whole other world compared to cigs and I think it's great.

 

[savagemann]

I'm just gonna throw this out there.
I always sample right after mixing, shaking, hot bath, then more shaking.
I start with a clean coil and fresh cotton wick.
Soak the wick, then vape it away.
It's usually about 8 drops and I get a solid 6-10 puffs.
I can usually get a sense of how I think it will end up after my first sample.
This is the part I'm "just throwing out there"
Then, I redrip a good 6-8 drops and put the atty away until the next day.
My thoughts are the small amount of liquid in the atty, basically exposed to a large, fairly open air source gets a faster steep, than say a 30ml bottle left with the cap off.
When I vape it the next day, usually 12-16 hours later, the juice left in the atty tastes substantially different than say the juice that was left with an open top bottle.
It tastes closer to how it would after a few day steep.
Could be oxidization, or an accelerated evaporation of alcohols, maybe a bit of both.
I may be crazy, but I can tell a real difference.

Some juices don't change much over time, and some do.
But I can usually tell if I am gonna like something within minutes of mixing.

I have mixed juice that substantially changed over time.
I mixed a honeysuckle/apple mix.
I heated, shook and vaped it.
I almost threw up. It seriously tasted like vomit.
I couldn't taste either of the 2 flavors, just vomit. It was terrible.
Tried again a week later, and it was still disgusting.
Tried 2 weeks later and less disgusting, but tastes like somebody threw up on a honeysuckle bush.
Tossed it in a bin and forgot about it for another 4-5 weeks.
When I stumbled across it, I figured I'd give it 1 last shot, then flush it.
It was absolutely amazing!
Became my adv for quite some time.

It just depends on the flavor and combination of flavors used.

Now, I throw nothing away until it has sat for several months.

Last night I mixed up 10 flavors.
Cleaned out and rewicked a bunch of attys.
Out of the 10, 2 blew me away and made it into tanks, then 30ml batches mixed as backups.

The rest, a couple seem harsh but I can tell they will mellow out a bit.
They were better overnight sitting in the atty.

It took me 3 hours to write out 10 recipes, mix the juice, and while it was bathing, I cleaned out and rewicked 8 attys. Not bad.



I am going to do a test.
Mix up 30ml of a juice I make all the time.
I know it needs 1 week steep time.
I am going to pour the whole bottle into a small pyrex dish and let it sit uncovered for 24 hours, with some 400 mesh covering the bowl.
Im thinking all that surface area of the juice being exposed to air will steep it faster.
I will report back with the results.

 

[savagemann]

I didn't really answer the original question.....but I think it just depends on the flavor.
The brand, type etc.
For example....Vanilla.
I have some that are way too strong right after mixing, but mellow after a week or so.
I have one that is pretty weak at first, then gets fuller flavored after sitting.
Strawberry, chocolate and lots of tobaccos I mix get weaker over time.

Whats Important is that you mix your individual flavors alone and try them every day to see what they do over time.
Then when you start making recipes and test it, you have an idea of what to expect after it sits a bit.

 

[Crunktanium]

I cleaned out and rewicked 8 attys. Not bad.

Most vendors who make a living from selling juice wont even buy a dozen Protanks for tasting because of the cost.

You take the cake and you get to eat it!

 

[holy_handgrenade]

Well, here's my 2 cents, for what it's worth

Getting to know the process of ejuice these past few months it's very very much akin to brewing; something I've been doing for quite some years. A young, or fresh, wine will taste almost "nasty" but without doing anything to it, a month later its drinkable (not great, yet, but tolerable). Same goes for beers, meads, and even distilled spirits.

Essentially, you're creating a solution - a chemical mix of stuff in a balance. Your fresh mix may have been mixed right, but I can almost guarantee you that it's not evenly distributed. So your first test may be strong, because where you sucked up the juice into your syringe or dropper, or what fell into the dropper cap, may have been a more potent mix of flavor than was intended by the recipe.

While I will agree that some chemical reaction is taking place, unless there are reactive chemicals, it's unlikely this is playing enough of a part to effect the flavors this dramatically.

More likely, it's just a matter of time to let osmosis take place. Heat can speed things up, but it doesn't eliminate the waiting period. A good vinter (winemaker) can taste a young wine just out of the fermentor and know exactly what fixing he/she needs to do. While a new vinter would need to wait for the agining to nearly complete before he/she knows what's missing and how to adjust the flavors. This is a skill that only comes with experience; it's next to impossible to explain, document, or convey to another person because taste, afterall, is subjective.

From what is described, there's a kind of pendulum that swings as the mix is entered into solution; it will steadily work itself towards an equilibrium; which is where the pendulum stops. If you tested it daily, you may find that each test would be slightly different; muted, perfect, bold, etc. However, with the small quantities that we're dealing with; a test with an exceptionally bold mix has just removed a lot of the flavor with it, almost forcing a weaker final flavor once that pendulum stops swinging. Both PG and VG are very viscous fluids and I would imagine would take a bit of time to balance out and mellow flavor profiles than say, PGA/Water solutions such as beer or wine.

 

[Ld3441]

I'm just gonna throw this out there.
I always sample right after mixing, shaking, hot bath, then more shaking.
I start with a clean coil and fresh cotton wick.
Soak the wick, then vape it away.
It's usually about 8 drops and I get a solid 6-10 puffs.
I can usually get a sense of how I think it will end up after my first sample.
This is the part I'm "just throwing out there"
Then, I redrip a good 6-8 drops and put the atty away until the next day.
My thoughts are the small amount of liquid in the atty, basically exposed to a large, fairly open air source gets a faster steep, than say a 30ml bottle left with the cap off.
When I vape it the next day, usually 12-16 hours later, the juice left in the atty tastes substantially different than say the juice that was left with an open top bottle.
It tastes closer to how it would after a few day steep.
Could be oxidization, or an accelerated evaporation of alcohols, maybe a bit of both.
I may be crazy, but I can tell a real difference.

Some juices don't change much over time, and some do.
But I can usually tell if I am gonna like something within minutes of mixing.

I have mixed juice that substantially changed over time.
I mixed a honeysuckle/apple mix.
I heated, shook and vaped it.
I almost threw up. It seriously tasted like vomit.
I couldn't taste either of the 2 flavors, just vomit. It was terrible.
Tried again a week later, and it was still disgusting.
Tried 2 weeks later and less disgusting, but tastes like somebody threw up on a honeysuckle bush.
Tossed it in a bin and forgot about it for another 4-5 weeks.
When I stumbled across it, I figured I'd give it 1 last shot, then flush it.
It was absolutely amazing!
Became my adv for quite some time.

It just depends on the flavor and combination of flavors used.

Now, I throw nothing away until it has sat for several months.

Last night I mixed up 10 flavors.
Cleaned out and rewicked a bunch of attys.
Out of the 10, 2 blew me away and made it into tanks, then 30ml batches mixed as backups.

The rest, a couple seem harsh but I can tell they will mellow out a bit.
They were better overnight sitting in the atty.

It took me 3 hours to write out 10 recipes, mix the juice, and while it was bathing, I cleaned out and rewicked 8 attys. Not bad.



I am going to do a test.
Mix up 30ml of a juice I make all the time.
I know it needs 1 week steep time.
I am going to pour the whole bottle into a small pyrex dish and let it sit uncovered for 24 hours, with some 400 mesh covering the bowl.
Im thinking all that surface area of the juice being exposed to air will steep it faster.
I will report back with the results.

I will be very interested in your results. Please do let us know how it turns out.

 

[Hoosier]

I'd put my money on the observation of getting stronger tasting of one and getting weaker tasting of the second is the same thing, getting stronger.

 

[we2rcool]

I'm assuming you meant me, though carefully avoiding any direct confrontation, lol.

When I said "they", I meant anyone - not specifically you. I never "carefully avoid any direct confrontation" - I calls 'em as I see's 'em (as politely & respectfully as I can), and let the chips fall where they may.

I don't disagree that a chemical reaction is happening. I do doubt, however, that through the act of steeping alone, the flavoring will completely change into another.

As I've mentioned in previous threads, we have experienced at least one complete flavor change. In Mom & Pop's Butterfly Bait flavoring mixture, there is initially strong peach and no maple. But after a month, there is no peach, and very strong maple (somewhere there's a thread about it where others have experienced the same). Perhaps if you'd experienced it, you'd believe it...or perhaps you wouldn't :::shrugs shoulders doesn't know::: There are many variances that some would call 'complete changes'. In TFA Caramel Cappuccino (for example), a certain flavor element (the burned catter litter box taste) completely disappears after a few weeks. And as many DIYers have posted in many threads, there are many examples of flavors changing so substantially that it cannot be attributed to simple mellowing, dissipating, or 'spreading out'.

Also, though the video below is very interesting, (just finished watching the whole thing), it still lacks any definitive proof as to what, exactly, is happening when we mix the ingredients we use in our e-fluids. It mentions many forms of reactions, none of which that can be used in a comparison with ingredients we utilize.

Now, I don't claim to be a very good cook, nor am I a chemist, but I can very vividly notice if there is a true change in my blends with the act of allowing the blend to sit over time, and I'm not seeing it (tasting it, rather). That's not to say that there isn't any difference between a fresh blend, and an aged one (depending on the recipe/flavorings used), but what I would describe the change as being is that of what I mentioned earlier in this thread. A sort of dissipating, or mellowing of the flavoring, but definitely not a true change.

Interesting.

When we watched the video, we were amazed at how the various examples directly showed how the various chemical interactions can occur & manifest throughout the "steeping" process. Many of those examples can be used as not only a "comparison to the ingredients we utilize", but are also very good fundamental explanations of how the changes we experience during the steeping process actually happen. The iodine 'color change' explained how chemical reactions can cause a juice to 'taste one way' immediately after mixing (or at a certain intensity), then lose flavor, then come back. We were very excited to realize the 'chemical reaction reasons' that can happen - especially since we've experienced it and gotten feedback on it.

It seems like the type of "definitive proof" you're requiring would necessitate a complete chemical analysis of the various chemicals in each flavor, and laboratory evidence of each & every known chemical interaction. If that's the case, that's fine. But we're different. We're mixing chemicals - we know various chemical interactions & reactions have the potential to cause cause varying levels of color, taste, & smell change...and we see, smell & taste the changes as they happen. Some react; some don't; some react over time; some react with exposure to air; some to heat; some to shaking; some react after initial reaction (where they didn't have anything to react to initially) - and those reactions may (or may not) cause further reactions. That's all the proof & evidence we need.

Perhaps the way I describe it is wrong. Perhaps what I speak of is indeed chemical change/reaction, I cannot say for sure. Even you mentioned that adding "chocolate" plus "caramel" doesn't necessarily mean it will equate to "chocolate caramel". So, doesn't it stand to reason that through the act of aging, the flavorings aren't actually changing, rather, they're being manipulated to make your taste cells believe that there was a change, when in fact it did not?

Nope, that does not 'stand to reason' to me at all. That's like saying that the chemical reactions and changes occuring in the video weren't really happening, they were manipulating our eyes to see a color change when there was, in fact, not a color change at all.

Two people can stand side by side looking at the same sky. Each may describe what they see differently (or each may even see something different). But what is happening is really what is happening in the sky...no matter how their level of knowledge, understanding & beliefs cause them to interpret or perceive what they see - or describe what they see.

When we're standing there mixing chemicals, what we see are changes caused by chemical reactions & interactions. But that doesn't mean we think you should "have" to see or envision what we see.

***

For those interested in how heat affects steeping (via the interaction of chemicals in flavors/juices) - we found this after watching the video:

From wikianswers - chemistry/biology:

How does heat speed up chemical reactions?
Heating a substance makes its particles move more rapidly and collide more frequently. When they collide, bonds between the particles are broken and new ones are more easily formed with the particles of other substances. Heating substances, therefore, usually causes the rate of a chemical reaction to increase.

 

[we2rcool]

Found the video which is pretty long but worth watching for anyone who really wants to learn about reactions.

Chemical Curiosities: Surprising Science and Dramatic Demonstrations - YouTube

Thank you so very much! Not only was that video super interesting (and tons of fun) - but it also answered so many questions about how the chemicals in juices can react, interact, and then continue to have varying reactions from the initial interactions.

WAY COOL! ('sure do wish we'd all had science/chemistry teachers like that when going through school!).

 

[Ld3441]

Thanks to all who provided info on this thread. Very interesting indeed!

I spent last night reading the vinegar thread among others. I am amazed at the knowledge that so many share here. I'm sorry that thread died out when it did, I'd love to know what happened next. I feel like I am in school once again, taking notes on various things to help me along the way. This is a wonderful journey and I am thankful to those that have been down this road before and taken the time to document their journey. Thanks!

 

[Levitas]

As I've mentioned in previous threads, we have experienced at least one complete flavor change. In Mom & Pop's Butterfly Bait flavoring mixture, there is initially strong peach and no maple. But after a month, there is no peach, and very strong maple (somewhere there's a thread about it where others have experienced the same). Perhaps if you'd experienced it, you'd believe it...or perhaps you wouldn't :::shrugs shoulders doesn't know::: There are many variances that some would call 'complete changes'. In TFA Caramel Cappuccino (for example), a certain flavor element (the burned catter litter box taste) completely disappears after a few weeks. And as many DIYers have posted in many threads, there are many examples of flavors changing so substantially that it cannot be attributed to simple mellowing, dissipating, or 'spreading out'.

Actually, I disagree, mainly with the bold part.

Both of those examples you've given could be due to the mellowing, or "spreading out" hypothesis. I've mentioned it before; allow me to elaborate. Your first example, you mention that the first thing you taste is a strong peach, and no maple. However, after a month, you start tasting the maple. How does that not fit the bill completely in what I'm saying? The peach is the dominate flavoring, thus why you cannot taste the maple, however, after a month of allowing some of the peach to dissipate and/or spread out, the maple starts becoming more apparent.

Your second example, a flavoring that has a terrible additional flavor, but mellows out after sitting... again, how is this not another perfect example? You imagine a complete flavor change, because that's what your mind tells you is happening. The flavoring didn't change from litter box to cappuccino, it was cappuccino all along. The aforementioned flavoring didn't change from peace to maple, it had both flavorings since the mix.

Interesting.

When we watched the video, we were amazed at how the various examples directly showed how the various chemical interactions can occur & manifest throughout the "steeping" process. Many of those examples can be used as not only a "comparison to the ingredients we utilize", but are also very good fundamental explanations of how the changes we experience during the steeping process actually happen. The iodine 'color change' explained how chemical reactions can cause a juice to 'taste one way' immediately after mixing (or at a certain intensity), then lose flavor, then come back. We were very excited to realize the 'chemical reaction reasons' that can happen - especially since we've experienced it and gotten feedback on it.

I agree, it is very neat to see chemical reactions like that happen. However, that still doesn't mean that the chemicals we use on our mixes will be subjected to the same changes. I'm not saying that through the act of steeping that no change happens, in fact, I'm not saying anything as definitive. I'm only expressing my opinion on what's happening, as you are. I can't look at that video, and just believe that, because I'm mixing a flavoring into a base of nicotine, propylene glycol, and glycerine, it will react in the same way as that "iodine color change" example.

It seems like the type of "definitive proof" you're requiring would necessitate a complete chemical analysis of the various chemicals in each flavor, and laboratory evidence of each & every known chemical interaction. If that's the case, that's fine. But we're different. We're mixing chemicals - we know various chemical interactions & reactions have the potential to cause cause varying levels of color, taste, & smell change...and we see, smell & taste the changes as they happen. Some react; some don't; some react over time; some react with exposure to air; some to heat; some to shaking; some react after initial reaction (where they didn't have anything to react to initially) - and those reactions may (or may not) cause further reactions. That's all the proof & evidence we need.

That's fine, but you're right, I do need more than empirical "proof". Again, I don't disagree that reactions are happening (I believe you're misconstruing my point), however, I do disagree that flavorings, through the act of steeping alone, are changing into something completely different. Simple as that.

Nope, that does not 'stand to reason' to me at all. That's like saying that the chemical reactions and changes occuring in the video weren't really happening, they were manipulating our eyes to see a color change when there was, in fact, not a color change at all.

Two people can stand side by side looking at the same sky. Each may describe what they see differently (or each may even see something different). But what is happening is really what is happening in the sky...no matter how their level of knowledge, understanding & beliefs cause them to interpret or perceive what they see - or describe what they see.

When we're standing there mixing chemicals, what we see are changes caused by chemical reactions & interactions. But that doesn't mean we think you should "have" to see or envision what we see.

Actually, it has little to do with the video, and more to do with a trick of the mind. The video was demonstrating chemical reactions with color change by altering pH levels in the liquids while adding various methods of reading pH (litmus, for example). What I was talking about was that your mind is very powerful, and through your senses, it can fool you into believing almost anything, given the situation.

You make a blend with two ingredients, upon first taste, you only taste one ingredient. After allowing the blend to sit, you notice the other ingredient you mixed in coming out more. Do you truly believe that the original dominant ingredient is changing into the latent flavoring?

Another example: You mix three ingredients, and it yields a certain taste. After a while, that taste alters to that of a taste that wasn't expected, because you didn't add any flavoring like the one you're currently tasting in the blend. Well, that's why I used your previous example of, "Just because you add Carmel into Cappuccino doesn't mean it will yield Caramel Cappuccino." Just because you mixed three ingredients, doesn't mean it will taste like you originally intended.

I don't attribute that phenomenon to one flavoring changing into another. I believe that's just because you mixed the ingredients in such a way that it's causing your mind to believe it's something that it's not. And again, my previous hypothesis can be applied here as well.



Look, I get where you're coming from. I'd be more apt to be on page with you if I had anything aside of my own workings/experiences to base that change off of. I know that you think the video completely correlates with what we're doing here, and that's fine. But I'm just not seeing it. Again, I do see how those types of chemical changes can happen, I just don't see how it does with what we're using here.

So, yes, I guess I do need something of a complete analytical work-up. If a chemist could write a paper, or make a video like that guy did, only explaining it with what we do here, then I'm on board, all the way.

 

[Crunktanium]

Makes me wish I gave a damn about chemistry back in high school.

 

[we2rcool]

Actually, I disagree, mainly with the bold part.

I don't attribute that phenomenon to one flavoring changing into another. I believe that's just because you mixed the ingredients in such a way that it's causing your mind to believe it's something that it's not. And again, my previous hypothesis can be applied here as well.
.

So then, you believe that the way we "mix ingredients causes our mind to believe it's something that it's not". Okee-dokee, well, 'sounds like you've got your mind all made up on this one. Vape On!