Why is vaping industry flying below average smoker's radar?

[Robino1]

Was wondering if vaping is regulated at all in the UK djsvapour. When your refer to junk e-cigs do you mean disposables? Here in Michigan they cost about four bucks, compared to a pack of cigarettes which are five to six dollars. For the money I would think they are fairly priced but hardly impressive. Thing is, the tobacco companies don't market their e-cigs as a smoking cessation product. Hardly in their best interest to do so. But the fact that Altria paid $110M to buy Green Smoke early in 2014 tells you they want their foot in the door...

They can't by law say that they are a smoking cessation device. No vendor can say that. If they did and were allowed to do so, then ecigs would fall under a drug instead and be regulated as a drug. Can you imagine going to a pharmacy to get your refills?

 

[tckenno]

The real issues are pretty minor ones. Allergies are a common thing. Batteries blowing or overheating are nothing new. I think hover boards are the latest item in the news on that issue. Public education would resolve the misinformation. Becoming mainstream will invite studies and more rigorous testing of the products. Undoubtedly (unfortunately) will drive up prices of the products as well. Might be the price that has to be paid to become more widely accepted.

 

[tckenno]

They can't by law say that they are a smoking cessation device. No vendor can say that. If they did and were allowed to do so, then ecigs would fall under a drug instead and be regulated as a drug. Can you imagine going to a pharmacy to get your refills?

Didn't know that. Nicotine gum and patches are sold in grocery stores and who buys those if not smokers looking to quit. Makes no sense.

 

[suprtrkr]

Didn't know that. Nicotine gum and patches are sold in grocery stores and who buys those if not smokers looking to quit. Makes no sense.

Hhhmmm... yes and no. They are sold OTC, yes, but they also already did all the FDA bumf, and would cost a third of their price if they hadn't. This is similar to aspirin: it's a drug, yes, and sold without prescription, yes. But it is also FDA regulated for purity, etc. That's what drives the price up.

 

[Robino1]

Didn't know that. Nicotine gum and patches are sold in grocery stores and who buys those if not smokers looking to quit. Makes no sense.

most things involving the FDA makes no sense.

Back in 2008-9 the FDA caught wind of ecigs and confiscated shipments of stuff coming into the country. They did this by stating it was a drug. A major player (Njoy I do believe) took it to court and Judge (Leon?) ruled that it was not a drug and that the FDA would have to deem them a tobacco product in order to have ecigs fall under the FDA's regulatory thumb. At that time, it was made aware that anyone selling ecigs could not make the claim of being a smoking cessation device or it would fall under a drug category.

As a consumer, we can shout it from the rooftops that it can help you quit smoking. We aren't bound by the ruling as we aren't selling the stuff.

And so here we sit.....waiting for the deeming to come down. After being smacked down by the courts once, they are taking their time to make sure they get all their ducks in a row this time.

We don't know what is in the deeming but we do know it is in the hands of the OMB being reviewed. That all happens behind closed doors. We don't get to see what we are fighting until after it is approved

In the meantime, states are getting very scared of losing the millions in tax $$, not to mention the MSA millions, they are placing their own interpretation on ecigs.

Amazing how we finally have something that lets us enjoy nicotine in a way that is magnitudes safer and they want to take it away.....all for the love greed of money

 

[djsvapour]

Was wondering if vaping is regulated at all in the UK djsvapour. When your refer to junk e-cigs do you mean disposables? Here in Michigan they cost about four bucks, compared to a pack of cigarettes which are five to six dollars. For the money I would think they are fairly priced but hardly impressive. Thing is, the tobacco companies don't market their e-cigs as a smoking cessation product. Hardly in their best interest to do so. But the fact that Altria paid $110M to buy Green Smoke early in 2014 tells you they want their foot in the door...

1. No, not yet. Wait until about May 2016. Then things are getting tough.
2. In my words junk is not just disposable. Junk is cheap and only mildly effective e-cigs for maximum profit. Apollo, Greensmoke and V2 do junk too. (not everything, of course)
3. From May 2016 in the UK, the tobacco companies will be selling their devices as smoking cessation products. That's how it's going to work.
That's why they are nearly all owned by tobacco. Big tobacco (Blu) are encouraging the government to ban refillable devices.
4. Greensmoke (and the rest) are the perfect example of what the tobacco companies want to sell. More profit than cigarettes. In the UK from Summer 2016, my taxes will pay tobacco companies to 'give' e-cigarettes to people through our national health service.

Basically, this is how it is panning out.

1. Blu, Vivid, Vype spend millions on advertising. They encourage shops (all shops, doesn't matter; food, grocery, fuel (gas), household) to sell their products and throw the rest off the shelves. Eventually, Blu, Vivid and Vype is all you can buy without shopping online.
2. May 2016, the government bans refillable tanks and limits liquids to 10ml/20mg.
3. The shops selling the few brands remaining are left with sealed systems that cost $5,000 a year to vape.

Who wins? Tobacco.

There will be two products left. 'Prescription/medicinal' e-cigs made by tobacco companies.
'Sealed system/non-medicinal' products made by tobacco companies.

There will be almost no difference. One I have to buy with my own money. The other, the NHS buys with my money for people who want to quit smoking but weren't prepared to buy an e-cigarette with their own money.

That's why I am cross about it. A very sad state of affairs.

 

[FishingBuffalo]

Join CASAA and also contact your congressman to support HR2058!

 

[djsvapour]

Can you imagine going to a pharmacy to get your refills?

A funny as that sounds, people are already buying Vype refills from... yep, you guessed it.. a pharmacy.
..and to make matters even more crackpot... from next year, you'll be able to choose.
1. Vype refills paid for by yourself or
2. Vype refills paid for from other people's taxes.

The one you buy yourself will be like paying $20 for a 10ml bottle.
The other one will be like paying $40 of NHS money for a 10ml bottle.

 

[Robino1]

A funny as that sounds, people are already buying Vype refills from... yep, you guessed it.. a pharmacy.
..and to make matters even more crackpot... from next year, you'll be able to choose.
1. Vype refills paid for by yourself or
2. Vype refills paid for from other people's taxes.

The one you buy yourself will be like paying $20 for a 10ml bottle.
The other one will be like paying $40 of NHS money for a 10ml bottle.

SMDH I'm so sorry for you all over there. .
This is the reason we didn't want them to be regulated like a drug.

(SMDH= shaking my damned head)

 

[djsvapour]

SMDH I'm so sorry for you all over there. .
This is the reason we didn't want them to be regulated like a drug.

(SMDH= shaking my damned head)

We are still hanging in there. The fact that we managed to keep 'consumer' e-cigs along with 'regulated/medicinal' e-cigs was in itself a victory.
The EU parliament threw out the motion for 100% regulated/medicine-only e-cigs.

... then they came up with some draconian plans in retaliation.

 

[Robino1]

We are still hanging in there. The fact that we managed to keep 'consumer' e-cigs along with 'regulated/medicinal' e-cigs was in itself a victory.
The EU parliament threw out the motion for 100% regulated/medicine-only e-cigs.

... then they came up with some draconian plans in retaliation.

I will keep praying for you! I see there are more positives coming from your side of the pond lately. I hope more and more will be enlightened.

 

[tckenno]

1. No, not yet. Wait until about May 2016. Then things are getting tough.
2. In my words junk is not just disposable. Junk is cheap and only mildly effective e-cigs for maximum profit.
3. From May 2016 in the UK, the tobacco companies will be selling their devices as smoking cessation products. That's how it's going to work.
That's why they are nearly all owned by tobacco. Big tobacco (Blu) are encouraging the government to ban refillable devices.
4. Greensmoke (and the rest) are the perfect example of what the tobacco companies want to sell. More profit than cigarettes. In the UK from Summer 2016, my taxes will pay tobacco companies to 'give' e-cigarettes to people through our national health service.

Basically... this is how it is panning out.

1. Blu, Vivid, Vype spend millions on advertising. They encourage shops (all shops, doesn't matter; food, grocery, fuel (gas), household) to sell their products and throw the rest off the shelves. Eventually, Blu, Vivid and Vype is all you can buy without shopping online.
2. May 2016, the government bans refillable tanks and limits liquids to 10ml/20mg.
3. The shops selling the few brands remaining are left with sealed systems that cost $5,000 a year to vape.

Who wins? Tobacco.

There will be two products left. 'Prescription/medicinal' e-cigs made by tobacco companies.
'Sealed system/non-medicinal' products made by tobacco companies.

There will be almost no difference. One I have to buy with my own money. The other, the NHS buys with my money for people who want to quit smoking but weren't prepared to buy an e-cigarette with their own money.

That's why I am cross about it. A very sad state of affairs.

Wow you are well informed on this subject djsvapour. Kudos for that and thanks for taking the time to elaborate. You make your case well. If physicians in the UK can prescribe e-cigarettes it is far more mainstream than here in the US. When I started this thread a few days ago I had one .... in my ashtray. Now have four. Will empty when there are six to eight as always, which was 3-4 times a day. P

 

[Two_Bears]

most things involving the FDA makes no sense.

Back in 2008-9 the FDA caught wind of ecigs and confiscated shipments of stuff coming into the country. They did this by stating it was a drug. A major player (Njoy I do believe) took it to court and Judge (Leon?) ruled that it was not a drug and that the FDA would have to deem them a tobacco product in order to have ecigs fall under the FDA's regulatory thumb. At that time, it was made aware that anyone selling ecigs could not make the claim of being a smoking cessation device or it would fall under a drug category.

As a consumer, we can shout it from the rooftops that it can help you quit smoking. We aren't bound by the ruling as we aren't selling the stuff.

And so here we sit.....waiting for the deeming to come down. After being smacked down by the courts once, they are taking their time to make sure they get all their ducks in a row this time.

We don't know what is in the deeming but we do know it is in the hands of the OMB being reviewed. That all happens behind closed doors. We don't get to see what we are fighting until after it is approved

In the meantime, states are getting very scared of losing the millions in tax $$, not to mention the MSA millions, they are placing their own interpretation on ecigs.

Amazing how we finally have something that lets us enjoy nicotine in a way that is magnitudes safer and they want to take it away.....all for the love greed of money

Robino that is what happens when Bureaucrats get a little power.

 

[MyMagicMist]

... I try not to get too 'conspiracy theory' about these products.

Finding a lot of the hushed "theories" out there. * points to world at large * Seem often to hold a good number of grams of truths. Recall if you shall, not paranoia when there are actually folks out to get you. We keep calm, vape on.

 

[tckenno]

Wow you are well informed on this subject djsvapour. Kudos for that and thanks for taking the time to elaborate. You make your case well. If physicians in the UK can prescribe e-cigarettes it is far more mainstream than here in the US. When I started this thread a few days ago I had one .... in my ashtray. Now have four. Will empty when there are six to eight as always, which was 3-4 times a day. P

Oops mis-keyed and sent message prematurely. Anyway, Point is vaping is best smoking cessation method I have used. My zippo and cigs are right here on desk next to vape units. Can choose either. Not at all like agony of other methods. I wish doctors here could recommend it to patients as a "smoking cessation" method. The downside is what is happening there in the UK when government becomes involved and special interests have their way. And your right, large corporations with deep pockets and lobbyists will win.

 

[MyMagicMist]

Not sure exactly how this applies, something I noted though and thought to share.

The UK Has Just Unleashed a Free-For-All On E-Cigarette Advertising

In the UK, e-cig advertising has always been allowed, but they were only subject to general “medicines” rules covering misleading claims, harm, offense and social responsibility. From Friday (October 9) e-cig advertising will be subject to product-specific rules.
In summary, those rules include:
• Ads must not be likely to appeal particularly to people under 18, especially by reflecting or being associated with youth culture.
• People shown using e-cigarettes or playing a significant role must neither be, nor seem to be, under 25.
• Ads must not be directed at people under 18 through the selection of media or the context in which they appear.
• Ads must not encourage non-smokers or non-nicotine users to use e-cigarettes.
• Ads must make clear that the product is an e-cigarette and not a tobacco product.
• Ads cannot convey health benefits or claim they are “safer” or “healthier” than tobacco, unless the company obtains authorization for their product from the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency.
E-cig ads on TV and radio will also be subject to scheduling restrictions to reduce the chance of children being tempted into vaping.

Add that unto this other recent bit.

Public Health England: E-cigs 95% safer than smoking, considers free distribution for smokers

Public Health England, which runs the National Health Service in the largest of the U.K.’s four nations, said that a review by independent experts had found e-cigarettes to be around 95% less harmful than smoking, and said popular perceptions that they were as harmful, or a gateway to more harmful cigarette smoking among younger users, were plain wrong.
...
However, Public Health England has all but explicitly blessed handing out e-cigarettes for free to those who sign up for the NHS’s Stop Smoking help services, on the reasoning that the cost will be more than recouped in public health benefits (smoking-related diseases are still the U.K.’s biggest killer).

Not keen on how they have government set up in the U.K. and England. I could understand ire over the free ecigs if the government requires more in taxes from everyone. Rather see that cost worked into a negotiation or settlement with big tobacco footing the bill. If they do that, then maybe similar could be done in the States, and us veteran vapers could gradually transition new vapers to better gear situations.

Could imagine it as government selling it to big tobacco, "you created the problem, now, be on the right side of creating a solution." Of course, giving it thought, it is too much of a simplified solution & likely so full of improbabilities, impossibilities all for want of f___ing money, that it would not fly. "Wot? No engine!?"

 

[djsvapour]

Vaping is the best smoking cessation therapy for me (and over 1 million other people in the UK).

I don't think I would say "approval" of our health service letting people have e-cigarettes is exactly how I feel. (Probably the opposite).
Cigarettes are $12 a pack.
A medical prescription is $14.
For that, people will get $60 of tobacco products that should/would be $25 on the open market. Not great...

I don't have a problem with poor people being given the chance, but in the chain tax payers give money to Big Tobacco.
Non-smokers (tax payers) hate tobacco*. Vapers are not the greatest supporters (guessing).

What we ideally need is a non-tobacco e-cig, but they are becoming more rare every day.

* Curiously, UK non-smoking tax payers think smokers should pay extra for their healthcare... because they 'drain' the public health system.
Sadly not. Tobacco revenue is $21 billion. Health care for smokers is $12 billion. People dying prematurely saves another $16 billion.
I make that a profit from smokers of $25 billion (US) or £16 billion (UK).

 

[djsvapour]

Time to step away from this thread.

(almost)

Things have moved incredibly fast over the last 5 years. (I haven't seen it all).
I would hope for them to move on further, but it may not happen. We wait, we watch, we hope.

Three years ago, 90% of users were vaping cig-a-likes, mostly sold by enterprising e-cig companies. I equally admire and detest what they did.
Claims that one cartomizer = 40 cigarettes.
$7 of e-liquid (in 10 cartomizers) for $120.
Profit I can live with as long as there is choice and people aren't duped. In the UK, people were duped.

Refillables hit the scene. Suddenly, things looked bright. Lots of independent vendors. Lots of different products. Rapid growth. Vapefest! Cig-a-like sales started to suffer. Cig-a-like 'brands' sold out to Big Tobacco and retired to their mansions and yachts. Good for them, but not good for the many who still couldn't stop smoking as a 16mg cig-a-like (for $5,000 a year) was not enough Nicotine or satisfaction.

The rise of the brands. This is when things got a bit too 'capitalist' for my liking. Realizing how poor cig-a-likes were (and the bad media), new entrepreneurs/existing cig-a-like vendors stepped up selling re-branded Kanger/Innokin/Aspire products.
These were the days of shameful profiteering. $40 e-cigs on sale for $189.99. Made worse by the companies claiming that these products were so new and innovative, that $40 e-cig should be (was) $279.99, but you get lucky and buy it for only $190.

Vaporfi (formerly Vaporzone) would fit into this catagory. V2 and Apollo to a lesser extent.
This was made possible by some really nefarious marketing. All those 5 star reviews? Somebody paid for them. Either the new vapers (through overpriced products).
And while this was going on? Certain 'celebrities' at the heart of the community were selling out, recommending people buy a $40 e-cig for $199 so they could make $20.

Now? Government intervention spells the end of refillable tanks and hammer the last nail into the coffin of small companies that make e-liquid but can't afford testing along the lines of either a) a drug product ($millions) or b) a consumer product ($thousands).

and the threat of a total wipeout is very real, indeed.

Meanwhile, tobacco companies put up a great charade on twitter and facebook, making out like they are going to save the day, and everything will be OK. Maybe they will, but the price will be less choice, more money (for sure) and an entirely less attractive prospect to people afraid to invest in an e-cig kit. It was e-liquid in refillables that produced the gold rush in the UK. People quit, thousands every day.

Enough. Done here.

 

[Robino1]

Time to step away from this thread.

(almost)

Things have moved incredibly fast over the last 5 years. (I haven't seen it all).
I would hope for them to move on further, but it may not happen. We wait, we watch, we hope.

Three years ago, 90% of users were vaping cig-a-likes, mostly sold by enterprising e-cig companies. I equally admire and detest what they did.
Claims that one cartomizer = 40 cigarettes.
$7 of e-liquid (in 10 cartomizers) for $120.
Profit I can live with as long as there is choice and people aren't duped. In the UK, people were duped.

Refillables hit the scene. Suddenly, things looked bright. Lots of independent vendors. Lots of different products. Rapid growth. Vapefest! Cig-a-like sales started to suffer. Cig-a-like 'brands' sold out to Big Tobacco and retired to their mansions and yachts. Good for them, but not good for the many who still couldn't stop smoking as a 16mg cig-a-like (for $5,000 a year) was not enough Nicotine or satisfaction.

The rise of the brands. This is when things got a bit too 'capitalist' for my liking. Realizing how poor cig-a-likes were (and the bad media), new entrepreneurs/existing cig-a-like vendors stepped up selling re-branded Kanger/Innokin/Aspire products.
These were the days of shameful profiteering. $40 e-cigs on sale for $189.99. Made worse by the companies claiming that these products were so new and innovative, that $40 e-cig should be (was) $279.99, but you get lucky and buy it for only $190.

Vaporfi (formerly Vaporzone) would fit into this catagory. V2 and Apollo to a lesser extent.
This was made possible by some really nefarious marketing. All those 5 star reviews? Somebody paid for them. Either the new vapers (through overpriced products).
And while this was going on? Certain 'celebrities' at the heart of the community were selling out, recommending people buy a $40 e-cig for $199 so they could make $20.

Now? Government intervention spells the end of refillable tanks and hammer the last nail into the coffin of small companies that make e-liquid but can't afford testing along the lines of either a) a drug product ($millions) or b) a consumer product ($thousands).

and the threat of a total wipeout is very real, indeed.

Meanwhile, tobacco companies put up a great charade on twitter and facebook, making out like they are going to save the day, and everything will be OK. Maybe they will, but the price will be less choice, more money (for sure) and an entirely less attractive prospect to people afraid to invest in an e-cig kit. It was e-liquid in refillables that produced the gold rush in the UK. People quit, thousands every day.

Enough. Done here.

Hon, I hope you're never 'done'

 

[tckenno]

most things involving the FDA makes no sense.

Back in 2008-9 the FDA caught wind of ecigs and confiscated shipments of stuff coming into the country. They did this by stating it was a drug. A major player (Njoy I do believe) took it to court and Judge (Leon?) ruled that it was not a drug and that the FDA would have to deem them a tobacco product in order to have ecigs fall under the FDA's regulatory thumb. At that time, it was made aware that anyone selling ecigs could not make the claim of being a smoking cessation device or it would fall under a drug category.

As a consumer, we can shout it from the rooftops that it can help you quit smoking. We aren't bound by the ruling as we aren't selling the stuff.

And so here we sit.....waiting for the deeming to come down. After being smacked down by the courts once, they are taking their time to make sure they get all their ducks in a row this time.

We don't know what is in the deeming but we do know it is in the hands of the OMB being reviewed. That all happens behind closed doors. We don't get to see what we are fighting until after it is approved

In the meantime, states are getting very scared of losing the millions in tax $$, not to mention the MSA millions, they are placing their own interpretation on ecigs.

Amazing how we finally have something that lets us enjoy nicotine in a way that is magnitudes safer and they want to take it away.....all for the love greed of money

Thanks for the short history of the legal/regulatory situation Robino. This thread has given me a much better grasp of the big picture than I had previously. The UK solution as djs clearly explained is

Time to step away from this thread.

(almost)

Things have moved incredibly fast over the last 5 years. (I haven't seen it all).
I would hope for them to move on further, but it may not happen. We wait, we watch, we hope.

Three years ago, 90% of users were vaping cig-a-likes, mostly sold by enterprising e-cig companies. I equally admire and detest what they did.
Claims that one cartomizer = 40 cigarettes.
$7 of e-liquid (in 10 cartomizers) for $120.
Profit I can live with as long as there is choice and people aren't duped. In the UK, people were duped.

Refillables hit the scene. Suddenly, things looked bright. Lots of independent vendors. Lots of different products. Rapid growth. Vapefest! Cig-a-like sales started to suffer. Cig-a-like 'brands' sold out to Big Tobacco and retired to their mansions and yachts. Good for them, but not good for the many who still couldn't stop smoking as a 16mg cig-a-like (for $5,000 a year) was not enough Nicotine or satisfaction.

The rise of the brands. This is when things got a bit too 'capitalist' for my liking. Realizing how poor cig-a-likes were (and the bad media), new entrepreneurs/existing cig-a-like vendors stepped up selling re-branded Kanger/Innokin/Aspire products.
These were the days of shameful profiteering. $40 e-cigs on sale for $189.99. Made worse by the companies claiming that these products were so new and innovative, that $40 e-cig should be (was) $279.99, but you get lucky and buy it for only $190.

Vaporfi (formerly Vaporzone) would fit into this catagory. V2 and Apollo to a lesser extent.
This was made possible by some really nefarious marketing. All those 5 star reviews? Somebody paid for them. Either the new vapers (through overpriced products).
And while this was going on? Certain 'celebrities' at the heart of the community were selling out, recommending people buy a $40 e-cig for $199 so they could make $20.

Now? Government intervention spells the end of refillable tanks and hammer the last nail into the coffin of small companies that make e-liquid but can't afford testing along the lines of either a) a drug product ($millions) or b) a consumer product ($thousands).

and the threat of a total wipeout is very real, indeed.

Meanwhile, tobacco companies put up a great charade on twitter and facebook, making out like they are going to save the day, and everything will be OK. Maybe they will, but the price will be less choice, more money (for sure) and an entirely less attractive prospect to people afraid to invest in an e-cig kit. It was e-liquid in refillables that produced the gold rush in the UK. People quit, thousands every day.

Enough. Done here.

Much appreciate the info and your analysis djs. Should raise a red flag to those of us in the States. Certainly did for me.