FDA Why Isn't Vaping the FDA Center for Tobacco Product's Biggest Ally?

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wv2win

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Although I understand that choices might be limited, and prices might be higher, I wonder how much that would reduce the number of new vapers. We do have some historical precedent to look at: Did alcohol prohibition produce a severe reduction in new drinkers?................................

Prohibition is not a good comparison. With alcohol there was no alternative other than black market and the organized crime. With vaping, there is an alternative - smoking, patches, gum, etc. Not good alternatives, but no worse than before vaping. There will be no new vapers.

If the industry does not produce new vapers, then the industry will eventually become too small to sustain, or matter, or produce new products or even maintain current products other than black market which could actually end up producing dangerous products. Many a drinker died during Prohibition from drinking substances that were passed off as alcohol but were deadly. And this government could care less what happens to ex-smokers.
 

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Prohibition is not a good comparison. With alcohol there was no alternative other than black market and the organized crime. With vaping, there is an alternative - smoking, patches, gum, etc. Not good alternatives, but no worse than before vaping. There will be no new vapers.

From what I understand, safe, legal booze was available to the average Joe -- yet in small & very limited-choice quantities...


EDIT: Examples of such included doctor-prescribed, as well as for religious reasons, etc..
 
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Stosh

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Happy Memorial Day!

Vets only ever asked that promises made to them be kept.

"When the country is in danger, the military’s mission is to wreak destruction upon the enemy. It’s a harsh and bloody business, but that’s what the military’s for. As George Orwell pointed out, people sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Richard Grenier
 

wv2win

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From what I understand, safe, legal booze was available to the average Joe -- yet in small & very limited-choice quantities...

It was quite expensive and many could not afford it. Plus is was mostly only available in the larger cities. There were thousands who died from home brew and industrial alcohol poisoned by our own government:

"Pulitzer Prize-winning science journalist Deborah Blum has an article in Slate about the US government's mostly forgotten policy in the 1920s and 1930s of poisoning industrial alcohols manufactured in the US to scare people into giving up illicit drinking during Prohibition. Known as the 'chemist's war of Prohibition,' the federal poisoning program, by some estimates, killed at least 10,000 people between 1926 and 1933. The story begins with ratification of the 18th Amendment in 1919, which banned sale and consumption of alcoholic beverages in the US. By the mid-1920s, when the government saw that its 'noble experiment' was in danger of failing, it decided that the problem was that readily available methyl (industrial) alcohol — itself a poison — didn't taste nasty enough. The government put its chemists to work designing ever more unpalatable toxins — adding such chemicals as kerosene, brucine (a plant alkaloid closely related to strychnine), gasoline, benzene, cadmium, iodine, zinc, mercury salts, nicotine, ether, formaldehyde, chloroform, camphor, carbolic acid, quinine, and acetone. In 1926, in New York City, 1,200 were sickened by poisonous alcohol; 400 died. The following year, deaths climbed to 700. These numbers were repeated in cities around the country as public-health officials nationwide joined in the angry clamor to stop the poisoning program. But an official sense of higher purpose kept it in place, while lawmakers opposed to the plan were accused of being in cahoots with criminals and bootleggers. The chief medical examiner of New York City during the 1920s, one of the poisoning program's most outspoken opponents, liked to call it 'our national experiment in extermination.'"
 

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Luisa

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I agree. The ANTZ are really ticked at the FDA's CTP for not moving forward on banning flavors and internet sales (even though the FDA has no authority to do either).

BTW I want to claim credit for originally having the idea of sending flowers to Mitch Zeller.

I just googled the FDAT top sellers, and was wondering whether anyone thought that he might prefer their lovely Beauty and Grace arrangement (vase included) or perhaps The Big Hug ?

I don't think the vase is included with The Big Hug, but I like the idea of giving a big hug to Mitch. I feel the same way about Lauren Dutra and Stanton Glantz (of UCSF), plus Jamie Kopf (of Consumer Reports).

But Zeller is more photogenic.

(While we're at it, what about the CDC. Suggestions for Tim McAfee, or Tom Frieden?)
How about Black Roses for all of them?
 

Katya

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From what I understand, safe, legal booze was available to the average Joe -- yet in small & very limited-choice quantities...


EDIT: Examples of such included doctor-prescribed, as well as for religious reasons, etc..

Hmmm... Religious reasons? Ceremonial vaping? ;)
 

Jman8

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Prohibition is not a good comparison. With alcohol there was no alternative other than black market and the organized crime. With vaping, there is an alternative - smoking, patches, gum, etc. Not good alternatives, but no worse than before vaping. There will be no new vapers.

Hard to understand how prohibition isn't a good comparison when prohibition is precisely what we are talking about.

If the others are truly alternatives, then I (as a vaper) have tough time understanding how a certain type of vaper that expressively despises BT and BT's products would claim to go back to smoking (guaranteed). So, let me just ask, why wouldn't this vaper who refuses to utilize underground market, and who despises BT, go with the alternatives?

You say there will be no new vapers, but I highly disagree. An underground market would be in the works long before final rule is in full effect, and thus would only be a matter of how much is enforcement active, and to what political end is that enforcement active? Are people actually living in a world where it is harsh penalty and where individuals are targeted daily with punitive measures for attempting to purchase/sell nic base? So much so, that somehow there is no incentive by 'big crime' to say 'of all things we have on black market, this is one to stay away from, or it will ruin us?' I think not. I think it would arguably be the easiest item to find and obtain on said market. I think new vapers (that currently do not exist as vapers) will have lots of information available to them to say it is easily worth it to go to the black market to obtain this, and to greatly reduce smoking. Some new vapers will conclude otherwise. I predict a great many would not, and arguably a larger population of people will be vaping than do right now. With arguably better technology (I would say likely better).

Many a drinker died during Prohibition from drinking substances that were passed off as alcohol but were deadly. And this government could care less what happens to ex-smokers.

Some would-be vapers are likely to die during prohibition from vaping nicotine due precisely to harms that would come from the market having to be hidden. Though, here in the information age, I would find it challenging to think there wouldn't be places online that contain lots of information for all individuals to overcome risks. But still, this danger exists today and thus there are mishaps even in this period that is currently on other end of spectrum from prohibition. I think we are all in agreement that it would plausibly be much worse during days of prohibition. Which will constantly be an issue, and potentially very significant issue, against prohibitionists. If other nic based products (i.e. gum) are safely sold, then a whole bunch of people (none of whom ever care to be vapers) would be letting prohibitionists know this policy of prohibition is utterly stupid and unmanageable. As much as we'd all love for them to make that case right now, I think reality is that won't happen, and it'll take full scale black market for that to occur. For the dangerous examples to be made reality, and for it to become grander political issue than it is right now.

IMO, China would be playing a very similar role during such prohibition to what American mafia played during alcohol prohibition. Likely having every reason to see benefit under a prohibition in America, and the more harsh America appears, the better for Chinese manufacturers. Then add in other nations that could go same route, but currently don't have incentive to do so.

And I say all this, and feel comfortable in all this (politically long term), but really truly believe that vaping today in America will not be regulated out of legal existence. I think it is possible, but at most, I would say it is 15% chance that harsh regulation occurs, and for me that is up from 5% chance, from before 4/24/14.

I think regulations are inevitable, but not to the degree that all mid-level sized business or lower will exit the market, nor ever attempt to enter it. Some businesses will go under due to such regulations, but I would say not all, and more than a small handful will be left. Which is the wait and see game we are in right now, but I do like making it as clear as possible that I do not see vaping being regulated out of legal existence. Plus love noting that if prohibition were the case for America, it would stand a decent chance of being exactly the wrong move on the chess board by those who seek (strict) regulations.

Would arguably lead to 'check mate.'
 

Rossum

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Prohibition is not a good comparison. With alcohol there was no alternative other than black market and the organized crime. With vaping, there is an alternative - smoking, patches, gum, etc. Not good alternatives, but no worse than before vaping. There will be no new vapers.
I think you're underestimating people.

If the industry does not produce new vapers, then the industry will eventually become too small to sustain, or matter, or produce new products or even maintain current products other than black market which could actually end up producing dangerous products. Many a drinker died during Prohibition from drinking substances that were passed off as alcohol but were deadly. And this government could care less what happens to ex-smokers.
The industry is global. The US (which is the only place that the FDA can regulate) only has ~5% of the world's population, and a roughly corresponding fraction of the world's smokers. And we already have plenty of technically illegal vaping products being sold, e.g. something like this which is clearly in violation of 19 CFR 134.11.

Now look at a country like Singapore; e-cigarettes are outright banned there. Are there new vapers there? Yes there are.
 
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wv2win

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Already aware of many of the goings-on during that time..


Also, see my late EDIT..


A new late EDIT..

During Prohibition, Your Doctor Could Write You a Prescription for Booze | History | Smithsonian

Paying $3 - $4 for a prescription and another $3 - $4 for a pint of booze was just for rich people, not the masses. The average hourly wage in the 1920's was $0.23 - $0.30 an hour. Paying approximately 25% of your pay for one pint of booze drove many to desperate measures.
 

wv2win

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I think you're underestimating people.


The industry is global. The US (which is the only place that the FDA can regulate) only has ~5% of the world's population, and a roughly corresponding fraction of the world's smokers. And we already have plenty of technically illegal vaping products being sold, e.g. something like this which is clearly in violation of 19 CFR 134.11.

Now look at a country like Singapore; e-cigarettes are outright banned there. Are there new vapers there? Yes there are.


I think you are underestimating the power of the federal government if they decide to take a really hard stance on any vaping products that don't meet their 2007 equivalency. Items are available in Singapore (illegally) because they are still available in large populated areas of Europe and the US. Bleeding off some product from the large current supply for a small area like Singapore is easy. Plus Singapore as a government is a "mouse" in power in comparison to the US government.

Once that is significantly curtailed, production (of what we call vaping products) will take a nose dive. Then all the US government has to do is threaten the financial institutions to keep them from processing any payments to companies suspected of selling vaping supplies, regardless of country of origin. Just threaten to prosecute a few companies for processing a credit card payment, wire transfer, etc and then it is all over. Heck, Paypal refuses to process vaping supplies payments in the US simply because they were threaten with a boycott and bad publicity from the ANTZ group ASH-US.

I don't know how far they would go, but who ever thought that they would confiscate shipments to both vendors and consumers by custom control agents in 2009.
 
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aikanae1

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Although I understand that choices might be limited, and prices might be higher, I wonder how much that would reduce the number of new vapers.

I think it really depends on the market. Right now the controversy in the press is attracting more rebellious younger demographic and probably repelling those that might be older, less interested or have less access to the internet. Their information sources would be print media, tv and advertising. I've heard multiple times that getting on the internet was the source of information for vaping. If a person doesn't do that, all they know comes from Blu (etc) or WebMD, etc.

A lot of people start vaping to save money, or other reasons and quitting is not their goal. It may become their goal but that's not why they are at attracted to it at first. If any of these things are reduced it will reduce the number of new vapers.

The black market is not a solution. I also question how available the black market is in reality. It seems to me that if one develops and is accessable to most, then the laws against it also increase until it becomes too risky and it's unaccessable again. There's also a large segment fueled by new devices (vape mail) and that wouldn't continue. That's already going to cut into growth. It's just not as exciting to vape the same old nasty tobacco flavor as it is (who ever's) new flavor, etc. Most day's see FT (as one example) introducing several new clones AND several new atty's. Kanger barely logs 6 months before issuing new designs.

What's even more crazy IMO, have been the comments about the 'wild, wild west'. Isn't that another name for the "free market"? That's a bad joke.

I'm not sure where I saw it, but it was a listing of the features that supported proof why ecigs were marketed toward kids and went beyond flavors, such as "less throat hit" (i don't like TH), different eliquid delivery and amounts (customizable), etc. So it's not just flavors but all of the 2nd and 3rd generation of devices. The FDA has to appear to be willing to work with the vaping community, but I suspect it's a thin skin.

We do have to address this public health issue, one way or another. None of it makes sense IMO. Most smokers want to quit. Most approved NRT / tobacco cessation products are not helpful or successful. Most of the press releases, doctor's information and Senate hearings seem to fail to mention the actual statistic are poor in comparison to smokers who want to quit.

"unwilling or unable to quit" blames the product's failure on smokers. I think that's got a public health consequence too. I had given up trying to quit when I plucked down $100 on my first ecig. I did it because it was cheaper than smoking and I could do it in non-smoking areas. I had no intention of quitting. Another "acciedental quitter". The first week I dropped to less than a half a pack for the whole week. That was close to a miracle. No NRT product ever put a dent in my smoking before and there was nothing I hadn't tried, some even more than once.

Yes, it was possible to increase my nicotine needs through use of NRT products. I discovered that the hard way and I think it's easy to assume that technically it's possible with ecigs too. However what the FDA / CDC fail to take into account is that most smokers want to quit whether they try vaping to quit or not. Once I figured out my nicotine habit was increasing, I stopped using NRT. Later I kept an eye on how much I was smoking, whether I could go for longer periods without nicotine, and other self measures.

There is no more risk of increasing a nicotine habit from ecigs as there is from any other NRT. If anything, an ecig user is less likely to increase because so many more of the behaviors are duplicated beyond just the nicotine.

The flavors are a big draw. You can't tell me that major manufacturers haven't done studies between adults and kids. There was one article (not scientific) from Jelly Belly showing adults liked complex flavors like vanilla, carmel, coconut, coffee, cinnamon (that would include gummy bears) and kids liked simple flavors like cherry and grape. Flavor manufacturers are notoriously secretive, but someone must have data on that. There are reams of product development surrounding inhancing flavors for ecigs. What are the top sellers of eliquid?

My number one reason for initially reaching for a pv rather than a cig was the flavor. I know in the routine counseling for quitting to smoke there is the suggestion to "change brands of cigarettes" before the quit date to reduce the addiction to a particular tobacco flavor. They know flavors are important to adults.

I hate being on the defensive all the time. I'd like to hear the FDA / CDC defend NRT approval that has less than a 10% success rate and what other medical condition do they approve products with such poor results. I am tired of hearing blanket comments of their success at the end of everything. I think they need to be more truthful.

Maybe if we can put this in a more realistic light that there really isn't many alternatives for smokers who want to quit, that might help the public health arguement.

The other thing about dual use; with dual use reduction is permissable. So if someone has a cigarette it's not the same as failure. That way they are still trying to quit 24/7. It's a continual process.
 

Jman8

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The black market is not a solution. I also question how available the black market is in reality. It seems to me that if one develops and is accessable to most, then the laws against it also increase until it becomes too risky and it's unaccessable again. There's also a large segment fueled by new devices (vape mail) and that wouldn't continue. That's already going to cut into growth. It's just not as exciting to vape the same old nasty tobacco flavor as it is (who ever's) new flavor, etc. Most day's see FT (as one example) introducing several new clones AND several new atty's. Kanger barely logs 6 months before issuing new designs.

The black market isn't a 'great solution,' but is a solution to 'regulated out of legal existence.' It's a problem that counters a huge public error in judgment.

There are laws against clones. Clones are non-deceptive counterfeiting products. Their existence demonstrates that certain manufacturers simply do not care about what laws are on the book, and will proceed to produce products that are demanded and have a very viable market.

What's even more crazy IMO, have been the comments about the 'wild, wild west'. Isn't that another name for the "free market"? That's a bad joke.

It's a joke, but it is somewhat accurate, as the diacetyl tangent bears this. Me, I'm okay with free market taking care of that. But how many vapers since that has become bigger issue want strictly free market to be the solution? I would say very few, and instead want some form of 'basic regulation' to be put in place, preferably from within the industry, to overcome that sort of perceived problem. If free market determines that bottles without childproof caps are of higher demand than those with, I'm thinking there will still be enough vapers who feel strongly that all bottles ought to have that, just so vaping industry is PC.

The other thing about dual use; with dual use reduction is permissable. So if someone has a cigarette it's not the same as failure. That way they are still trying to quit 24/7. It's a continual process.

For me, the reality with dual use is moderation. With every other product I'm familiar with, moderation is good. Are moderate alcohol drinkers under harsh scrutiny or viewed as people with inherent problem? Or people that eat sugary foods in moderation? I honestly can't think of anything else that is treated like smoking is, and yet is legal, and very popular. You take smoking out of the picture, and absolutely worst cases with eCigs wouldn't even be on anyone's radar.
 

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What's even more crazy IMO, have been the comments about the 'wild, wild west'. Isn't that another name for the "free market"? That's a bad joke.

A truly free market needs to be in the environment of a 'rule of law' when products or services that harm individuals are handled by law enforcement and the justice system. But that doesn't require 'regulation' which is an attempt to 'inspect before the fact'. In a free market, actual proof of harm is necessary for the courts, not some junk science, we-know-what's-good-for-you collectivism/puritanism. Caveat Emptor should reign and it is your responsibility as a consumer to get informed. But if you are harmed by a product, the justice system is your recourse.

A black market has no such 'restrictions' as laws. Take the current illegal drug trade or the prohibition era. The reason there are drive-bys and bad drugs/alcohol is because the 'victim' has no recourse to the justice system when a deal goes wrongly. Force and violence is the only solution.

The 'wild west' in most locations, was not as 'wild' as is perceived. News writers were mainly responsible for that fallacy and then the movies and TV series that went with that same perception. There were exceptions - Deadwood - eg. was not in any legal jurisdiction at one point and was more 'wild' than say Dodge City and Tombstone.
 

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I think you are underestimating the power of the federal government if they decide to take a really hard stance on any vaping products that don't meet their 2007 equivalency.
You mean like the really hard stance they've taken against "other_stuff" for the better part of a century now? There's obviously no equipment available to vape that with, nor any extracts of the active substances in it, and no "other_stuff" users are switching from smoking it to vaping it, right?
 
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