Why Vapers are getting a BAD NAME.

[zoiDman]

You changed the wording to convey terms in 2 different situations. I've already clearly explained what was done there.

Akin to saying, is it okay if I exhale my normal air when in a mall? If yes, then it ought to be okay for me to go up to people and exhale my air forcefully into their face inches away from their nostrils.

I think you are a Little Hung Up on Words and not on Context. Go back and Read my Very 1st Post in this Thread.

It is Merely Pointing Out that that Some have Seen People use e-Cigarettes Disrespectfully First Hand. Which wv2win says he Has Not.

And that, In My Opinion, there will Always be a Small Group of People who Screw Things Up for a Larger Group of People.

 

[Myk]

Nah. Sounds like Dems to me. But terms like "Nazi" do seem to be used more often by those on one end of an extreme or another. Let me know when people start getting rounded up and gassed over where they can vape and I might roll hard instead of roll my eyes.

Edit: On second thought, it was the Republicans in Missouri who campaigned on "anti-gov't/anti-nanny-state" rhetoric that outlawed strippers from stripping in strip clubs when they got an almost veto-proof majority in the State House. A lot of them are just too chameleon-like and opportunistic to peg with black and white labeling like "Left" or "Right".

Isn't it too late if we wait for people to get gassed?
Would you like one where the ANTZ want to take away people's kids if they smoke? Smokers Could Lose Child Custody Following New Report // Third-Hand Tobacco Smoke Deadly « Pub Memo
Maybe you're not too up on the Nazi party. http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2007/250407antismoking.htm

You didn't take offense at anything said in response to your "tea bag" comment did you? Glass houses?

I do agree that there's not much difference. We have the best government money can buy.
But assuming you vote Democrat and you vape you need to start contacting the people you voted for and be willing to vote for someone else.

 

[wv2win]

.............

Then you pull out your Boiler Plate reply about Vaping = Smoking. And say that I want Vaping Banned. But Never seem to Back It with Anything..................................

Really?? You are going to try and distance yourself from your many posts supporting the proposition that we should only vape where smoking is permitted. That IS restricting vaping from anywhere other than where smoking is permitted and banning it from areas where smoking is not permitted.

I could do a time-wasting search of your posts supporting this proposition and copy and paste or you can just be honest instead of your typical convoluted, meandering posts and own what you consistently support.

 

[Myk]

If it were the "Dems" it wouldn't be happening in Utah.

If it were ONLY the Democrats...
The fact that some Republicans are in on it doesn't change the fact that it's primarily Democrats.
Come to IL and you usually won't see much difference between the two parties.

 

[zoiDman]

...

I could do a time-wasting search of your posts supporting this proposition and copy and paste or you can just be honest instead of your typical convoluted, meandering posts and own what you consistently support.

Go for It.

My views are Clear on this Matter.

Ask before Vaping on Private Property or where Smoking is Not Allow.
Respect the Will of Business Owners if the Tell you Can Not Vape in their Place of Business.
Respect Indoor Bans on e-Cigarette Use in Public Buildings and or the Work Force.
Be Respectful of those Around you when you Vape.

 

[wv2win]

Before you said, "I have seen Vapers Blowing Clouds onto the back of Peoples Heads of People in Movies." Then you changed it to, "People out there Blowing Clouds in Movies." Why did you change that?

One seems inherently rude, as in: intentionally blow your exhaled vapor onto a person. The other is, we are in a great big room and people are blowing clouds in that room, but not necessarily in the direction of anyone. As I have posted elsewhere on ECF, I met a non vaper who was in a theater sitting behind a vaper and who said the vaper was not hiding their clouds. This non vaper, sitting right behind that cloud found zero issue with it. So, suddenly I'm no longer considering the "vaping in a movie theater" a slam dunk situation. I recognize that fellow vapers will still have a mental picture of a theater sized room being filled with mist and making it hard to see the film that everyone there came to see. But, I think there is pretty good reason to doubt that mental picture, and thus deem vaping in a theater as not inherently rude. Unless people are taking a drag in, leaning forward and intentionally blowing it on the heads of other people in that theater. But you went and changed the goal posts to try and keep to the notion that vapers who vape in a movie theater are being inherently rude and are ruining it for the rest of us.

Likewise, you changed, "I have seen People have a Complete Hissy Fit when asked not to use an e-Cigarette inside a Restaurant" to "having a Fit when they are Asked to Not use an e-Cigarette in a Restaurant."

So, if you saw me in a restaurant and waitress came over and said, "sir, you're going to have to stop that." And I responded with "may I ask why? For it seems to be a non-issue given where I'm sitting in relation to other people." You then could say, Jman is having a fit when he was asked not to. But then also spin that same situation later to suggest, "people will have a complete hissy fit when asked not to." Which is painting a different picture to, I believe, make it seem as if vapers can't get their way on this issue, they turn into overly rude patrons. When reality could be they were wondering why is the policy in place. It doesn't have to be explained, but I see NO PROBLEM with asking for it to be explained. And if the response to that is, "because I said so, end of discussion." Then respect has just been taken off the table, and I shall proceed accordingly. Causing no undue harm to anyone and still finding a way to vape there if I so choose, likely with no one else noticing, including fellow vapers.

You changed the wording to convey terms in 2 different situations. I've already clearly explained what was done there.

Akin to saying, is it okay if I exhale my normal air when in a mall? If yes, then it ought to be okay for me to go up to people and exhale my air forcefully into their face inches away from their nostrils.

Excellent responses to zoiDman's convoluted posts, Jman. It's like trying to nail jelly to the wall. He will keep moving and squirming and misdirecting as much as possible by making little changes here and there and telling us we just "misunderstood".

 

[zoiDman]

Excellent responses to zoiDman's convoluted posts, Jman. It's like trying to nail jelly to the wall. He will keep moving and squirming and misdirecting as much as possible by making little changes here and there and telling us we just "misunderstood".

Not sure How I can make My Viess any Clearer than his...

My views are Clear on this Matter.

Ask before Vaping on Private Property or where Smoking is Not Allow.
Respect the Will of Business Owners if the Tell you Can Not Vape in their Place of Business.
Respect Indoor Bans on e-Cigarette Use in Public Buildings and or the Work Force.
Be Respectful of those Around you when you Vape.

Perhaps you could do the Same so that We All know just where You Stand on Things?

 

[wv2win]

....................

Ask before Vaping on Private Property or where Smoking is Not Allow................

So when I am on the 10th floor of a 50 floor smoke-free office building walking down the hallway to my intended destination and want to take a hit off of my PV, I am suppose to stop, find out where the manager of the building's office is located, go to that location, hope they are in, and then ask if I can take an inhale off my PV. If you think that is practical or makes sense, then I'll let you follow that practice.

 

[wv2win]

Not sure How I can make My Viess any Clearer than his...



Perhaps you could do the Same so that We All know just where You Stand on Things?

Unlike you, I have been stating my position directly and succinctly for several years on ECF:

Vape openly most places (not all) but do so respectfully and with common sense. And do not equate vaping to smoking by proposing that we should never vape where smoking is prohibited.

 

[zoiDman]

Unlike you, I have been stating my position directly and succinctly for several years on ECF:

Vape openly most places (not all) but do so respectfully and with common sense. And do not equate vaping to smoking by proposing that we should never vape where smoking is prohibited.

So will you Respect the Wishes of Business Owners or Public Policy Makers if they Tell You that Vaping is Not Allowed Someplace? Or are you Going to Stealth Vape?

 

[zoiDman]

So will you Respect the Wishes of Business Owners or Public Policy Makers if they Tell You that Vaping is Not Allowed Someplace? Or are you Going to Stealth Vape?

Never Mind. I think you Answered my Question in this Post.

So when I am on the 10th floor of a 50 floor smoke-free office building walking down the hallway to my intended destination and want to take a hit off of my PV, I am suppose to stop, find out where the manager of the building's office is located, go to that location, hope they are in, and then ask if I can take an inhale off my PV. If you think that is practical or makes sense, then I'll let you follow that practice.

 

[CabinetGuyScott]

Sure seem to be a Lot of Symantec Hair Splitting going on in this Thread Lately.

Mostly because words matter

Seconded by the way in which words are delivered.

Both are the foundation of ................. communication

The effective transfer and sharing of knowledge, information, experiences & opinion

And all because words matter


And there are those forces out in the world that have marshaled their collective resources to do everything in their power to communicate & persuade the 'ignorant masses' that what we do, and "e-cigarettes" & vaping should never ever be allowed.

In 'here' (the ECF universe), we strive to bring a more cohesive and broad understanding of what is at stake - for most of us, that is the continued and unencumbered use of tools/technology & as so far indicated, safe & innocuous forms of nicotine to save our LIVES from what many expected to be an early (and likely to have been most ugly death due to smoking tobacco.

We do need to be passionate, deliberate & as informed of the facts, and also, well constructed logic that guides our actions and efforts to beat back those that would happily consign right back to the depths of smoking Hell

And as Phillips & Siegel both have written extensively about, the anti nicotine & tobacco zealots (ANTZ) are no longer those 'grassroots' do-gooder crusaders they remember from the early days.

They are corporate and political animals driven to obtain profit & power with one of the most effective weapon known to Mankind: fear.

The history books show that the greatest crimes against man, have been perpetuated on this premise: with fear comes power

How is this weapon is deployed against the population? What is the method of delivery?

Via WORDS

That is why we need to continue these types of discussions/dialogues/exchanges here, as it better prepares us to engage our enemy & counter the message of fear with those who have not yet heard or seen the truth about harm reduction, and the untold benefits of e-cigarettes / vaping.

Sidebar thought - while it is clear in these exchanges, who represents the various 'positions', and many feel that there is no value in splitting semantics, parsing statements to analyize intent & meaning, just to win over their opponent - here & today.

I submit that there are untold numbers of people who never speak up and engage in these threads, but who are following this with open minds and uncertainty of their own positions.

I engage, not only to try and win you over to a different way of looking at the situation, but also those who are watching & listening closely. I may not get you, but something I/we say may just be a critical point of persuasion with that person watching from the gallery.

And without these exchanges, Uma may never have been moved to author his History of the war against e-cigs piece, and the world would have been so much poorer without it!

I was going to put in here (just to defuse the moment with a wee bit of levity) the 'close rant tag', but no - this "rant" need to be one that we collectively carry forward, and couched in the best of our efforts, as demonstrated in our calm, deliberate, considered use of words, and supplemented / enhanced & strengthened by our actions

And that, IMHO, is why words matter


Now get out there and (rhetorically) kick some ANTZ ....!!

 

[ruet]

So will you Respect the Wishes of Business Owners or Public Policy Makers if they Tell You that Vaping is Not Allowed Someplace? Or are you Going to Stealth Vape?

How is stealth vaping different that drinking soda through a straw?

 

[wv2win]

So will you Respect the Wishes of Business Owners or Public Policy Makers if they Tell You that Vaping is Not Allowed Someplace? Or are you Going to Stealth Vape?

Public Policy makers.....you mean the bozos in CA that you most likely voted for who want online sales of vaping supplies banned. Or Waxman from CA who wants vaping banned everywhere. You want me to respect your public policy makers? I not only won't respect their "wishes", I don't respect them.

 

[zoiDman]

Public Policy makers.....you mean the bozos in CA that you most likely voted for who want online sales of vaping supplies banned. Or Waxman from CA who wants vaping banned everywhere. You want me to respect your public policy makers? I not only won't respect their "wishes", I don't respect them.

Let me make this Specific. You seem to be Dodging the Question.

What about Your State and County?

 

[LDS714]

How is stealth vaping different that drinking soda through a straw?

The campaign to stigmatize soda drinkers hasn't hit it's stride yet.

 

[zoiDman]

The campaign to stigmatize soda drinkers hasn't hit it's stride yet.

You haven't been to NYC Lately have you.

 

[Jman8]

I think you are a Little Hung Up on Words and not on Context. Go back and Read my Very 1st Post in this Thread.

It is Merely Pointing Out that that Some have Seen People use e-Cigarettes Disrespectfully First Hand. Which wv2win says he Has Not.

I disagree that I am hung up on words and instead am focussing on how you changed context to fit the version of disrespectful vaper that you are harping on about. Therefore, as has been said before, it is challenging to believe you on this matter. For you a disrespectful vaper is someone blowing clouds. If it is not, then you go back and look at the context you have presented as I have quoted that and explained the changes that you did to make this point you keep making.

And that, In My Opinion, there will Always be a Small Group of People who Screw Things Up for a Larger Group of People.

And IMO, these people you are rattling on about aren't screwing things up for the larger group, while it is the ANTZ types that are. This assessment of inherently disrespectful vapers is precisely what gives vaping a bad name. As in, regardless of where you are, vaping is just an inherently rude activity to be engaged in. Anything close to that assertion is ANTZ like. If all indoors vaping is inherently rude, then chances are good that you are carrying the torch for ANTZ.

Fortunately I don't think fellow vapers fully believe this as many, to most, vapers will vape indoors on own premises. So, not too challenging to show the fallacy in the reasoning being employed, but still some here wish to argue vaping indoors is a rude activity.

 

[Jman8]

My views are Clear on this Matter.

1 - Ask before Vaping on Private Property or where Smoking is Not Allow.
2 - Respect the Will of Business Owners if the Tell you Can Not Vape in their Place of Business.
3 - Respect Indoor Bans on e-Cigarette Use in Public Buildings and or the Work Force.
4 - Be Respectful of those Around you when you Vape.

I numbered these, because as I see it #4 is the one that deals with respect.

With 1, 2 and 3, if the reasoning for not allowing it is based on ignorance or worse deception, then a discussion ought to be had. If that discussion is disallowed, then respect has been taken off the table. Hence, it isn't about respect. But #4 could still be in effect even while #1, 2 and 3 are seen as being violated. Similar to this listing:

1 - Respect the will of the government if they tell you not to vape in outdoor park areas
2 - Respect flavor bans and online sales bans
3 - Ask ANTZ if they are okay with you vaping in your own home. If they say no, then do not.
4 - Be respectful of those around you when you vape.

 

[zoiDman]

...

And IMO, these people you are rattling on about aren't screwing things up for the larger group, while it is the ANTZ types that are. ....

Two Sentence is a Rant? LOL

But this is the Heart of Why wv2win and I Disagree.

wv2win believes that we should Use an e-Cigarette Everywhere. And that by doing so we are Somehow Educating People.

Where as I have a More Moderate Approach. And believe in Asking First. And respecting the Wishes of Business Owners who Do Not Want Vaping in the Establishments.

If you Don't Believe that the Disrespectful Use of e-Cigarettes by a Small Percentage of User can not Hurt the Entire Vaping Community, you are Entitled to your Opinion.

But that is Not an Opinion that I Hold. Or that I think is Very Practical.