Why Vapers are getting a BAD NAME.

[Ohms Lawbreaker]

So did I! Political action, marketing, all kinds of chat 'em up stuff. God I hated it. No kidding, I'm not realling complaing about it too much. I was talking to a city-employed "street ambassador" security guard, though, and asked him about it. He shook his head, smiled and said it did make his job harder to keep people safe with all the thick traffic around. I said, "Yeah, I can believe it. So, the official policy is....?"

He shrugged. "Whatever happens I'm sure I'll get blamed for it." We busted a gut.

 

[DC2]

To expand on that just a bit...

The general public seems to be misinformed about what signing such a petition means.
It is generally to get an initiative on the ballot and in front of the voters.

I think a LOT of people are under the mistaken impression that it is actually some kind of vote on the issue.

The fact that it helps put issues to a public vote is why I sometimes even sign petitions I don't agree with.
Putting issues before the public for their vote should be a good thing.

 

[DC2]

I was talking to a city-employed "street ambassador" security guard, though, and asked him about it. He shook his head, smiled and said it did make his job harder to keep people safe with all the thick traffic around. I said, "Yeah, I can believe it. So, the official policy is....?"

Where do you live?

We used to have petitions circulated around here all the time, but not so much anymore.
In fact, I don't think I've seen any petition drives around here in quite some time.

I think that many businesses have eliminated that sort of thing around here.
Too many people complained I guess.

 

[Ohms Lawbreaker]

.... I sometimes even sign petitions I don't agree with....

Would you sign a petition to limit the number of people soliciting opinions/signatures/money in a given metropolitan area if a number of residents were voicing concerns? I would sign it. I think the universe might collapse in on itself but I would sign it.

I live disturbingly close to you. lol Just joking no offense but we share a state.

 

[Myk]

I propose ideas that you shoot down without honest deliberation. I've made constructive attempts at forwarding a cause among people who only seem to understand how to be destructive. I've looked up the cost of a lobbyist in my state and ran the numbers. Hard facts you have yet to dispute. You don't believe that, at least in Missouri, it's possible to raise $5,000 a month? Why do you adhere to such a destructive and defeatist mentality? Every thing's a bad idea, we're all doomed, the opposition is too strong, the opposition is too corrupt, we can't do this, we can't do that, all we can do is wait and pray for our Saviour's at CASAA and ECF to save us and the meantime we'll lash out in all directions with inflammatory and divisive language and tactics. If anyone disagrees, well... I think we've seen - destruction wins here!

But you haven't proposed any idea. You simply said, "Hey, we need a pie in the sky."
You may have looked up the cost of a lobbyist but you didn't tell me that price. It's hard for me to dispute "fact" when you keep it in your pocket. The price I heard elsewhere was $80,000 and that was for MN.
No I do not believe you're going to pry $5000 a month from vapers. You call it destructive and defeatist, I call it reality. I don't know how the MO economy is doing but your idea that people are able to spare even $500 is ridiculous.
If you haven't noticed we've gone from $20 to fill up a tank of gas to close to $100, food has gone up, services have gone up, wages have not followed suit.

I'm not Trying to make Any Inferences about How a NYC Council Member would Vote.

I'm Pointing Out that what a Small Group of Vapers Did in that Council Chambers was Viewed by Many Non-Vapers. And that their Actions Cast a Bad Light on the vaping Community as a Whole.

It is also Worth Noting that the NYC Ban is Being Closely Watched by Policy Makers in Different States on Many Different Levels. I can't think of a Worse Image to Portray to these Policy Makers than what these Vapers did in NYC.

Of course you don't make any inferences that don't suit what you want to believe. Just like you want to blame vapers for a bad light shone on vapers when that light has been on them since before there were many vapers to blame.

We could only wish NYC was being watched. The fact is nobody is waiting to watch anything. ALA/ACS is going around the country pushing these bans without waiting.
But I don't believe the stuff about "as NYC goes so goes the rest of the country". The rest of the country is nowhere near as extreme as NYC. Only those of us who live in states ruled by overly populated big cities have the problem of the big city trying to dictate to the whole state. Most people in the US enjoy freedom.

Prepare yourself because NYC is going to get real ugly as soon as the law goes into effect. There's going to be a backlash of rude vaping monkeys dancing for cameras.

 

[DC2]

Would you sign a petition to limit the number of people soliciting opinions/signatures/money in a given metropolitan area if a number of residents were voicing concerns? I would sign it. I think the universe might collapse in on itself but I would sign it.

To be honest that is one petition I would not sign.

If one does not want to sign a petition then one can say no and move on by.
But signing such petitions is just about the only way grassroots movements can still get on the ballot.

It's really one of the few ways that the "power of the people" can still come into play.
And taking that away is not a good thing from my perspective.

But yeah, the universe collapsing on itself could be another reason not to sign it.

 

[Jay-dub]

But you haven't proposed any idea. You simply said, "Hey, we need a pie in the sky."
You may have looked up the cost of a lobbyist but you didn't tell me that price. It's hard for me to dispute "fact" when you keep it in your pocket. The price I heard elsewhere was $80,000 and that was for MN.
No I do not believe you're going to pry $5000 a month from vapers. You call it destructive and defeatist, I call it reality. I don't know how the MO economy is doing but your idea that people are able to spare even $500 is ridiculous.

Too bad my math was $5.00 per person, not $500. 1000 time $5.00 a month = a lobbyist in Missouri. That's what I mean by saying "you shoot down my ideas without obvious deliberation". If you would have rationalized the numbers you would have known that yours were off, and you would have had the wherewithal to not post numbers that make no mathematical sense. But the numbers, nor reality, seem to be your motivation. Maintaining a defensive position and establishing yourself in a clique's hierarchy seems to be held in higher regard around here.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Of course you don't make any inferences that don't suit what you want to believe. Just like you want to blame vapers for a bad light shone on vapers when that light has been on them since before there were many vapers to blame.

...

I'm Not Making Inferences about the NYC Ban because that is Not What this Thread is About. If we Want to Talk about the Crazy Policies that NYC is Passing, there are Plenty of Threads to do that.

What this Thread Is About is Why Vaper's are Getting a Bad Name.

And when an Uninformed Non-Vaper Turns on the News or Hits their Web Home Page and Reads/Sees Stories Like this, I Don't see how it Helps the Vaping Community as a Whole.

 

[Jay-dub]

I'm going to ask again, because it's not as easy to give up on vaping as it is to give up on some vapists:

Are you really willing to gamble with the future of vaping because you don't believe the consorted efforts of CASAA, ECF, B&M's and consumers can't be leveraged to hire a lobbyist in each state? If not, triage what states need lobbyists the most? If the aforementioned entities worked toward such a goal I have no doubt they would succeed.

WHY DO I KEEP POSTING WHEN I KNOW NO ONE IS LISTENING! I NEED MENTAL HELP!

 

[Revelene]

Not sure if this is what you are Looking For. But it sounds like things Didn't go over to well.

"To force people outside among second-hand smoke is preposterous,” added Jay Reissberg.

E-cigarette vapers puffed away right in City Council Chambers as the councilmembers heard the arguments. The act did not sit well with some in the chamber.

“I thought it was outrageous and very disrespectful,” said Councilman James Gennaro (D-24th.) “If they think by coming and blowing smoke in the council’s face that it’s going to be sympathetic to their position, they guessed wrong.”

City Council To Consider E-Cigarette Ban « CBS New York

Perhaps the LAST group of People I would want to Piss Off with a Vape Everywhere Attitude.

Oh wow... I wouldn't vape in any kind of meeting. Heck, I wouldn't even sip on a soda... I'm the "Vape Everywhere" kind of guy but that just seemed stupid. I vape all the time at work but if I'm in a meeting with the boss or corporate... It would be job suicide to do anything other than sitting and listening with eye contact..

Some may not agree but here are a few places I won't vape...

Professional Meetings
Small spaces (ie elevator, indoor crowded lines, etc.)

I don't go to church so I won't comment on that.

I can't think of many because I'm pretty much a vape everywhere guy.

I see vaping like a fart... Probably not a perfect way to put it but it is the closest way for me to describe it.

 

[Myk]

Too bad my math was $5.00 per person, not $500. 1000 time $5.00 a month = a lobbyist in Missouri. That's what I mean by saying "you shoot down my ideas without obvious deliberation". If you would have rationalized the numbers you would have known that yours where off, and you would have had the wherewithal to not post numbers that make no mathematical sense. But the numbers, nor reality, seem to be your motivation. Maintaining a defensive position and establishing yourself in a clique's hierarchy seems to be held in higher regard around here.

So $60,000 for a MO lobbyist? And that includes wining and dining 163 house members, 34 senators and every little town's councils in the state?
For your $60,000 what you are going to get is someone like a CASAA board member handing people studies.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea. Do it. I'm saying if CASAA can only average 200 people per state after years of promotion you're not going to get 1000 in a single state willing to cough up money. Prove me wrong, I welcome it and wish you luck.

It would seem to me that it's you who's too busy taking the defensive posture to bother listening to what I've been saying or bother giving any specifics of how you plan on doing what you propose.

I'm Not Making Inferences about the NYC Ban because that is Not What this Thread is About. If we Want to Talk about the Crazy Policies that NYC is Passing, there are Plenty of Threads to do that.

What this Thread Is About is Why Vaper's are Getting a Bad Name.

And when an Uninformed Non-Vaper Turns on the News or Hits their Web Home Page and Reads/Sees Stories Like this, I Don't see how it Helps the Vaping Community as a Whole.

You can't ignore the bans, policies and history when trying to figure out "why vapers are getting a bad name" when the real reason is in those bans, policies and histories.

I don't think vaping in the council did help the vaping community as a whole. But at the point that happened they had lost and they're just grabbing for their own life preserver and letting the council know if they pass it it won't be followed. At some point civil disobedience is the right course of action.

 

[Myk]

I'm going to ask again, because it's not as easy to give up on vaping as it is to give up on some vapists:

Are you really willing to gamble with the future of vaping because you don't believe the consorted efforts of CASAA, ECF, B&M's and consumers can't be leveraged to hire a lobbyist in each state? If not, triage what states need lobbyists the most? If the aforementioned entities worked toward such a goal I have no doubt they would succeed.

WHY DO I KEEP POSTING WHEN I KNOW NO ONE IS LISTENING! I NEED MENTAL HELP!

Do it. Show me how it's done.

 

[sonicdsl]

 

[zoiDman]

...

I don't think vaping in the council did help the vaping community as a whole. But at the point that happened they had lost and they're just grabbing for their own life preserver and letting the council know if they pass it it won't be followed. At some point civil disobedience is the right course of action.

I Don't Think it Helped Either.

But you Sometimes have to Look Farther Down the Road then Where you Are Standing.

What a Small Group of Vaper's Did with their "Civil Disobedience" in NYC Didn't Help ANYONE Fighting to Defeat a Pending Ban in Their State.

And I Don't think it helped sway many On the Fence Non-Vaper's who We so dearly Need to be on Our Side.

 

[DC2]

I'm going to ask again, because it's not as easy to give up on vaping as it is to give up on some vapists:

Are you really willing to gamble with the future of vaping because you don't believe the consorted efforts of CASAA, ECF, B&M's and consumers can't be leveraged to hire a lobbyist in each state? If not, triage what states need lobbyists the most? If the aforementioned entities worked toward such a goal I have no doubt they would succeed.

WHY DO I KEEP POSTING WHEN I KNOW NO ONE IS LISTENING! I NEED MENTAL HELP!

If there was any way to ever make this happen, it would be in California.

We are facing a potential online sales ban...
We have more vape shops in Los Angeles alone than most states have...

If we can't do it here, it seems unlikely to be done anywhere else.

I don't want to discourage any great ideas, which I think that ultimately this is...
But is one lobbyist really going to make a dent in the dozens of lobbyists that our opponents have?

To be perfectly honest, I think it is folly, and a waste of effort.
But then I am starting to think all of our efforts are wasted unless we mass together nationally.

Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be working out well either.

I am a huge fan of the "fight fire with fire" thread.
A national campaign to discredit our opponents is what we really need in my opinion.

The only difference between us and them is our fire is truth, and their fire is lies.
You would think that would be enough.

I'm not trying to be defeatist, as that is the last thing I would ever want to be.
But we seem to be miles from where you wish we could be.

We've been miles from where I wished we could be for as long as I have been vaping.
And the problem is not only the money and power that oppose us, but the inaction by vapers themselves.

Not even 10,000 CASAA members yet.
In over four years.

Seriously?

 

[Myk]

I Don't Think it Helped Either.

But you Sometimes have to Look Farther Down the Road then Where you Are Standing.

What a Small Group of Vaper's Did with their "Civil Disobedience" in NYC Didn't Help ANYONE Fighting to Defeat a Pending Ban in Their State.

And I Don't think it helped sway many On the Fence Non-Vaper's who We so dearly Need to be on Our Side.

What could they have done to defeat the "pending" ban when the vote was just a formality?
There was no councilmen to sway. There was no public to sway.

Everyone knew where it was going when the council said they weren't going to include ecigs and then it was leaked that they were. Then when vapers showed up to do it your way and they had the numbers to keep it from happening it was postponed so Bloomberg could make sure it was going to happen.
At no point was the public allowed in on this.

You are ignoring what actually happened to blame vapers.

 

[Ohms Lawbreaker]

The efforts to get to the details are here and I confess to much ignorance on the cost and processes of lobbying. Though I would guess....

The out-of-pocket cost for a politician and the funds needed to buy a legislature can be quantified and then of course a strategy would be formed on how that dirty money would best be spent. Don't forget all the extra expenditures like paying pros to dig up dirty tricks and hiring some good old fashioned Sopranos style muscle. We are talking politics and some major sweeping legislation here, right?

 

[zoiDman]

What could they have done to defeat the "pending" ban when the vote was just a formality?
There was no councilmen to sway. There was no public to sway.

Everyone knew where it was going when the council said they weren't going to include ecigs and then it was leaked that they were. Then when vapers showed up to do it your way and they had the numbers to keep it from happening it was postponed so Bloomberg could make sure it was going to happen.
At no point was the public allowed in on this.

You are ignoring what actually happened to blame vapers.

You Just Don't Get It.

NYC was a Done Deal at that point. There Wasn't ANYTHING that Anyone could have done to Changed things. No One is Blaming those Vaper's for what Happened in NYC.

But what Some Here See is that that Stunt that that Small Group of Vaper's Pulled didn't Cast a Very Good Image on Vaper's a Whole.

Is This what you Want the Uninformed Public to Think that All Vaper's Do and How We All Act?

 

[Jay-dub]

The efforts to get to the details are here and I confess to much ignorance on the cost and processes of lobbying. Though I would guess....

The out-of-pocket cost for a politician and the funds needed to buy a legislature can be quantified and then of course a strategy would be formed on how that dirty money would best be spent. Don't forget all the extra expenditures like paying pros to dig up dirty tricks and hiring some good old fashioned Sopranos style muscle. We are talking politics and some major sweeping legislation here, right?

I'm familiar with the cost of retaining a lobbyist in Missouri. I have a phone conference with one on the third Wednesday of every month. I've been working with a lobbyist since the year 2000. I had a vague discussion while waiting for other members of the board that utilizes this specific lobbyist to connect. I say "a vague discussion" because I have no authority, nor the network to organize a method of retention.

Where are the constructive proposals from all the people who obviously know enough to shoot down all of my attempts at constructive proposals? Not saying they don't have them, I'm just inquiring into their locations.

 

[Ohms Lawbreaker]

Well that's pretty cool right there.