Why would HR 2058 pass?

[tj99959]

It is a shame really that I am already planning for a world where I can smoke a cigarette just fine, but I will be thrown in jail for using my vape.

I wonder what kind of loop-holes we will be able to find. However, will it make the product get priced to a point where it is not financially feasible?

I kind of feel like this isn't going to end well at all and we might not just get banned, but completely illegal.

I can see the headlines now.

DEA BUSTS MAN FOR MAKING 10ML OF e-liquid IN HIS KITCHEN.
500ml of nicotine base was also found in his freezer. Minimum sentence for possession of nic base is 100 years/100ml.

IN OTHER NEWS:
Possession of becomes legal in all 50 states.

 

[AndriaD]

It is a shame really that I am already planning for a world where I can smoke a cigarette just fine, but I will be thrown in jail for using my vape.

I wonder what kind of loop-holes we will be able to find. However, will it make the product get priced to a point where it is not financially feasible?

I kind of feel like this isn't going to end well at all and we might not just get banned, but completely illegal.

No, they won't throw you in jail for vaping... they'll just make it difficult to buy anything specifically vape-related.

Andria

 

[FormulaBass]

Slightly unrelated does anybody have access to a pdf version of HR2058 or the new FDA regulations they could upload or email to me?

 

[Robert Cromwell]

It is. At least it is a longer list than when they started

I do wish there were more D's on there. At least ONE!

Yes. But the R's control both houses...

 

[Robino1]

Slightly unrelated does anybody have access to a pdf version of HR2058 or the new FDA regulations they could upload or email to me?

Here is a link to the bill. You can probably copy and paste it into a word document: https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/2058/text

As for the FDA regulations.....the FDA is not letting the current draft be known. It is being reviewed by the OMB (?) and that is all done secretly behind closed doors.

 

[Frenchfry1942]

Good reading (again), thank-you all. It is good to let all of our State and Federal Reps know, and to call the White House.

As I understand it, either House Bill 2058 gets passed or the FDA's wants get passed.

Write, call, hope.

 

[RhynoRock]

Tobacco is still the only viable source for nicotine. Synthetic nicotine is very expensive and not nearly as effective as natural nicotine. The argument that we are not tobacco has always been suspect, besides being a waste of time and energy.

People who vape use nicotine for the same reasons people smoke, as a recreational product. If you extract the active ingredient in a product that can't be named on ECF as it is still illegal in most states, but legal in a few, it is still considered as the original product, just a different form. Legally it is the same. Extracting the active ingredient in tobacco (where all of the nicotine used by people who vape comes from) and trying to claim it is something else makes no sense both biologically and legally. The arguments that we are not tobacco have always been very weak. I have to wonder why people continue to claim it. Perhaps the Anti's have so brainwashed some that they are ashamed to admit they use a tobacco product.

No matter as that ship has sailed. The FDA is about to deem e-liquid as a tobacco product so that is the reality we have to deal with.

For many of us, probably MOST of us, it's habitual, not recreational. I replaced smoking cigarettes with vaping. Almost everyone I know who vapes is an ex smoker. People NEED this, and it's gonna be taken away. Let's hope for some luck. They'll shut this down without a second thought, because the government has bigger fish to fry.

 

[FormulaBass]

Here is a link to the bill. You can probably copy and paste it into a word document: https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/2058/text

As for the FDA regulations.....the FDA is not letting the current draft be known. It is being reviewed by the OMB (?) and that is all done secretly behind closed doors.

This is slightly confusing. If the FDA regulations are behind closed doors then where did this quote come from? What document is this from?


“(A) to ‘February 15, 2007’, shall be considered to be a reference to ‘the effective date of the regulation under which a tobacco product is deemed subject to the requirements of this Act pursuant to section 901(b)(1)’; and:

 

[crxess]

It is being reviewed by the OMB (?) and that is all done secretly behind closed doors.

The ones that sour out $$$ value in an agency plan

https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/organization_mission/

Tell me Government isn't a Business!

 

[crxess]

This is slightly confusing. If the FDA regulations are behind closed doors then where did this quote come from? What document is this from?


“(A) to ‘February 15, 2007’, shall be considered to be a reference to ‘the effective date of the regulation under which a tobacco product is deemed subject to the requirements of this Act pursuant to section 901(b)(1)’; and:

That is HR2058 The Grandfather date proposed change
NOT
The FDA Regulatory Data

 

[FormulaBass]

That is HR2058 The Grandfather date proposed change
NOT
The FDA Regulatory Data

I understand that. Where did HR2058 get the date they want to change (feb 2007)?

 

[Robino1]

I understand that. Where did HR2058 get the date they want to change (feb 2007)?

Here: https://www.federalregister.gov/art...-drug-and-cosmetic-act-as-amended-by-the#h-69

FDA also is soliciting comment on what FDA actions or regulatory approaches, if any, should be taken for proposed deemed tobacco products that are “new tobacco products” under section 910(a)(1) of the FD Act. A new tobacco product means “any tobacco product (including those products in test markets) that was not commercially marketed in the United States as of February 15, 2007;

Took me a minute to find it. I guessed at which section it was under. I guessed correctly

 

[Robino1]

Further on it states:

Based on initial information FDA has gathered and received from industry, many tobacco products we are proposing to deem that are currently being sold may not be “grandfathered” tobacco products because many were not commercially marketed or modified until after February 15, 2007. We understand that this may be particularly true in the case of e-cigarettes and similar novel products. Moreover, new products that come on the market in the future would never be grandfathered tobacco products because they would be coming on the market after February 15, 2007. We do not believe that we have the authority to alter or amend this grandfathering date, which is set by statute. Therefore, FDA believes most proposed deemed tobacco products would be considered new tobacco products and would be required to obtain an order from FDA prior to marketing under one of the three pathways listed in section VIII.A.6. As stated in sections VIII.A.6.c and VIII.A.6.d, FDA is proposing a 24-month compliance policy for manufacturers of proposed deemed products to submit marketing applications.

I wonder if the FDA did research to find the earliest time that ecigs were marketed and decided that there was nothing of value earlier than February 15, 2007. They then chose that date due to the fact that anything worth using came to market after that date.

If you look at the line that is in bold, they gathered information before settling on the date. If you look at the line that I have underlined, they think they covered their and are free to control ANYTHING that vapers use currently.

That is why we SOOOOOOO need HR2058. At least that will let products that are worthwhile to stay on the market and be protected by being Grandfathered.

 

[bacc.vap]

If these regulations go through and all devices made after 2/15/07 are not grandfathered, does that mean all the devices we have now are essentially illegal and can be confiscated or used as a reason for more invasive searches. Not to mention fines and possible jail time.

 

[Robino1]

If these regulations go through and all devices made after 2/15/07 are not grandfathered, does that mean all the devices we have now are essentially illegal and can be confiscated or used as a reason for more invasive searches. Not to mention fines and possible jail time.

Your guess is as good as mine. I can't see how they can possibly take all our devices away. I do see how they can stop companies from making them anymore.

*note to self: Do not get rid of any devices....they may become collectors items in the very near future*

 

[crxess]

I wonder if the FDA did research to find the earliest time that ecigs were marketed and decided that there was nothing of value earlier than February 15, 2007. They then chose that date due to the fact that anything worth using came to market after that date.

No, that Date was established before there was a threat/concern with e-cigs.
It came about as a major collaboration by, then, Major Tobacco manufacturers in the US and the FDA. The Regulation eliminated any and all approaching competition from Startup companies.

Smart move on the part of Big Tobacco and once again being presented to Block e-cig advancement.

 

[Robino1]

No, that Date was established before there was a threat/concern with e-cigs.
It came about as a major collaboration by, then, Major Tobacco manufacturers in the US and the FDA. The Regulation eliminated any and all approaching competition from Startup companies.

Smart move on the part of Big Tobacco and once again being presented to Block e-cig advancement.

Thanks for that explanation Crxess. I never quite understood where exactly that date was coming from. Quite convenient how it really locks down ecigs. The ones available at that time were pretty pathetic. (I'm gathering this from information gleaned from reading the 'remember back when' threads.) I wasn't aware of vaping back then and only found it in 2012. That was right on the cusp of things really taking off as far as innovation. VV was just coming into play big time.

 

[Frank_147]

Looking at a bill that would effectively kill a multi-billion dollar industry doesn't seem like it would be in the best interest from the government, they would be killing jobs thousands of jobs in addition to losing out on the millions of dollars of tax generated from sales and manufacturing.

I know everybody's freaking out that they want to keep their vape mostly because of its ability to be used as cessation device, but shouldn't we really be talking about how many people are going to lose their jobs? I know tobacco and big pharm are powerful, but this would be incredibly stupid from a political standpoint to let this pass.

Thoughts about this? Should we be changing the tone of our voice? What are manufactures doing to combat this, don't they stand to lose the most?

Simple answers:
1. Like it or not (and I definitely do not) we live in a PC society where tobacco use and products are politically incorrect, and deemed deadly in any form. The PC police can and do make the absurd point that since nicotine is derived from tobacco plants, any product that contains nicotine in any amount HAS to also be deadly and therefore should be removed from the marketplace.
2. As Americans, we like to tell the world we live in the most free and open society and culture in the entire world, in a place and time where individual freedom and choice is sacred and untouchable, and so long as we do no obvious harm to others, adults have the freedom of making personal lifestyle choices. That is increasingly NOT true, as we move closer and closer to big-government socialism and that same government intruding increasingly into every single aspect of our lives.
3. I have the advantage of having been born in 1941 and seeing my personal freedoms being steadily eroded year after year since the 1960s, until I feel like I live in a completely different country from the one I was born and raised in. This is just one more example of big-government over-reach and political stupidity running amok.

 

[RhynoRock]

Ya know, after reading thru the bill and reading the provisions, I'm getting the feeling we may not be in as big of trouble as we think. It's mostly aimed at sale and advertising. I'd think there'd be a pretty easy end-around for the most part with getting our stuff. Hell, the flavored cigarettes/flavored tobacco part was easy for companies to get around. It's merely sold as bagged "pipe tobacco" for the roll-your-own crowd. And the bill does say that application for FDA approval for new products is possible too. I also found this.

Stakeholder Letter: Regulation of E-Cigarettes and Other Tobacco Products

 

[bluecat]

Our wonderful government