Will E-Cigs ever become "mainstream" ??

[Perfectionist]

Man do I love the Internet ..... there is a Forum for just about anything and everything !!

Warm greetings to everybody on this Board and the wealth of information here is much appreciated !!

I stumbled on to E-Cigs after looking to buy some cheap gadgets from DealExtreme ..... as I smoke about a pack a day, I'm intrigued to say the least !!

I really think this product could change the entire tobacco industry ..... but only if it is properly developed, presented and priced !!

Right now it seems to be a total mess .....

The "genuine" products are way overpriced ..... not only does this put off new buyers, it will (has!) created a huge counterfeit market selling cheap imitations ..... which is extremely bad marketing for the concept as a whole, as most people being unimpressed buy the "fake" product will not bother trying it again, plus it creates a distinctly bad image and people will discourage anybody else who is considering or even actively using E-Cigs .....

In truth, these are small, simple and mass produced devices which are being made in China ..... they cost no more than $5-10 each to make, even for the best quality variety ..... the manufacturers and more importantly the retailers seem to be pricing according to typical annual cigarette costs by regular smokers ..... instead of looking to create a huge global market where they can sell in volume to make their profits ..... if they could put them out at say $20 for a starter set, it would sell like hot cakes ..... and there will naturally be a steady and growing revenue stream for the cartridges etc .....

Also, I think they have launched the concept prematurely, without "perfecting" the design ..... although typical business models do the same with any kind of new product/technology, with this market, image and reputation is key to success ..... if the average smoker has been disappointed with his first purchases, it's very unlikely he will try again to see how much the latest version has improved ..... E-Cigs have to build the reputation of being just as good as the real thing .....

I sincerely hope the manufacturers bring out an "ultimate" version in the very near future ..... an E-Cig that is exactly the same size as a real cigarette and gives the same smoking experience, offering a true alternative as opposed to just a bad compromise ..... this is well within present technical possibility ..... and would bring E-Cigs to the "mainstream" instead of leaving it to a tiny percentage of enthusiasts !!

E-Cig manufacturers need to create a much better product and target Pharmacies to be the main distributors for a full scale launch, so creating a trusted "healthy" image ..... then progressing to Bars and Nightclubs to add the "coolness" factor ..... eventually being sold in every Supermarket just like normal cigarettes ..... the last thing they should be doing is allowing/using Ebay and obscure Internet sites !!

There is so much potential money to be made from this concept ..... it amazes me how it seems to be handled in such an amateur manner ..... if Apple had designed this and launched it as the "iCig" it would be setting the world on fire !!

There is a real chance that this device could bring forth a revolution over the coming years and make smoking a far less criticised and unhealthy habit !! It could potentially save many lives and destroy the dangerously powerful influence tobacco companies have on Society and Politics and particularly their efforts to create a market in the Third World.

I'm hoping there will be a day when I see a movie with James Bond smoking an E-Cig !! :mrgreen:

 

[mikecurse]

I have no doubt that the e-cig is the future of smoking. In time the product will evolve, becoming better and cheaper. The only things I see standing in the way are:

- There is deep hatred for smoking in the general public. It will take time for haters to accept that this is different.
- Tobacco companies and retailers (cigarette stores, liquor stores, etc) stand to lose a lot of money because people who switch to e-cigs will indeed spend less money than they did on real cigs, especially as e-cig products become cheaper.

Despite those obstacles, I think e-smoking, which is CLEAN smoking, will definitely overcome and be huge. I'm sure the big tobacco companies have been looking into developing their own e-cigs, they could do it very easily. They won't spring such a product on the market though until too much e-cig competition is eating away at their real cig sales. Then they'll spring it.

I got my first e-cig four days ago (Njoy) and immediately cut my real cig consumption from 6 per day to 2. I feel better, can breathe more deeply, and my skin has more color. I am totally sold on e-smoking. If the FDA banned it it would be a CRIME. But I don't think they will. The benefits to society are too great, and I don't think smoking an e-cig is any worse than drinking a cup of coffee, and our society loves coffee.

 

[elixir]

Perfectionist I agree with you on one or two of your points

1. It would be nice to see the Electronic Cigarette Mainstream
2. They should stop the selling on ebay (I’ll say why shortly)


I think I run one of those “obscure Internet sites” you refer to. I realise a forum is about opinion and I respect yours. Unfortunately it is obvious you do not have the first idea about marketing a product like the electronic cigarette in a nanny state like ours.
We import our electronic cigarettes from China and we are the only company in the UK who have been inspected by the MHRA and Trading standards at extra expense and time from us. We have agreement from both that we are allowed to sell our product in the UK. Technically that should mean we are the only company in the UK selling the electronic cigarette legally.

I agree that they should not be sold on ebay as all the sellers sell under user names and if things get a bit rocky for them they can just disappear, and that’s just one of the many negatives to buying from ebay. Most selling electronic cigarettes on ebay are working on very small margins which is what you are after isn’t it/ Then again cheap comes with a price normally, disappointment.

I do believe one day you may get your way after all the small companies who have put up with scraping a living and worked hard to get the electronic cigarette well and truly accepted in the UK will then be kicked to the gutter, the big boys will take over and when that day comes 1 single atomising cartridge will be the same price as 20 cigarettes. Then hopefully you will be happy.


Perhaps the Following story may ring a bell.


Once upon a time everywhere on the Island when the local folk woke in the morning you found a least one bottle of milk on your doorstep. Rich, poor, old and young, summertime, wintertime and even on a Sunday that milk was there. Then one day a Dragon came from over the seas. That dragon was known in legend as the Wall Mart the Unmerciful his fore father being Tesco the Tyrant.

The dragon was very big and very hungry and he fed on the local folks money. The dragon looked around for a while and thought how will I lure all these wallets and purses into my cave. A light then came on in the dragons brain he thought “If I loose money on something they need most I can get them into my cave then charge and attack their wallets and purses and devour the lot. This will make up for my losses and help me produce more dragons we can conquer this Island.

The dragon saw the milk on the doorsteps and decided this was the product they need to sell cheap, and so they did. The local folk were told of a magic cave where milk was as cheap as water but they would have to fetch it themselves. This sounded reasonable to the local folk. So they got on their horses and in their carriages and drove for miles to save a little of their hard earned shekels only to find once in the cave the dragon consumed the rest of there shekels within minuets.

Because of the dragons greed milk could no longer be found on the doorsteps in the morning as the milk fairy had starved to death along with any local place to get milk.

Now the dragon had total power he decided now was the time to charge even more than the milk fairy ever charged for milk plus because he was so powerful he didn’t even have to pay the cow the price his goods were worth either. Win, Win the dragon thought and the dragon went on just getting bigger and stronger.

This morning one of the local folk got out of bed with banging headache after a heavy night on some cheap artificial cider potion he had purchased from the dragon. Just as he was heading for the doorstep he remembered that the milk fairy had perished. What was he to do? Banging headache no milk to ease it nowhere to buy it local and he can’t take his carriage because the potion he had consumed the previous evening still rendered him over the limit.

Remember this is the utopia you wanted.

 

[TropicalBob]

Perfectionist: I agree with almost everything you said. I even like the Apple iCig analogy. The present anyone-can-sell-anything gambit is a disaster of failed products and poor marketing.

And, funny but true, Ruyan is owned by Golden Dragon.

Considering your last line, I have to ressurect something I wrote when the forum was really new. You ought to like it:

"I, too, hope e-smoking is accepted by both smokers and governments. I'm not sure where to place my bets on either, however. I'm more fearful that governments will snuff this out as a delivery system for an addictive substance than I am that smokers wanting off their unhealthy habit/addiction will reject it. I know I need all the help I can get to stay off cigarettes.

So as I puff my e-pipe on a rainy afternoon, I wonder:

1. Would James Bond pull out an e-ciggie while lying in bed with ..... Galore? Would he offer her a vape?
2. Would Winston Churchill say, "Damn the torpedoes, I need a good e-cigar?"
3. Would Albert Einstein switch to an e-pipe on the chance that he might live long enough to develop a Theory of Irrelativity?

I hear you. We live in a different time. What once was glamorous is now disgusting. The pastime of nobility has degenerated to the point where the highest percentage of smokers is in the lowest income and educated groups. Smokers are the new pond scum. We who became addicted decades ago are confronted publicly by hand-waving fanatics convinced smokers kill babies. It's nasty out there in the real, cold world for the addicted smoker.

Sad. Will the last smoker please blow out the match?

 

[Perfectionist]

Perfectionist I agree with you on one or two of your points

1. It would be nice to see the Electronic Cigarette Mainstream
2. They should stop the selling on ebay (I’ll say why shortly)


I think I run one of those “obscure Internet sites” you refer to. I realise a forum is about opinion and I respect yours. Unfortunately it is obvious you do not have the first idea about marketing a product like the electronic cigarette in a nanny state like ours.
We import our electronic cigarettes from China and we are the only company in the UK who have been inspected by the MHRA and Trading standards at extra expense and time from us. We have agreement from both that we are allowed to sell our product in the UK. Technically that should mean we are the only company in the UK selling the electronic cigarette legally.

I agree that they should not be sold on ebay as all the sellers sell under user names and if things get a bit rocky for them they can just disappear, and that’s just one of the many negatives to buying from ebay. Most selling electronic cigarettes on ebay are working on very small margins which is what you are after isn’t it/ Then again cheap comes with a price normally, disappointment.

I do believe one day you may get your way after all the small companies who have put up with scraping a living and worked hard to get the electronic cigarette well and truly accepted in the UK will then be kicked to the gutter, the big boys will take over and when that day comes 1 single atomising cartridge will be the same price as 20 cigarettes. Then hopefully you will be happy.


Perhaps the Following story may ring a bell.


Once upon a time everywhere on the Island when the local folk woke in the morning you found a least one bottle of milk on your doorstep. Rich, poor, old and young, summertime, wintertime and even on a Sunday that milk was there. Then one day a Dragon came from over the seas. That dragon was known in legend as the Wall Mart the Unmerciful his fore father being Tesco the Tyrant.

The dragon was very big and very hungry and he fed on the local folks money. The dragon looked around for a while and thought how will I lure all these wallets and purses into my cave. A light then came on in the dragons brain he thought “If I loose money on something they need most I can get them into my cave then charge and attack their wallets and purses and devour the lot. This will make up for my losses and help me produce more dragons we can conquer this Island.

The dragon saw the milk on the doorsteps and decided this was the product they need to sell cheap, and so they did. The local folk were told of a magic cave where milk was as cheap as water but they would have to fetch it themselves. This sounded reasonable to the local folk. So they got on their horses and in their carriages and drove for miles to save a little of their hard earned shekels only to find once in the cave the dragon consumed the rest of there shekels within minuets.

Because of the dragons greed milk could no longer be found on the doorsteps in the morning as the milk fairy had starved to death along with any local place to get milk.

Now the dragon had total power he decided now was the time to charge even more than the milk fairy ever charged for milk plus because he was so powerful he didn’t even have to pay the cow the price his goods were worth either. Win, Win the dragon thought and the dragon went on just getting bigger and stronger.

This morning one of the local folk got out of bed with banging headache after a heavy night on some cheap artificial cider potion he had purchased from the dragon. Just as he was heading for the doorstep he remembered that the milk fairy had perished. What was he to do? Banging headache no milk to ease it nowhere to buy it local and he can’t take his carriage because the potion he had consumed the previous evening still rendered him over the limit.

Remember this is the utopia you wanted.

Your sentiments are to be expected as you are intent on making money out of e-cigs

With minimal overheads and operating costs, plus the unlikelihood of VAT expenses, you really should be selling at much lower prices .....

Bricks and Mortar Retailers work on a margin of 25-50% ..... however it appears you seem to be making almost 300% on your e-cig products ..... rip off Britain at it's best !!

The fact that the exact same items can be bought from ebay much cheaper and indeed can be had at wholesale prices direct from the manufacturers so easily ..... should be motivating you to compete ..... if you were to drop your e-cig prices by a third and cut cartridge prices in half you would still be making a very healthy profit, and more importantly could act as a force helping to increase the popularity of e-smoking as opposed to impeding it's growth and decelerating the development of the concept

 

[Perfectionist]

Perfectionist: I agree with almost everything you said. I even like the Apple iCig analogy. The present anyone-can-sell-anything gambit is a disaster of failed products and poor marketing.

Absolutely ..... it's almost painful to watch ..... China has stumbled upon a truly original and radical concept which could take the world by storm ..... yet they have failed to realise it's full potential and are instead just marketing it as another cheap and cheerful gadget that people may try and then eventually dispose of .....

1. Would James Bond pull out an e-ciggie while lying in bed with ..... Galore? Would he offer her a vape?
2. Would Winston Churchill say, "Damn the torpedoes, I need a good e-cigar?"
3. Would Albert Einstein switch to an e-pipe on the chance that he might live long enough to develop a Theory of Irrelativity?

Great minds think alike !

I hear you. We live in a different time. What once was glamorous is now disgusting. The pastime of nobility has degenerated to the point where the highest percentage of smokers is in the lowest income and educated groups. Smokers are the new pond scum. We who became addicted decades ago are confronted publicly by hand-waving fanatics convinced smokers kill babies. It's nasty out there in the real, cold world for the addicted smoker.

Personally I think the Pro and Anti Smoking lobbies are in bed together ..... Smoking always has (and always will be ??) a "rebellious" habit which is against the status quo ..... it is this image that keeps every new generation taking up the habit .....the day parents/teachers/governments/etc are happy about their children starting to smoke/vape will mark a steady decline in the activity !

Also, just like the Narcotics trade ..... the Politicians/Do-Gooders are actually making more profits for the Drug Dealers not less .....

 

[elixir]

Perfectionist I am now sure you and I although living in the same country don’t live in the same world 300% profit I should be so lucky.

Unlike a bricks a mortar shop you cannot just open a website site and expect people to come. There are millions of websites our there competing for sales and the only way to get sales on the web is to pay astronomical fees for adverting just to get people to visit your site, and then that doesn’t guarantee sales.

I know of some brick and mortar shops selling electronic cigarettes and far more expensive than my website you obviously haven’t checked my price.

When you run a web site you cannot hide from anybody, since selling electronic cigarettes I have been investigated by the MHRA and Trading standards. After having to make modifications to the end product at extra expense and time to my company they have both agreed to let me sell electronic cigarettes in the UK and Europe. No other electronic cigarette importer manufacturer or reseller has had as yet had authorisation from any government body as far as I know my company is the only one.

Finally Ebay sellers pay a small fee to advertise and larger fee only if they make a sale, and as I said before if things get a bit hot for them they can just vanish, we can’t.

 

[Perfectionist]

Perfectionist I am now sure you and I although living in the same country don’t live in the same world 300% profit I should be so lucky.

Modesty does not become you sir !

E-cig kits go for $25 a set at wholesale and drop well below $20 a set when bought in volume ..... even including shipping costs from China, you can buy these in for £10 each and you sell them on your website for £39.99 + £4.99 postage ! Cartridges cost no more than 15p each and you sell them for almost a £1 each !

Most retailers can only fantasise about those kinds of margins ! Seems you are lucky enough to live the dream !

Unlike a bricks a mortar shop you cannot just open a website site and expect people to come. There are millions of websites our there competing for sales and the only way to get sales on the web is to pay astronomical fees for adverting just to get people to visit your site, and then that doesn’t guarantee sales.

Compared to the Rent, Rates, Taxes and Bills a normal shop has to pay ..... your costs are almost insignificant !

I know of some brick and mortar shops selling electronic cigarettes and far more expensive than my website you obviously haven’t checked my price.

Indeed you are quite right, in fact even many Online shops are charging more than you too ..... which is precisely why you price so high yourself ..... charging as much as the market will bear to maximise profit ..... as opposed to fostering the popularity of the concept !

Not that I am questioning your prerogative in doing so, I'm just amused at your apparent denial of this !

When you run a web site you cannot hide from anybody, since selling electronic cigarettes I have been investigated by the MHRA and Trading standards. After having to make modifications to the end product at extra expense and time to my company they have both agreed to let me sell electronic cigarettes in the UK and Europe. No other electronic cigarette importer manufacturer or reseller has had as yet had authorisation from any government body as far as I know my company is the only one.

Being investigated by Trading Standards does not cost you a penny ! Nor does anybody need any Government Authorisation to sell these items as they pose no risk to anyone ! And as for javing to modify the product at great expense = LOL !! What did you have to do exactly ..... email the manufacturer and ask them to correct a few spelling mistakes in the instruction booklet they print !

Finally Ebay sellers pay a small fee to advertise and larger fee only if they make a sale, and as I said before if things get a bit hot for them they can just vanish, we can’t.

Why would things get a bit hot for them ? Building a good reputation is just as good for their business as it is for yours ..... if anything they may have even greater motivation to keep their e-cig customers happy as many of them only sell e-cigs and have nothing else to gain revenue from .....

I dearly want e-smoking to take off in Britain and believe the (present) exorbitant pricing is the main reason why it's not gaining popularity as quickly as it could be ..... as soon as China perfects the technology and produces the definitive E-cigarette (possibly within a year or two ?) ..... I plan to set up my own website and ebay shop which sells these improved versions and their refills at pretty much COST price !

My apologies to you in advance ! It's a dirty job but someone's gotta do it !

 

[elixir]

Well Perfectionist you seem to think you know it all and you say you can get starter kits for £10 including postage from China (you must let us all know where from). Good look in your endeavour let me know when your website is ready so I can let the MHRA and Trading standards know you are interested in a visit. Until you follow their guidelines you would be technically selling Electronic Cigarettes illegally in this country.

 

[swami]

Well Perfectionist you seem to think you know it all and you say you can get starter kits for £10 including postage from China (you must let us all know where from). Good look in your endeavour let me know when your website is ready so I can let the MHRA and Trading standards know you are interested in a visit. Until you follow their guidelines you would be technically selling Electronic Cigarettes illegally in this country.

One can buy from e-cig.com at wholesale price an e-cigar kit for 11.48USD + shipment... For one pcs is 22USD + 30USD shipping.

 

[Perfectionist]

Well Perfectionist you seem to think you know it all

And you seem to think that Consumers don't know anything ! Joe Public are getting wiser every day ..... especially in rip-off Britain !

and you say you can get starter kits for £10 including postage from China (you must let us all know where from).

Try Alibaba.com and you'll find dozens of Chinese traders all happy to sell you anything and everything !! I was gonna place only a small order of 100 sets to give to friends and family etc ..... in total (including shipping!) it worked out to cost about £12 a set ..... no doubt if you buy in much greater volume and use a little negotiation ..... £10 a set is easily possible ! :roll:

Good look in your endeavour

As and when I get started ..... it'll be you and your fellow profiteering comrades that will need luck in trying to compete ! :mrgreen:

let me know when your website is ready so I can let the MHRA and Trading standards know you are interested in a visit.

I will indeed ..... not that it is necessary by any means ..... but it does add a nice spin to marketing and will no doubt help sales, which you are already taking full advantage of yourself !

Until you follow their guidelines you would be technically selling Electronic Cigarettes illegally in this country.

LOL ! You should be a comedian dear boy ! If there was anything "genuinely" illegal about e-cigs then the countless bars and clubs and websites that sell them in this country, would be getting closed down as we speak !!

I can see it now Elixir ..... an SAS style raid on a nightclub like Chinawhite's ..... "Everybody drop your "illegal" e-cigs and put your hands in the air !!"

By the way, you didn't mention what particular "modifications" you needed to make to get e-cigs to become "legal" as it were ?? Don't keep it a secret old chap !!

 

[trigger]

While I was on my break in work last night, a guy sittin on my table was reading the daily mirror and I just happened to notice a big advert on one of the pages headed "Beat the Ban"! Curious, I read on. It was for a device called the Super Smoker, which is apparently on sale in newsagents, pharmacies and tobacconists in the UK! Has anyone else seen this? Is this a step forward for e cigs becoming mainstream? Here is the link to their website. http://www.supersmoker.co.uk

Anyone with me in thinking that if they do gain a legal status, then the government will capitalise on them by whacking on shed loads of tax equal to traditional cigs? Would we then have to get an e smoker license??? :x

 

[Oliver]

Hmmn, not at those prices!

But yes, I take your point - advertising in a national newspaper is a big step forward.

 

[trigger]

Hmmn, not at those prices!

Lol I thought that myself! Wasnt expecting them to cost as much as or more than some better known makes!

 

[Perfectionist]

Dude ! They are even on the Radio !

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=250&p=1280#p1280

 

[leaford]

Hmmn, not at those prices!

Lol I thought that myself! Wasnt expecting them to cost as much as or more than some better known makes!

Gotta pay for the ads somehow, right?

 

[trigger]

Yeah I totally agree, but would they not make more sales if the price was lower? Personally, if that advert was the first I had heard of e cigarettes, I would research them and find better deals, best value for money and so on and so forth. For instance, I've just bought a Ruyan titanium e cigar simple packaging version and it only cost me 30.00 gbp inc p&p. But for all we know they could turn out to be better than any other product on the market...a nice low introductory price would prob tempt me into trying one!!! hehe

 

[katink]

IF this product would really be able to get people on to e-smoking, by delivering a good device with good service, thén that product in combination with the undeniable courage, perserverance, and will to take on whole governments if neccessary that the owners indeed do show to have - could most certainly be a winning combination - that would indeed have a good chance of opening up the markets needed to make e-smoking big (and thereby undeniable for any government) in only a short period of time. If only that combination were there... if only they would want to listen to people telling them what they need to do to make this produkt better (change mouthpiece; put a second battery in the box; widen hole in atomizer; and first and foremost: change liquid in cartridges to something that does nót murder most if not all of these devices within weeks if not days).... but oh well, lets hope they finaly did listen, and will bring something onto the english market that most of it's users cán be happy about. Then maybe they could still be in time to turn things around. Half of that winning combination is in place... lets hope the other half now is or soon will be too.

Supersmoker will be taking dutch government to court somewhere halfway this month. Chance to win? Very slim I expect; unless perhaps they made a secret deal with the government ánd can prove that and it's contents beyond any doubt. We will see...

 

[EricD]

Quick note on the dragon story. There is a reason its a dragon story, that's because its a fairy tale. Firms do not take losses to gain market share because they cannot recoup those losses. It doesn't make economic sense. If they take a loss and try to increase prices above marginal or average gosts (w.e.), then other firms will see profits and enter the market. Therefore, the selling for loss you talk about doesn't make sense and companies that do that usually end up paying for it big time. But I get your sentiment. FIrms gain market share by selling at a lower price and being more efficient. However, what i think you mean to say is, there is a trade off between efficiency and choice. We, perhaps, should reserve our right to pay higher prices in order to preserve some competitors for choice purposes. In fact, i agree with that idea to the extent that when you have one large firm, any volatility can have serious repercussions on the economy, case in point - bear sterns. But its not an evil dragon that's doing it; its our love of efficiency and cheap prices that does it. "the mirror looks at you and laughs."
:?

 

[EricD]

I think the e-cigarette is a product that can go mainstream. However, I wouldn't count on government to help. This will be dictated by the market. If we e-smokers demonstrate that it is a viable and acceptable product to us, then the market will force it into the mainstream. The market likes profits and if we show it's profitable, it will be in the market. The government doesn't do radical changes like this. Perhaps it does in other ways such as environmental protection, but as we can see that is slow going to. Yes, i think we should exercise our votes (with dollars.... or yen ) and bring it into the mainstream ourselves. This is done by purchasing the products and by using them openly and explaining to others what they are, how they are used, and why the are superior. Eventually, it will have the effect of making it mainstream. In short, the question of whether or not it will go mainstream depends on whether you want it to, barring other cynical perspectives like the tobacco lobbies (for and against) will cause legislation to ban it. That is another topic and I'd rather not get into it. I'm just providing a realistic appraisal of the situation. If you want to go into the whole lobby, fda, legislation problem, well... then just give up and go home unless you want to start a lobby and begin gathering petitions to make sure they are not successful. Barring that sentiment, we should focus on how to make the market make it mainstream.