Wintergreen flavoring warning

[miketr]

I recently got a number of Lorann's flavorings, and one was called Wintergreen. I decided to try to vape it. I know it's not recommend to use oils, which I later read this is.
It didn't say "Oil of Wintergreen", on the bottle, it said Methyl Salicylate on the ingredients list. I mixed 1 ml VG, 1 ml PG, and 0.5 ml VGA with 20 drops of Wintergreen, shook it up, and vaped it. I've experienced no adverse effects from this, and it had a strong wintergreen flavor and had some throat hit.
However, some odd things happened. It louched, or turned the mix milky, when I shook it up. I then wondered if it might be an oil. Within an hour of vaping it, I decided it was too strongly flavored, and decided to remove the filler from the cartridge and clean out the cart. Well, I couldn't easily remove the poly filler material because the threads had stuck, or bonded, to the sides of the cart. It had not melted or anything, but it did get all stuck to the cart sides to the extent that I couldn't remove it. I had to tear the polyfil apart and pull it out in clumps to get all but the stuck-on threads out of the cart. Soaking in PGA did not get the stuck-on polyfill off the plastic cart.
That made me decide to get rid of what I had made so far. So I poured out the liquid, and found that it had formed a thick vaseline-like gel in the bottom of the container. I tried to wash this out, and found that the hard plastic container had been "frosted" on the inside by the mixture. So I threw it away.
Anyway, that makes it seem like Wintergreen flavoring is caustic, at least with some plastics, perhaps only when combined with one or more of the bases I list as part of the mix above. Very concerned, I've decided not to use this anymore and post this warning about it.
It made me look the substance up and read about it, and I discovered that in sufficient quantities (not very large amounts) it is toxic. The average lethal dose being 10 ml for adults. Methyl salicylate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I'm certainly not going to be using any more Wintergreen, but what I am interested in is why did this happen? Has anyone else had an experience like this with Wintergreen flavoring, and can anyone explain what occured to cause this unnerving "eating up" of the polyfill, gelling of the eLiquid, and etching of the hard plastic container?

 

[Wink]

I have Lorann's wintergreen.. same ingredient as yours and haven't had a single problem. After reading your post I checked - I have a small bottle I mixed with unflavored PG 24 mg liquid at least 6 weeks ago.. I have a small bottle and a filled 510 cart (both have been sitting for over a month). I have looked and they still look fine, smell fine, normal consistancy, poly cart filter in perfect condition. The bottle is white so I can't tell for sure about any etching. Drops come out clear, not milky. I really can't see anything unusual about these at all.
Something different has happened for you, but I don't know why. Besides the wintergreen flavor was there anything else different about your mix - any possible contamination from something else?

 

[TnA]

I also use the LorAnn's Wintergreen to make my very popular "menthol/wintergreen" mix with no issues. However, I will note that I am a dripper and have no experience w/ using this mix in carts.....but I have zero issues or side-effects.

About the methyl salicylate; since the wintergreen is so potent, the amounts that is used is so small that I'm not worried about the methyl salicylate....but then again, this is also the reason why I have less fear of using "oil-based" flavors in my mixes, too.

 

[KevinD872]

This got my attention because I recently received two 1 oz bottles of this from LorAnns. However, I haven't gotten to making juice with it yet because I am waiting on some PG.

Which Wintergreen are you guys using? Natural or artificial? I ordered the artificial. Now this has me concerned. Not only about the potential interaction mentioned, but the health concerns........ 8-o

 

[rave]

This sounds very similar to what happened to me with LorAnn's Sassafrass. I use a small plastic container with ml markings on it to mix up liquids. I mixed in my VG based nic juice, an equal amound of PG, and then added a healthy amount of sassafras. I like strong flavors because my taste buds are toast. Sassafras doesn't say anything about being an oil that I noticed, but it didn't mix up well. When I went to wash out the plastic mixing container it had a waxy coating on it. I tried soap and water and it got worse. It almost looks as if the plastic is melted. Needless to say, I threw the mix out. The container can't be cleaned by any means that I can figure out. Hmmmm ....

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Been using it on and off for a year---no issues.


Sun

 

[Angela]

Sassafras doesn't say anything about being an oil that I noticed,

From the Loranns site (emphasis mine):


Sassafras Flavor
Product Number:0120-0100
Kosher Certified. Gluten Free & Sugar Free Contains: Artificial Flavors. Insoluble in water. Appropriate for use in chocolates and coatings.


If it's insoluble in water, it's oil.

 

[rave]

Gotcha. Shoot. I was just looking at the bottle. Guess I'll look at the description on the site a bit better next time. duh. Thanks!

 

[miketr]

That is all some very interesting feedback! Also, the atty I used is now stone cold dead, no vapor, no heat, nothing. I can't think of anything else that might have contaminated things, but clearly I had a different experience from others who have had no issues. I'm going to guess perhaps mixing the Wintergreen and PGA may have caused what happened; it seems to be the only difference from the other mixes. The other possibility is the quantity - I was using about 10 drops per milliliter of eLiquid solution.
Anyway, it seems what I've been relearning the hard way is what many people have already determined on the site- that oil-based flavorings kill attys, and not slowly and a little bit at a time, but quickly and easily.

 

[RenaissancePuffer]

That's a lot of flavor for that mixture. That's 40% flavoring if you only had 2.5ml of e-liquid. I always like to use between 10-20% (flavor depending) for my mixtures, but the Lorann Wintergreen (Artifical) is fairly strong, it won't take nearly that much.

 

[Wink]

I have a different experience with using oil too. I love my cinnamon and decided to try it even though it is an oil. Hubby loves it too.. and his clove oil. At first we each dedicated one atty to use oil with in case it caused problems but no bad experiences. We've been using these oils (in my case every day, almost all day) in all our atty's for two months now and we've only lost one atty - which would be a good record without oils. We leave our PV's put together and filled overnight. We only clean when they start drawing hard - then we soak in vodka for 1-10 hours, rinse, dry and they work perfect again.
The use of oils as flavors (and the cinnamon is made strong) hasn't cause any problems at all as far as we can tell. I do have to change my polyfill more frequently with oil flavors as they get brown and lose their fluffiness quicker. I"m not recommending it.. just our experience.

 

[Angela]

If you want a good, strong, non-oil based cinnamon, have a look at flavourart (Italian-based company). I can highly recommend it!

 

[miketr]

I think it's clear from Tna and Wink's comments that Wintergreen Oil by itself was not the direct cause of this bizarre stuff. Further, while I think everyone agrees oils are not good for attys, I may have overstated about oil in general. Yes, I've used cinnamon oil and anise oil without it immediately conking out my atty. And I definitely did like the cinnamon oil in a moderate amount- it gives a great hit, although after a while I feel like I'm breathing in Red Hots.
I think I am still learning about cleaning, I've used PGA with some success, but when an atty actually goes cold (draws without difficulty, but no vapor and the element doesn't heat at all), I don't think cleaning can fix it. This one didn't get hard to draw, or start producing less smoke (I've experienced that) It just stopped working completely within a few hours of putting that mixture in it. From the feedback here, it sounds like I had some kind of mysterious one-off experience, probably very difficult to reproduce. I just wanted to throw it out on the forums to see if anyone else had experienced similar things with Wintergreen, but given the variety of responses, and no overwhelming response on Wintergreen in particular, I'm chalking it up to me inadvertently doing some things wrong, still being a learner.

 

[RenaissancePuffer]

Very well could be there miketr. We are all learning a lot as we go with these PV's, it's still quite new to a lot of us, and with the varieties of combinations out there, what worked yesterday with parts A and B may not work the same way today, with Parts A and C.

One thing to note about the atty's, you can use a multimeter to check the resistance on an atty to see if there may still be hope and if a cleaning may be necessary.

 

[Scubabatdan]

Very well could be there miketr. We are all learning a lot as we go with these PV's, it's still quite new to a lot of us, and with the varieties of combinations out there, what worked yesterday with parts A and B may not work the same way today, with Parts A and C.

One thing to note about the atty's, you can use a multimeter to check the resistance on an atty to see if there may still be hope and if a cleaning may be necessary.

Correct! I was about to chime in on the Ohms check on the atty, to further that here is how to do it. Get a multimeter from any radioshack, or auto place. Set it to Ohms

Then touch red to center, and black wire to outside if it shows resistance then the attys heating element is not broken/burned out and is allowing electricity through. But if the mutimeter/volt meter does not change then the heating element is broken/burned and beyond rescue. Here is how to test it, red to center black wire to on outside edge ie.

Should read 3.2 - 3.5 ohms.
Hope this helps
Dan

 

[JustMeAgain]

Correct! I was about to chime in on the Ohms check on the atty, to further that here is how to do it.
Should read 3.2 - 3.5 ohms.
Hope this helps
Dan

I just happened in here b/c my atty just died...first one I've lost and for some reason I expected something more distinct. I dont know what, maybe a pop or a crackle or at least a Wily E. Coyote-type poof of smoke, but I guess they just stop working?

Anyway, I saw your pictures and since we have one of those meters you posted in your pictures. When I tested it, it jumped around so there was no particular number. If it were really dead, would it have done nothing or is that a sign that it's not totally gone?

Thanks for posting that info, Dan...very helpful.

 

[KevinD872]

I just happened in here b/c my atty just died...first one I've lost and for some reason I expected something more distinct. I dont know what, maybe a pop or a crackle or at least a Wily E. Coyote-type poof of smoke, but I guess they just stop working?

Anyway, I saw your pictures and since we have one of those meters you posted in your pictures. When I tested it, it jumped around so there was no particular number. If it were really dead, would it have done nothing or is that a sign that it's not totally gone?

Thanks for posting that info, Dan...very helpful.

Generally speaking, when checking for resistance, any meter (analog or digital) should not move at all if there is no connection (probes not touching or a completely dead atty). Some may fluctuate a teeny bit, but it should be obvious. To get an idea of what kind of change you are looking for, touch the two probes together. You will see a major change on the meter. You should see a similar thing when you check your atty, but the exact reading should be different.

As for the jumping around, if your meter doesn't do that when the probes are just sitting on the desk and not touching each other, that may be a good sign. The jumping could be from the probes making good/bad contact. Make sure you are getting good contact with your probes on each part of the atty. It should settle on a number eventually or at least hover around it. You could also try changing the battery in your meter.

 

[Scubabatdan]

Does the multimeter jump around wheh the leads are touched together?

KevinD872 is right the needle or digits should plato and become stable at one reading. If you have a manual UBS passthrough try wiggling the inside connector as the silicon rubber can mash causing a no contact situation, then energize it for 10 seconds. and see if it come back to life. All the ones I have that failed the ohms check I tore down and the element was broken.

Dan

 

[miketr]

OK, that's a good idea... I used to do electronics as a hobby, and I still have my old analog multimeter; it works fine for measuring resistance, so I will try that tonight on my atty. I just needed to know what contacts to touch, and Dan's pictures show that just fine. Thanks!
PS, I understand about determining the proper Ohms reading being a more accurate test, but for those who don't want to get a multimeter, I wonder if you could just test for an unbroken circuit as a basic first test using a very inexpensive device called a continuity checker (looks a little like a pen with a light on the end of it, but you can't vape with it, and it also has testing wires coming off it) They are available at just about any home supply store. Or do you need something that measures resistance?
So, if the atty does measure as having no continuity/infinite resistance, I would be interested in taking it apart to see if I can see what the cause was, and if the rubber in the device experienced any "melting" or other effects. If it's all silicone, that would surprise me. But anyway, does anyone have links to instructions on how to go about taking apart a dead atty? (In this case it is an original 901DSE).

 

[miketr]

Couldn't find my old multimeter, so I picked up a new digital multimeter at a home supply store. I checked the dead atty, and also saw a lot of jumping around, but it was in the mega ohms range, which I would think probably indicates a mechanically unstable break in the connection. A good 901 atty gave a consistent reading in the 3-4 ohm range mentioned. Tried some good 501 attys too, and they gave consistent ohm readings more in the 2.2-2.3 ohm range.
So it looks to me like that 901 atty is basically toast. Oh well, I have a new batch of them coming in a few days... live and learn!