Wisconsin Dr. says e-cigs don't work, calls vendors pushers

Status
Not open for further replies.

Brewlady

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
I've left a comment, this is just despicable.

"The real gunslingers to watch in this shootout are the tobacco makers who want you to think that "smokeless" tobacco is much safer. They're now being joined by new snake oil salesmen, the battery-powered "no smoke" cigarette lobby that claims these gadgets safely satisfy the craving. They don't and users often find themselves back on tobacco. These guys are the real pushers."
 

5vz

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Jan 19, 2011
981
216
in here somewhere USA
I hate to tell you, but anyone can tout anything right now. Until there is Government funded testing, it is a free for all. We don't even know how safe it is to vape or any long term consequences. I don't think anyone has ever tested inhaling heated (or not heated) cake and candy flavorings. We already know the issues with inhaling that butter popcorn microwave stuff, but that is the only one, and I believe it is removed from our Government controlled foods. Not from everywhere else. We are the guinea pigs so to say.

I love vaping, but I understand that there is no quality control yet. Most companies, minus very few, are doing this from their home or apartment. The nic liquid is not FDA tested and approved, the flavors are not tested for inhalation, I have no idea about long term and constant use of VG and PG.

I only know I like it.
 

Brewlady

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Thank you! I've had discussions with people on the CDC Smoke Free facebook page, they really think that e-cigs are just as bad as tobacco. I understand why they feel this way, because there is so much misinformation about harm reduction. The only way to get people to realize that nicotine isn't the danger is for vapers to comment on articles, the more information that we can provide, the better our chances of someone actually realizing that we are trying to HELP people.
 

Dirgon

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 30, 2011
173
21
39
Saint Louis, Missouri, United States
I hate to tell you, but anyone can tout anything right now. Until there is Government funded testing, it is a free for all. We don't even know how safe it is to vape or any long term consequences. I don't think anyone has ever tested inhaling heated (or not heated) cake and candy flavorings. We already know the issues with inhaling that butter popcorn microwave stuff, but that is the only one, and I believe it is removed from our Government controlled foods. Not from everywhere else. We are the guinea pigs so to say.

I love vaping, but I understand that there is no quality control yet. Most companies, minus very few, are doing this from their home or apartment. The nic liquid is not FDA tested and approved, the flavors are not tested for inhalation, I have no idea about long term and constant use of VG and PG.

I only know I like it.

Inhaled vaporized PG and VG were tested decades ago, and PG has been used in fog machines for ages with no adverse long-term affects. Hospitals even did trials in the 70s pumping vaporized PG into air supplies in order to test its qualities as an air-borne disinfectant (and found favorable results) I don't have the sources anymore, but I found several published documents when writing a research paper on ecigs earlier this year.

Inhaled flavorings on the other hand haven't been strictly tested, but oils go airborne all the time, and with as long as candy flavorings have been around it would've been discovered by now by workers in the factories producing these (see diacetyl)

The problem isn't the lack of government funded testing, the problem is that there WAS government funded testing that found unfavorable results that were published in a very biased manner and spread like wildfire across outlets.

The point is e-cigs are harm reduction; there's plenty of testing to back that up, but the anti-tobacco (anti-nicotine) lobby preaches abstinence only.

Edit: I forgot to mention the vast amounts of PG introduced to water supplies/soil on a daily basis. It's commonly used as an environmentally-friendly antifreeze because testing was done on it and found that it freezes at much lower temperatures than water and has zero adverse affects on health when consumed by people/wildlife.
 
Last edited:

Brewlady

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
I've posted this reply on the Wisonsin State Journals website, and also posted this on the Wisconsin State Journal facebook page. I posted a similar reply on the Mayo Clinic's facebook page. PLEASE take some time to post replies, we don't have Big Tobacco lobby money, we don't have Big Pharma money, but we have the facts. I think what this doctor wrote is completely despicable, and I encourage everyone to let this doctor know that his actions aren't acceptable.

Dr. Zorba Paster recently answered a question about nicotine gum, and made some disparaging statements about electronic cigarettes in his answer. I would like to suggest that Dr. Zorba Paster take a few moments to do his own research on this product, rather than rely on the FDA's disingenuous press release regarding their findings. Electronic cigarettes contain a small amount of tobacco-specific nitrosamines (carcinogens) which occur naturally in nicotine.

Does Dr. Zorba Paster realize that electronic cigarettes were found to contain the same level of TSN's as the FDA approved nicotine patch? They both contain 8. One tobacco cigarette contains over 10,000. That alone should have enticed the good doctor to continue researching.

Does Dr. Zorba Paster realize that most adult smokers who have repeatedly failed any attempt to quit are able to completely stop using tobacco virtually overnight by using this product? I started smoking when I was barely 13, and smoked for 36 years. I had given up on trying to quit. When I purchased my first electronic cigarette kit, I really thought that it was a gimmick that would end up in the bathroom drawer, next to the expired Chantix and nicotine patches. Instead, it was the only thing that has enabled me to remain tobacco free for over a year. The biggest difference was, once I started vaping, I found cigarette smoke to be disgusting. Every other time I had tried to quit, the smell of smoke was actually enticing, and no matter how much I had wanted to quit, when my husband lit up a cigarette I wanted one too. Now, when he lights up a cigarette, it doesn't entice me, I immediately head in another direction.

Does Dr. Zorba Paster realize that Big Tobacco wants smokers to continue to smoke, and Big Pharma wants smokers to continue to buy the expensive FDA-approved quit methods that have dismal success rates? The electronic cigarette industry is in it's infancy, and U.S. vendors often run out of stock because more and more smokers are turning to this safer alternative.

Does Dr. Zorba Paster realize that the FDA tested nicotine liquid that was made in China? There are reputable companies in the United States that manufacture nicotine liquid, and most users buy U.S. liquid, not the questionable liquid produced in another country. This wonderful innovation has created a safer method of delivering nicotine without causing any harm to bystanders.

Does Dr. Zorba Paster realize that there are a number of online forums dedicated to electronic cigarettes? Did he take the time to read the success stories? The stories of the hard-core smokers, who knew they should quit but just could not, until they heard of electronic cigarettes? How many users did he talk to before he answered this question posed to him?

Does Dr. Zorba Paster realize that there is a group of individuals who are dedicated to providing truthful information to adult smokers who are desperate for a safer alternative? I joined the Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association (CASAA) shortly after I started using an electronic cigarette, and was recently elected to the Board of Directors. Our goal is to ensure that safer alternatives are properly represented to smokers. Did Dr. Zorba Paster make any attempt to contact CASAA? Did he visit our website and look at the lab reports? While many anti-tobacco groups have taken the mistaken stance that nicotine is just as dangerous as tobacco, the American Council on Science and Health correctly supports harm reduction products. Dr. Brad Rodu of the University of Louisville is doing wonderful work with his Tobacco Truth blog and the Switch & Quit Owensboro campaign. Dr. Micheal Siegel of the Boston University School of Public Health is also an advocate of harm reduction. Did Dr. Zorba Paster attempt to contact either of these professionals before he answered the question?

Does Dr. Zorba Paster realize that his answer may discourage smokers from trying to improve their health by using a safer alternative? I realize it, and as a former smoker who is now tobacco-free, I can't in good conscience allow that to happen.
 

yvilla

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Nov 18, 2008
2,063
575
Rochester, NY
Does Dr. Zorba Paster realize that the FDA tested nicotine liquid that was made in China? There are reputable companies in the United States that manufacture nicotine liquid, and most users buy U.S. liquid, not the questionable liquid produced in another country. This wonderful innovation has created a safer method of delivering nicotine without causing any harm to bystanders.

Great reply to the despicable misinformation being spread by Dr. Pastor and the others of his ilk, Brewlady, with one glaring problem, as quoted above.

I sure hope that CASAA as an organization is not falling prey to the bigoted, xenophobic and downright racist worldview I grow so sick of seeing at times here and on other vaping forums. E-Liquid from China is NOT necessarily "questionable", just as e-liquid from the US is not necessarily safe and wonderful. It would be a grave mistake for CASAA to be out there spreading that invidious misinformation.
 

Brewlady

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Great reply to the despicable misinformation being spread by Dr. Pastor and the others of his ilk, Brewlady, with one glaring problem, as quoted above.

I sure hope that CASAA as an organization is not falling prey to the bigoted, xenophobic and downright racist worldview I grow so sick of seeing at times here and on other vaping forums. E-Liquid from China is NOT necessarily "questionable", just as e-liquid from the US is not necessarily safe and wonderful. It would be a grave mistake for CASAA to be out there spreading that invidious misinformation.

Thanks for correcting me. Personally, I choose to deal with U.S. vendors. As a member of CASAA's board, I want to make sure that reduced harm alternatives remain accessible to adults. Regardless of where the liquid you use comes from.
 

Running Wolf

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Nov 22, 2011
769
461
North East Ohio
I put this guy in the same category as Dr. Phil.

What do you call a person who graduated at the top of there class in Med school? Doctor
What do you call a person who just scraped by and passed at the bottom of their class? Doctor

Makes you wonder what camp the good Pastor falls under doesn't it.

Big time agree....

This guy seems to only site one source of information and his personal opinion, which is not what science is.
 

spaceballsrules

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 6, 2011
2,858
3,261
North Carolina, USA
We ARE guinea pigs. Let's face it. There is NOT enough information out there to say one way or the other whether vaping is safe, and if not, then what makes it hazardous? We need more research to be done on the effects of inhaling specific ingredients. Vapers seem to hide under the protective umbrella provided by the FDA's view on the INGESTION of the ingredients used, but the FDA has no more information than anyone else about the INHALATION of these substances.

Also, just because the only thing produced upon exhalation is water vapor, that does not mean that is the only thing being inhaled. If H2O is the only product in the equation, then we have just found a 100% effective delivery system. Again, we need to know what is being inhaled. (Side note: If vaporizing is that effective at delivering chemical compounds to the human body, we may have just found an alternative to pills and liquids. Got a headache? Just vape some acetominophen! ;))

The point is that this is going to take a lot of research and an army of lab rats inhaling lots of compounds to find out what's really going on. Anyone who has already made up their minds on the issue of vaping safety is a fool. Looking at this thread, it's obvious that vaping is not for everyone. For jtracc, vaping may/may not have contributed to a deterioration in health. Others have reported experiencing ill effects from some ejuices, and having those effects disappear when they switched to organic ejuices. Again, we need a lot more research.

Doctors!? I really don't care what 9 out of 10 doctors say. The reason cigarettes gained so much popularity, apart from their calming soothing effects, is that 9 out of 10 doctors were prescribing cigarettes as a panacea for dealing with the stresses of life, including battle fatigue a.k.a. PTSD. Doctors.....pffffft!

You want to know what's in your juice? Call up your reps and senators and tell them to push for legislation to fund the FDA for testing. From testing, we can at least determine how to classify vaping products. It's in a grey area much like the nutriceutical(or is it nutraceutical) industry. Taking a multi-vitamin is standard for many people today, but there are many who chase supplements for very specific desired effects, and some can really send your body's systems into overload i.e. nitric oxide. And what about energy drinks? Again, we need a lot more research.

As far as the good Dr. Zorba Paster goes, he is as much a fool as anyone else who has already taken a firm position on the issue.

 

kristin

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Aug 16, 2009
10,448
21,120
CASAA - Wisconsin
casaa.org
We ARE guinea pigs. Let's face it. There is NOT enough information out there to say one way or the other whether vaping is safe, and if not, then what makes it hazardous? We need more research to be done on the effects of inhaling specific ingredients. Vapers seem to hide under the protective umbrella provided by the FDA's view on the INGESTION of the ingredients used, but the FDA has no more information than anyone else about the INHALATION of these substances.

The public is made guinea pigs for ANY product. If you think testing on lab animals or a few dozen carefully chosen human study participants tells us more than real-world reports of adverse effects, then you need to research what happened with Chantix. All "scientific research" is is an educated guess. They don't really know what is going to happen until a product gets out into real-world use and reports come back. We've had 8 years of real-world e-cigarette use and there have been no reports of serious adverse health reactions related to e-cigarettes. Compare that to the FDA MedWatch reports for Chantix and "safe and effective" pharmaceutical nicotine products over the past 8 years.

Do we know if long-term inhalation of the ingredients of e-cigarettes is harmless? No, but we can make an educated guess based on what we do know. PG is approved for human inhalation exposure by the EPA. Fog machines are in use in nightclubs, haunted houses, airline fire training and theaters. If there was a serious issue with exposure, we would have heard of reports of serious adverse effects by workers in those venues. Rats were exposed to PG in massive amounts in the 1940's and did not experience serious adverse effects. Workers in factories that use artificial flavorings are not reporting adverse health effects with the exception of two well-documented chemicals. If exposure to other flavorings caused the same negative health effects as diacetyl, were are the reports?

There just isn't any logical reason to assume e-cigarettes pose nearly the same health hazards as smoking. If you want reassurance that vaping is 100% safe for 100% of users, it's never going to happen, because such a product does not exist. If you want 100% assurance, don't inhale anything foreign into your lungs. Period. NOTHING is 100% safe for 100% of the public. Cigarettes also contain PG, flavorings and nicotine. There is NOTHING in e-cigarettes that we weren't already inhaling by smoking, but plenty is missing from e-cigarettes that we were inhaling from cigarette smoke. We know that the dangers in cigarette smoke aren't from the PG or the flavorings, they are from the toxic chemicals and massive amounts of human carcinogens formed from burning plant matter.

Even if there are some slight risks from vaping, they would still be reasonably safe for the vast majority of users and vastly safer than smoking. Reducing health risks is the whole point of e-cigarettes, not eliminating health risks. If you want to eliminate health risks, then don't inhale anything but fresh air.


The point is that this is going to take a lot of research and an army of lab rats inhaling lots of compounds to find out what's really going on. Anyone who has already made up their minds on the issue of vaping safety is a fool. Looking at this thread, it's obvious that vaping is not for everyone. For jtracc, vaping may/may not have contributed to a deterioration in health. Others have reported experiencing ill effects from some ejuices, and having those effects disappear when they switched to organic ejuices. Again, we need a lot more research.

Yet the vast majority report no serious adverse health effects. Again, if even something as benign as peanut butter could kill someone with a severe allergy, how can we expect e-cigarettes to be safe and effective for 100% of the people?

You want to know what's in your juice? Call up your reps and senators and tell them to push for legislation to fund the FDA for testing.

The FDA does not do testing like this, so this would be pointless. It requires manufacturers to pay for the research and then reviews that research. But that is required only of products which wish to claim to cure, treat or mitigate an illness or disease. E-cigarettes do not require that type of approval anymore than traditional cigarettes do. So why should e-cigarette companies pay for proof of safety when there have been no complaints, no reports of serious injury tied to e-cigarette use? Other products pulled by the FDA had numerous reports of serious adverse health effects and the FDA took action after public outcry. That is not the case with e-cigarettes - there is no outcry except from the ANTZ who do not use them. And if you are an FDA-approved drug and have numerous complaints, all they usually do is put on a little black box warning and allow you to keep selling to the public (Chantix, to name just one of many.)

E-cigarettes take a dangerous product and remove exposure to the high levels of the worst toxins and carcinogens. Since they are obviously much safer than the product they intend to replace, unless they cause illness or disease which cigarette use would NOT cause or get complaints of serious adverse health effects, there is no reason to require them to "prove" they are "safe." They just need to be safer than what they are replacing and there is absolutely no logical reason to conclude that isn't the case. Were dairy companies required to test fat-free ice cream to prove it was safe? No, because fat free ice cream is regular ice cream without the bad stuff. Why should e-cigarettes, which are basically cigarettes without most of the bad stuff, be required to prove they are safe? Making ice cream fat-free doesn't make it 100% safe compared to regular ice cream, so the FDA doesn't require it to prove it is safe. It just needs to be as safe or safer than regular ice cream. E-cigarettes should be treated the same way as compared to traditional cigarettes.

Now, that being said, should e-cigarette manufacturers be monitored to make sure that their products are being made in the safest way possible - no cheap shortcuts substituting GRAS ingredients with dangerous ingredients such as diethylene glycol, clean and sanitary manufacturing practices, full disclosure of the ingredients so consumers can make an informed purchase, warnings on the label not to swallow liquid and keep away from children and pets and offering child-resistant packaging? No sales to minors? ABSOLUTELY! Those are reasonable expectations. But unless e-cigarette use is shown to be harmful by reports of serious adverse effects by users or there are reports that manufacturers are purposely adding known harmful ingredients without public knowledge, there is no reason to require them to go through expensive (and relatively pointless) clinical trials to try to "prove" they are safe for everyone.

(My personal opinion.)
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread