I agree 100%. The blame culture sickens me. Anyone who has started smoking within the past 40 years knows the risks of smoking. They started anyway. BT makes a product that over one billion people still use. I guess they know something about tobacco. I guess they also have the resources to mass produce high quality e cigs should they choose to do so.
Would you buy an E-Cigarette from the "Big Tobacco" companies?
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Hell I DO BLAME Big Tobacco as well as myself and I'll tell you why.
Myself I blame Because I knew what I was getting into yes. BT I blame because They knew the use of their product was killing people and they didn't care. They didn't give a crap at all. They sell DEATH for MONEY. They get you Addicted to Murdering Yourself and they charge you for it!
The responsible thing for BT to do would have been to STOP SELLING The PRODUCT as soon as they learned it caused cancer.
If they had done the right thing and not sold it, I would have never agreed to try it because it would not be there as a temptation.
They tell you not to buy coke-cain or Pot or other recreational drugs because somewhere down the line somebody had to DIE for you to get that drug. Their Blood is on your hands.
That's the same with buying tobacco products. You are feeding a bunch of Murderers that take your money to use to continue to Murder others. Buying Tobacco is Blood Money and Blood is on all of our hands.
BT makes all of us accessories to Murder.
You bet I blame them. I blame me too but you cannot let BT out of their part in this by simply saying " It was my fault for making a choice to use Cigarettes.. That's the biggest load of Bull Caca I ever heard.
Myself I blame Because I knew what I was getting into yes. BT I blame because They knew the use of their product was killing people and they didn't care. They didn't give a crap at all. They sell DEATH for MONEY. They get you Addicted to Murdering Yourself and they charge you for it!
The responsible thing for BT to do would have been to STOP SELLING The PRODUCT as soon as they learned it caused cancer.
If they had done the right thing and not sold it, I would have never agreed to try it because it would not be there as a temptation.
They tell you not to buy coke-cain or Pot or other recreational drugs because somewhere down the line somebody had to DIE for you to get that drug. Their Blood is on your hands.
That's the same with buying tobacco products. You are feeding a bunch of Murderers that take your money to use to continue to Murder others. Buying Tobacco is Blood Money and Blood is on all of our hands.
BT makes all of us accessories to Murder.
You bet I blame them. I blame me too but you cannot let BT out of their part in this by simply saying " It was my fault for making a choice to use Cigarettes.. That's the biggest load of Bull Caca I ever heard.
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If big tobacco start selling E cigs you will have no choice. They will force 90% of the small companies out of business and buy the other 10%.
Truly all electronic cigarette suppliers are small companies compared to big tobacco. With the FDA now stating that they will regulate e-cigs as tobacco products I say we have a little less then 2 years before all hell breaks loose it will change everything.
Truly all electronic cigarette suppliers are small companies compared to big tobacco. With the FDA now stating that they will regulate e-cigs as tobacco products I say we have a little less then 2 years before all hell breaks loose it will change everything.
I understand how that can be a very real fear. My hopes are that the E-cig manufacturers Hardware and Liquids, ban together and form a coalition for strength against BT. We may have had that once in the form of the ECA but the ECA is gone now.. don't know why.. disbanding the ECA was Stupid!
I propose a coalition of e-cig vendors, not just the big boys like Njoy. The smaller e-cig companies can grow together if they support each other in keeping e-cigs pure and free from Big Tobacco. If they do this they can resist pressure to sell out or be forced under better than they can as individuals. I think I'll post a message in the vendors forum asking them how they feel about this idea.
i'm all for it -- millions would try it, millions would switch, millions of lives would be saved, i'd have far fewer instances of encountering second hand smoke and kissing/hugging those who reek, and i'd be able to buy quality pv's and juices at virtually any store.
You're about the 100th person to propose that, and probably about the 10th person to try to make it happen.
If you can get them to come together for the common good, you'll be a hero.
Good luck with that!
The first thing you want them to do is create a trade association.
The second thing you want them to do is start to formulate some standards.
The third thing you want them to do is start working with the FDA to promulgate reasonable regulations.
I think they should be worrying about that stuff a lot more than worrying about Big Tobacco.
At least for right now anyway.
its not a question of mistrust, but more of a ... why make the same mistake twice...Bt can't add additive and/or chemichals to PV's but they can to e-liquids.
You're about the 100th person to propose that, and probably about the 10th person to try to make it happen.
If you can get them to come together for the common good, you'll be a hero.
Good luck with that!
The first thing you want them to do is create a trade association.
The second thing you want them to do is start to formulate some standards.
The third thing you want them to do is start working with the FDA to promulgate reasonable regulations.
I think they should be worrying about that stuff a lot more than worrying about Big Tobacco.
At least for right now anyway.
I agree but I think the two will naturally go hand in hand. When they work together as one for these same purposes you mention BT will see them as a unit and not individual small companies they can so easily push around.
If others have tried this then why hasn't it happened?
Why did the ECA disband?
The ECA was only for the manufacturers. I would like to see all parties involved be members of this partnership - manufacturers, vendors and end users - much more than your regular trade association. This to me is most fair when everyone has a say at the table.
Is there an unwillingness on the part of e-cig companies to form such a partnership?
I'd like to know the answers to these questions. ( not saying you know, just throwing this out there)
We do need some regulation to guarantee safety of the products hardware and e-liguids. We need to remain a free enterprise that the government doesn't tax or put silly restrictions on. Regulation for safety Yes, government involvement No.
That's the problem I have with seeing them work with the FDA. The FDA is known to twist things into being regulated and taxed by the government in the guise of safety regulations. If we can get the safety standards set and it's approved by the FDA without the extra government interference I would be all for it.
I really don't see any need for any regulations other than that of the safety issues.
What other FDA regulations other than safety issues could there be that I may be missing?
Not falling under 'regulation', we do need peer reviewed ( I hate those words) scientific studies on the health issues involved with using e-cigs and it's e-liquids.
Peer Reviewed in the sense that other scientists agree on the methods of testing and found conclusions of these studies. But it has to be done right! In many industries scientists are bought and paid for by Big Corporations and they twist the methodologies and data to make the outcome seem in the Big Corporations interest -
-This info wrongly touted as scientific facts, comes out in many "Peer Reviewed" journals that are "Respected" and yet there is no real objective science being done here - only smoke and mirrors. - This is what we need to make sure does Not happen to any studies done relating to the safety of e-cigs.
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Blood is on our hands for vaping as well. Most of the worlds tobacco is now grown in China, it is picked by 8-12 year old boys that get sick, and occasionally die from nicotine overdose from getting it on their hands and bodies. That same tobacco is used to produce the extracted nicotine that goes into our ejuices, as well as for analogs.
Blood is on our hands for our cell phone batteries, and for the rubber in our car tires...
You can blame big tobacco for not putting a stop to their product when they found out how deadly it was, fine. But any individual smoker has only themselves to blame for becoming one.
I would buy from them if they had a quality product that was better than what I have now , but I bet it wouldn't be . The great thing about ecigs right now is that we have all benefited from the ingenuity of the modders and juice makers . Its been really neat to watch so many forum members have an idea , then build it , test it , and then start a whole business off it . I would hate to see large corporations come in and take over the industry and stop all the progress that I've seen so many push forward on this and other forums .
But on the same note, the big companies have the money to spend on expensive scientists and engineers with triple doctorates or whatever who can build the best product available
Of course, it will end up being built in Mexico or Venezuela or some such place....From the bits and pieces I've heard it seems they can't get together and cooperate.
The FDA is going to regulate with or without any trade association.
But from what I understand, a trade association can work to avoid excessive FDA regulation by showing they can regulate themselves.
What we want to do is what they have done in the UK with ECITA.
And those folks have offered to help us get the same kind of thing going over here, but with no takers as far as I know.
If big tobacco moved in they will most like make sure that all the small boutique Juice suppliers are shut down by using the FDA to say that its not being produced to meet the FDA quality control or demanding unrealistic registration fees. Juice suppliers will be one of the first to go because that is were the money is. BT & the FDA is not going to allow a small mom and pop to take there profits.
As for the Mod Builders I'm sure that they will try to hit them with a very high tax rate or pull some bs about safety regulations.
The FDA is just looking for the right argument to gain the control it needs to pass this business over to Big tobacco.
You're about the 100th person to propose that, and probably about the 10th person to try to make it happen.
If you can get them to come together for the common good, you'll be a hero.
Good luck with that!
The first thing you want them to do is create a trade association.
The second thing you want them to do is start to formulate some standards.
The third thing you want them to do is start working with the FDA to promulgate reasonable regulations.
I think they should be worrying about that stuff a lot more than worrying about Big Tobacco.
At least for right now anyway.
You are both right A trade Association is truly needed, But like you stated these companies are not willing to come together. Because right now everything is fine they are making money. It will be a different story when it all start to go down hill. Then it will be to late.
All us suppliers big & small need to understand that if we don't do something we all face the real possibility of being put out of business. We all should have come together along time ago we have been unfairly treated time & time again. Give me a good reason why I can sell a tobacco personal Vaporizer with paypay but not a e-cig? why can almost every other country sell them with paypal accept the USA. We have been getting screwed at every turn and if we don't join and do something it will only get worst. and that means you may not be-able to get your favorite juice. They may say you only can get tobacco flavor & menthol. Or worst they my not allow juice to be sold at all. stating it is a health risk and you could over dose. Doing this would be a attempted to force you all to buy refill carts so you will spend more money.
These are all thing we all need to think about.
No, I mean all the small companies that sell ecig products they order from china.
Yes, though I tested CE2's not standard attys, since I don't really care about atty's. If I order 2.8-3.0 some might be 3.2 some might be 2.6 ohms in that same package. Some might have 2 coils around the wick, some might have 5 coils around the wick.
Having product variety, and having hassle free products are not dependent on each other. I had no hassle at all when smoking cigs. Ecigs are certainly a far greater annoyance. There is no method/product that really works well because each has it's own issues.
Only reason people look for other things is because they are compromising on what they want to deal with. I'm not talking about the 'style' of the ecig, it's just a battery and it's container which doesn't change anything and there's no real hassle with the batteries themselves.
It's the atty's / cartos etc.. Do you want to refill constantly and have less flavor on carts/cartos, do you want to drip constantly and deal with carrying bottles and having sticky fingers, do you want to dry burn all the time and deal with syringe refills for cleaner flavor and less frequent refills etc...
If an ecig came out that produced huge clouds consistently, didn't require constant cleaning/blowing out, didn't get juice in your mouth, didn't deteriorate flavor for an entire weeks worth of use, was simple to refill, l;asted a long time on the same fill etc.. everyone would buy it and be happy they don't need to dedicate so much time to maintaining their ecig but can enjoy puffing on them instead..
This is a very interesting thread. Lots of ideas given by all.
I for one, would not be opposed by dealing with Big T if product and service was superior. ( I admit I am an Ayn Rand Capitalist at heart). I really like fair competition without intrusion. A good example of competition is that when I started in Telecommunications the price per minute of a long distance phone call was (for a big contracted user) $ .35, what is it now??? $ .02 At most! Let the Market decide and the consumer chose.
Now that it looks like ATF will take the overseer role for E Juice as opposed to FDA I would feel more comfortable with U.S. made products. My biggest concern is how much tax revenue the Govt. wants to bleed from all of us.
IMHO
Thanks
I for one, would not be opposed by dealing with Big T if product and service was superior. ( I admit I am an Ayn Rand Capitalist at heart). I really like fair competition without intrusion. A good example of competition is that when I started in Telecommunications the price per minute of a long distance phone call was (for a big contracted user) $ .35, what is it now??? $ .02 At most! Let the Market decide and the consumer chose.
Now that it looks like ATF will take the overseer role for E Juice as opposed to FDA I would feel more comfortable with U.S. made products. My biggest concern is how much tax revenue the Govt. wants to bleed from all of us.
IMHO
Thanks
I don't see how Big Tobacco is going to affect the inevitable...
The FDA is definitely going to start imposing regulations, although it is a process that is going to take awhile.
And the FDA will shut down any juice makers that don't follow those regulations.
And all of this will happen with or without Big Tobacco's involvement.
Unless you are arguing that Big Tobacco is going to lobby the FDA to make the regulations tougher?
Yes that's what I'm saying. Big Tobacco knows tougher regulations mean the less companies will be able to comply. Squeezing the industry to a small fraction. Think about it Electronic cigarettes is a real threat to Big T as small as it maybe. Just think how much money they are loosing because of e cigs. They pressure there lobbyist or what ever official they have on the payroll. To get bill's against e-cigs past.
It's all about money.
If they could ban e cigs then e cigs is no threat. Then they make back there profit loss.
If they could squeeze out all the current suppliers. Then they supply e cigs & juice then they make back there profit loss.
If Big T can sell the FDA on making the regulation so strict that only Big T can afford to become approved to resale they win.
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