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of course free will exists! I don't really believe in anything else; if I did I would have to believe that the things that we experience are predestined. I just don't believe that anything is predestined. We get what we get, stuff happens, we decide what were going to do about it, more stuff happens, then we die and its over.
People confuse the lack of free will for predestiny aka "Determinism" all the time but they are apples and oranges, at least for now. Subatomic particles have shown to act in a random fashion. If that randomness is real, then nothing can be predetermined.
I'm sure we can agree the brain is made up of atoms, right? So is a rock. Rock's don't have free will, neither do we. It might sound way oversimplified but it's not. Of course the brain is extremely more complex than a rock but they're made out of the same exact stuff.
Imagine the atoms in the brain as a pool table. The cue ball has just stuck a racked set of balls. Every ball on the table is now moving, each with it's own trajectory and speed. Note the speed and trajectory of each ball, then freeze time. When you unfreeze time, each ball will resume it's trajectory at the speed it was at. Free-will would be making one of those balls change speed or trajectory with no other force than one's "will", which is impossible. Free will goes against the core rules of physics. If free-will were real I see no reason why one couldn't modify matter outside of the skull as well as in it.
I'm sure we can agree the brain is made up of atoms, right? So is a rock. Rock's don't have free will, neither do we. It might sound way oversimplified but it's not. Of course the brain is extremely more complex than a rock but they're made out of the same exact stuff.
Imagine the atoms in the brain as a pool table. The cue ball has just stuck a racked set of balls. Every ball on the table is now moving, each with it's own trajectory and speed. Note the speed and trajectory of each ball, then freeze time. When you unfreeze time, each ball will resume it's trajectory at the speed it was at. Free-will would be making one of those balls change speed or trajectory with no other force than one's "will", which is impossible. Free will goes against the core rules of physics. If free-will were real I see no reason why one couldn't modify matter outside of the skull as well as in it.
I understand that, but just because my atoms do what they are designed to do, wouldn't they only effect my physiology? I don't believe my thoughts or actions happen on an atomic level. My thoughts after, all, don't effect my atomic structure and my atomic structure doesn't effect my thought -- therefor my actions. My actions could affect my atomic structure, but that's after the fact. right? Yes, we are made of the same materials as rocks or anything else, but our free will isn't effected by that -- our free will is the pool cue in your analogy.
They do and they do. If you were instantly cryogenically frozen to 0K and then instantly thawed some time later, your thought processes would resume as if nothing happened because all that happened was the matter that makes up your body was stopped. Because nothing was really altered, nothing would change.
Another analogy: If we had a machine that could copy an object atom-by-atom, you could copy a person and they would be for all intents and purposes the same person, with the same personality/memories, etc..for that instant anyways.
Memories/emotions/thought processes are all physical things that exist as matter, which must obey all rules of physics.
Also, as far as being the pool cue, you can't be the cue. The cue represents the action and the speed/direction of the balls are the reaction. i.e. the big bang.
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o.k. I see what you're getting at. I guess I'm not really sure then; On the one hand, lets say that you instantly made a "photocopy" or in this case an exact atom replica of someone and, at the same moment had both the original person and the copy cryogenically frozen in time. Now, lets say you thawed them out at the same time. They would, for a moment be finishing the same thought. But what is the likelihood that these two now individual people will go on to live completely different lives in the real world despite being identical at the atomic level and despite having lived the same life up until that point - in fact having one shared life experience. I think that because of free will, they are likely to end up not being the same person because of the choices that they will have made using their own free will. HOWEVER: On the other hand, I once read about these twin boys who were separated at birth and adopted out to two different families who lived on opposite sides of the U.S. and didn't know they were born twins. Both grew to be in the same profession, had moved to cities with the same climates, had the same hobbies, bought the same kinds of homes and cars and even married women who were similar in appearance who's names both just happened to be Susan. So, given that, I suppose you could be right. On the other, other hand, I also strongly believe that many of the "decisions" that we make are decisions that we are predisposed to make because of our genetics. For example, my cousin is an alcoholic; we grew up together, we lived in the same family, attended the same events, snuck out to party in the middle of the night etc. His dad was an alcoholic, and even though he didn't live with his dad, he became an alcoholic too - genetics isn't the same as being "predestined" in my opinion. I think that even though we made the same choices in our lives (we both went into the same profession, had similar experiences) he was more likely to become an alcoholic because of his genetics. He could have decided that the chances of his becoming an alcoholic was increased and chosen to avoid it.
But maybe you're saying that a rock is tossed into a lake and causes chain reactions atom-by-atom leading up to the chemicals in his brain "choosing" to drink anyway. I suppose anythings possible, but I don't think its likely. Plus, maybe I'm the only Atheist that believes that all "matter" could just as easily be a creation manifested by or at least malleable by our minds and could be easily controllable if we wanted to control it - or if we believed we could control it. I sort of believe that because we are all made of the same materials and because all of that material is constantly shifting and moving, I don't see why, since we are shifting and moving with it or against it we can't effectively create or control matter with our will. (maybe instead of the other way around) after all, if the matter around me can create and control me, and if all objects are all the same, then why not the other way around?
I'm sure there's some way of doing it. Just don't know exactly what that "way" is. But, I hope we don't find a way to do it... until we become more responsible and are not capable of destroying everything we touch. Free will intelligence and great power does not mix all that well. A good example is the Christian Bible story of a God, which is exactly what we don't want to be.
But let me toy with this notion some more by asking a question with a reference of "creation".
If we are, or will ever become, the "creator" and assume an understanding of everything being "created", then what "created" US? - The creation of creation?
Again, it's just another circle that doesn't have a solid answer. And, since everything seems to be running in circles, including life and death, I don't think there will ever be an answer. Additionally, I see no reason to think there ever was a beginning nor will there ever be an end. Matter is just matter and it will always be here just like it always has. The only disconnection going on is what our minds are capable of inside the realms of biological material itself. Many of us try to think in circles simply because it's a natural instinct connected to the many natural circles around us. It can become very irritating and make you feel like a tire is spinning which can't get any good traction. This can cause you to crack up and reach for a religious answer, thus applying the brakes and stopping at a false answer... Does any of this sound familiar?
I say let that tire spin like it's suppose to do. That's it's job. It's not suppose to get good traction, nor should it ever stop. Just watch the debris fly off it and put those pieces under a microscope. You have to know about all of it before you can say it was, or was not, created, or even manifested. Until then, it's just "there", and I Don't Know. Let's just see what we can get all the pieces to do before we challenge the source. Let the evidence lead the way. We're not ready for the source.
You have to think in short straight lines first. Then slowly piece those lines together and make a diagram. Although I won't be here to see the final result stretched across the universe, I still feel pretty certain the end points will connect together forming, yes, another CIRCLE. It's just the way a cycle works. Lets do our best not to break it... shall we?
May your cycle treat you well.
Have a nice day.
OH, but I didn't mean "creation" in that sense of the word. What I meant by creation was in that all matter is made of the same components and all matter is already in existence I too believe that there is no "creation". But I do believe that the matter in question can be arranged and rearranged into different forms (animal, vegetable, mineral etc.) and thereby things are "created" not by drawing the items out of nothing but by the arrangement of matter. It was suggested in the argument against free-will that I am influenced by the matter of the universe and therefor have no real free-will, but I am suggesting that (all things being equal) I could just as easily influence other matter as be influenced by it. Or you could, or
anything/anyone could. But I don't believe that someone who has found the freedom of thought and self-potential to do such an act would be able to use it with bad intentions-in fact may not see it as an exciting event as perhaps you or I might.
Aaahhh, my bad. So you only meant manufactured and/or remanufactured. Okay, that's different then.
I only know about the free will we have within our environment and government regulations. The free will to make choices of the items, and with the tools, we have at hand. It's not "real" free will, but it's all we have right now. I doubt we will ever have anything better than that, but it's a pleasant thought.
When you say "influence", you are suggesting by way of a device... correct?... as opposed to "mind over matter" (which I also don't believe in)?
From my experience and observations I see people with freedom of thought and self-potential destroying things around us every day. I don't care if they think they're Mr. Goody-2-Shoes who knows everything and helps people left and right, they are STILL capable of screwing anything up they touch. And, as long as our current society continues it's present configuration, people will STILL kill and destroy for riches and power. The only way to change that would be for us to have a better society based on technological upgrades and natural resources... Unless you're talking about arranging matter with your free mind, which would be a different story for a human who has never been treated poorly and really does have a heart of gold, but that is highly unlikely. You would have to evolve into an unrecognizable being... Something above a god, but still less powerful than the natural universe of all matter (the power stops there). After all, if you don't have any matter to work with, then that means you don't exist either.
Did that make any sense?
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It's one idea...I tend to think that people actually do rearrange matter with their minds more often than they even realize. For example; people who suffer from stigmata or those statues in italy that cry tears of blood or people who claim to have witnessed demonic possession (yes, I actually believe that these so called "miracles" actually exist). I have been toying with the idea that people create (or manifest) these phenomenon without even realizing it by rearranging the matter around them to actualize what they believe (I've heard stranger theories). But, perhaps you are right that if they realized that they were able to do such a thing they would use it with catastrophic results.
Free will does not exist. We are a product of our environment and upbringing. We adhere to the concepts of our surroundings, parents, religion, schooling. It would be rare to break from the ties and be a truly "free thinker".
do-DO-do-Do - Did I just step into the "Rosa Zone"? - LOL
Stigmata is a crazy hoax and/or mental illness... enough said there.
It has been known for some time now that many religious statues are made of brittle porous materials which soak up liquids like a sponge. Their outside is covered by paint and glaze, so that they are effectively waterproof vessels. The effect of crying a thin liquid is fairly easy and all you need is a tiny pin-hole or hair-line crack in the glaze wherever you want it. - The crying hemoglobin is a little more tricky, but it can still be done using real human blood. The blood can be mixed with heparin (a natural anticoagulant), it can also be found in the canine liver, or you can use exactly what the greeks used for their bleeding statues during animal sacrifice rituals... fish oil (you can call it old skool, really really old skool). There's also another ingredient of the statue that can cause red condensation, but I can't remember what it is.
Most of it can be explained as tricks just to gain attention of a particular religious group or to attract tourism so a town can obtain more revenue. Can't really explain all of it away simply because we don't have all the data, but I doubt any of it could be called a "miracle". Just because we don't know what conditions, or what other elements, can cause some of the other appearances, it doesn't give us an automatic license to put the miracle sticker on it... we just don't know.
Ever seen a burned out bulb light up on it's own?... I have, but I didn't call it a miracle. I went over to the light bulb and checked it out. Turned out the filament fluctuated due to temperature and humidity factors. Just as soon as it made a mere proximity to the electrode brazing, a spark formed and welded it back together... presto! Instant Light! [and the heavens opened, and the thunder quaked, and tablets of gold fell from the sky.... aaaahhhhh.... LOL] - Hmmm, maybe I should've claimed a miracle from god and accepted donations to see the Holy Light Bulb. Yeah, it was a "sign" from god. I got mad, threw the bible 3 rooms down, and this burned out light bulb came on.
I don't think my point came across correctly. I was speaking against free-will being impossible because of the laws of physics. Those same laws would go against spontaneously creating matter in the form of tears in a statue or something being simply because it was wished for. For that wish to be granted it would have to be granted by something above those laws and I think we're all in this forum because we know such a being does not exist.
See, but I don't believe that people can get what they want because they wish for it. And we're in agreement that nobody is up in the sky listening to and granting peoples wishes. But wouldn't it make sense to say that if its true that the actions of atoms and matter around us can influence and essentially negate our supposed free will, and if (we both agree on this
we are made of the same building materials as all the rest of the things in the universe, then it could be true that we influence atoms and matter around us just as much as it influences us? Why not? Why are we subject to the wills of the universe but it isn't subject to our will? That's the part that seems improbable to me. By saying that you are alleging that we, a part or piece of the universe, are less than the rest of the universe (and yet equal??) even though we both agree that all the parts and pieces of the universe are made of the same materials.
yeah, I'm not going to defend myself on that one, you pretty much nailed it. But I think they used to say the same thing to my buddy Aristotle.
anyway: that's why I called them "so called miracles" -clearly I don't believe in miracles, but I do believe in phenomenon that is yet to be explained. Just because unexplainable things happen, it doesn't make them "miracles", it just means they're unexplained.
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Exactly.
... But back to free will here. I should probably explain how I normally see free will. I use it as the standard noun, which basically says -
A voluntary decision using free and independent choice. [that's it, nothing more]
I can make any decision I want. It doesn't matter whether I can actually do what I want or not. I can make a choice that's not currently available and wait for it to become available later, or do something else which may cause it to become available sooner. I can also use my free will to give other people free will by helping them realize they do have a choice. I can put the free will realization into their minds, but it's still ultimately up to them to use that free will. I can also use my free will to regulate others and make them think they don't have any free will, but that's a lie, because you can't take away free will as long as the person is still alive. And, if you kill yourself because you don't think you have free will anymore, then it means you used your free will to commit suicide. Independent free will only ends when your brain dies and that's the only way. However, I can still pass on ideas from my free will to my children and maybe one of them will act upon it some day. So in a way, your free will can live on beyond the grave through generations. And the best part is... you don't have to write a book to do it. Maybe something as simple as this post will inspire others to use their free will more often.
So by using my free will I choose to imagine how easy it is to manipulate matter and create anything I want with some kind of new technology. It doesn't matter that I can't do it exactly at this moment, the point is I've already made the choice in my mind and something could possibly come forward with that choice in the future. It might not be me who benefits from it, but at least the seed has been planted for others to think about... That's what free will includes. It's the chain that keeps on linking.
Wheeww!... My free will is tired of talking about itself. I now choose to go to bed. Nite-Nite.
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