Travel and Vaping Amtrak responds to vaping inquiry

[Rin]

uneducated drivel. Propylene glycol is in food. Its also in injectable diazepam. Its also found in hair spray, toothpaste, deodorant, shampoo. And it is used in stage smoke making devices, fog machines as well as smoke creators used to train fire fighters.

I think their argument is based around direct inhalation of PG. But even then, I've seen nothing but positive results in studies done regarding PG.

My son can neither smell nor taste what my husband and I are vaping

My girlfriend despises cigarettes. She can smell them for 50 feet away, but I can vape right next to her, letting the vapor cloud roll right over her head, and it doesn't bother her a single bit.

 

[HeatherC]

I think their argument is based around direct inhalation of PG. But even then, I've seen nothing but positive results in studies done regarding PG.
It's used in fog machines stage smoke machines and fire fighting demos and training...u don't think these people breathed while these were being used? they inhaled them just as much as we are. And CASAA and ECA DO have info on what is actually being inhaled and it still isn't as deadly as what we were inhaling on analogs.


My girlfriend despises cigarettes. She can smell them for 50 feet away, but I can vape right next to her, letting the vapor cloud roll right over her head, and it doesn't bother her a single bit.

Phew Good to hear my son's not lying....at 15 years old it's something he does regularly LOL

 

[HeatherC]

Casaa.org - Harm Reduction

this is a link to some more info.

 

[zoiDman]

uneducated drivel. Propylene glycol is in food. Its also in injectable diazepam. Its also found in hair spray, toothpaste, deodorant, shampoo. And it is used in stage smoke making devices, fog machines as well as smoke creators used to train fire fighters. wow do we need to educate people.
...

I think something your missing here is the concept of: “Perception IS Reality”

When policy makers decide what can and can not be done, many times Scientific fact takes a backseat to Perception.

If a passenger is riding on a train and the guy behind him is blowing Billowy Clouds of vapor on his neck, the passenger could perceive that he is being harmed by second hand smoke. Doesn’t matter that it is vapor and not smoke. The passenger may not be too happy because in his mind, the train is supposed to be smoke free.

So don’t be too quick to assume that Amtrak or Anyone’s else’s decision to ban e-Cigs is solely based on ignorance or some FDA report.

 

[yvilla]

If a passenger is riding on a train and the guy behind him is blowing Billowy Clouds of vapor on his neck, the passenger could perceive that he is being harmed by second hand smoke. Doesn’t matter that it is vapor and not smoke. The passenger may not be too happy because in his mind, the train is supposed to be smoke free.

So don’t be too quick to assume that Amtrak or Anyone’s else’s decision to ban e-Cigs is solely based on ignorance or some FDA report.

I disagree. The policy is based on misinformation and lies about the nature of vapor and ecigs, whether they've factored in some hypothetical passenger's disapproval or not - because that very passenger disapproval or paranoia is itself based on the misinformation or outright lies being spread everywhere about ecigs.

Vapor is most definitely NOT smoke. Vapor is harmless, odorless and wholly inoffensive, and there is no defensible or rational basis to prohibit the use of ecigs on trains, or in any other public places.

Nor is there any need or reason to blow "billows" of vapor at people either, however. Common sense and common courtesy are all that is required. When I used my ecig throughout a two day there and back train trip recently, no one even knew about it.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Vapor is most definitely NOT smoke. Vapor is harmless, odorless and wholly inoffensive, and there is no defensible or rational basis to prohibit the use of ecigs on trains, or in any other public places.
...

What do you base the statement that "Vapor is harmless" on?

How can you say that vapor is "wholly inoffensive" to All people?

Amtrak's policy regarding e-Cig use on Their trains neither needs to be "defensible" nor "rational".

It is your choice to ride Their trains under their policy if you choose to. If you disagree with their policy regarding e-Cigs, you can choose not to ride on them.

 

[zoiDman]

Nor is there any need or reason to blow "billows" of vapor at people either, however. Common sense and common courtesy are all that is required.
...

BTW - If we have to rely on people using “Common Sense” and “Common Courtesy” then we are All doomed.

 

[HeatherC]

BTW - If we have to rely on people using “Common Sense” and “Common Courtesy” then we are All doomed.

I agree...oxymoronic

 

[HeatherC]

I think something your missing here is the concept of: “Perception IS Reality”

When policy makers decide what can and can not be done, many times Scientific fact takes a backseat to Perception.

If a passenger is riding on a train and the guy behind him is blowing Billowy Clouds of vapor on his neck, the passenger could perceive that he is being harmed by second hand smoke. Doesn’t matter that it is vapor and not smoke. The passenger may not be too happy because in his mind, the train is supposed to be smoke free.

So don’t be too quick to assume that Amtrak or Anyone’s else’s decision to ban e-Cigs is solely based on ignorance or some FDA report.

and no I don't miss that point at all....I just wish people would think before and research before they do things that may or may not hurt others. And I also agree that some respect is needed for nonvapers but not to the extent that we vapers are then forced into a situation where we are again inhaling second hand smoke which we have chosen to avoid by making this switch in the first place. (there are many places that will allow vaping but only in the smoking section)

 

[Eternityroad]

I just wish people would think before and research before they do things that may or may not hurt others.

Great Discussion!

I think the best we can do, given the resistance we get from the big corporations is to work within the small fields we can legally work in. Example, I took my eCig to the bar last night and many of the curious were barraging me with questions and excitement about it. There was an opportunity to educate and be an ad man, as we are getting the type I am using into Nevada 7-11's next month. I also believe that a big Corp like 7-11 will go a long way in softening of the powers-that-be into at least taking a second look at their policies. With the presence of eCigs in 7-11 stores that means a greater segment of the population will soon be vaping and travel firms will be forced to re-evaluate their 'smoking/vaping' policies. Until then, friends, work where you can

 

[checkflag]

What about telling some naysayer that it is for your asthma and that it is
delivering medicine. Of course we know better, but do you think buffoon on
Amtrak would know the difference? Technically, your not lying but perhaps
stretching the truth a little.

I have found in life that people never question illnesses or the means
to fix them.

 

[zoiDman]

and no I don't miss that point at all....I just wish people would think before and research before they do things that may or may not hurt others. And I also agree that some respect is needed for nonvapers but not to the extent that we vapers are then forced into a situation where we are again inhaling second hand smoke which we have chosen to avoid by making this switch in the first place. (there are many places that will allow vaping but only in the smoking section)

Here in lies a problem.

Where are all the “Unbiased”, long term clinical reports on the effects of direct and indirect use of e-Cigs? How does an educated person or corporation make an decision when there are little facts to go by?

I believe that much thought does go into corporate decisions about whether or not to allow e-Cig use in a public or private area. The two largest concerns are Profits and Liability.

Profits is relatively easy comparison. Is there a negative downside to not allowing e-Cigs on Amtrak Trains / Stations. I would say that most people will not stop riding a train if they are told they can’t use e-Cigs on them. So profits aren’t going to be effected.

Liability: Yikes! What is the possibility that a passenger or Amtrak employee will sue Amtrak from some harm they incurred from an e-Cig? Even if the lawsuit is Frivolous, what will be cost to defend such a lawsuit? What if a study comes out with scientific evidence that e-Cig vapor can be considered harmful in second hand form? These are the types of questions that scares the hell out of policy makers. Better to just not open that can of worms.

You want these policy makers to do research. Great. Where do they go to get facts?

 

[HeatherC]

Look up the CASAAs web site....they have quite alot of info on there....also do a search for studies on the various chemicals in ecigs that concern you Also be aware that while yes nicotine is addictive...it is not much more damaging than caffeine (thats according to one of my personal docs I didn't research it much further) The research I did do on nicotine however revealed that it's being studied as possible treatment for several illnesses among them are parkinson's and alzheimer's disease. There are plenty of facts out there....all you have to do is type your question into a search engine.

 

[yvilla]

What do you base the statement that "Vapor is harmless" on?

Ecigarette mist harmless, inhaled or exhaled
http://www.healthnz.co.nz/RuyanCartridgeReport30-Oct-08.pdf
http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/reregistration/REDs/propylene_glycol_red.pdf
http://www.casaa.org/files/Study_TSNAs_in_NJOY_Vapor.pdf
http://www.casaa.org/files/CASAA_Legislative_Packet_Regarding_Indoor_Bans_Web.pdf

Want more?

How can you say that vapor is "wholly inoffensive" to All people?

Do you think Amtrak will ban all wearing of perfumes and colognes on its trains to satisfy me and the untold numbers of other passengers for whom it is offensive and irritating?

No, they won't, because there is no scientific basis to claim the "offensiveness" to me and others is serious or unavoidable enough to warrant imposing my feelings or perceptions about perfumes on everyone else. They would probably allow me to change my assigned seat, however.

Amtrak's policy regarding e-Cig use on Their trains neither needs to be "defensible" nor "rational".

Yes, it does. It is a common carrier, transporting literally millions of the public from place to place, and as such has a duty to implement rational policies.

It is your choice to ride Their trains under their policy if you choose to. If you disagree with their policy regarding e-Cigs, you can choose not to ride on them.

It is also my choice to keep using my ecig on the trains as I have been doing, in such a way that no one is bothered in the least, let alone is even aware that I'm doing so!

 

[BiohazardVideo]

Just sent my letter...

I'm writing in regards to the possible use of my personal vaporizer, commonly referred to as an "electronic cigarette" which is the method I chose to quit smoking.

I've read on a website that an inquiry had been made, which Barbara R
Amtrak Customer Service responded. Little information was sent to show it's non-harmful effects on anyone around the user and no one, even the FDA has found any harmful effects on the user. The following are links verifying the safety of the non-volatile vapor exhaled.

Ecigarette mist harmless, inhaled or exhaled
http://www.healthnz.co.nz/RuyanCartr...t30-Oct-08.pdf
http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/reregist...glycol_red.pdf
http://www.casaa.org/files/Study_TSN...NJOY_Vapor.pdf
http://www.casaa.org/files/CASAA_Leg...r_Bans_Web.pdf

I'm hoping to not have to be forced to inhale second hand smoke at stops where smoking is permitted if I am unable to use my device on the train. I quit smoking for the health of my family as well as my own, My children even commented that the vapor sometimes smells like cookies cooking, a far cry from the poison I had exhaled before, outside.

As a side note, "PG" is also a common ingredient in food preparation, asthma inhalers and hairspray. I generally use "VG" which is all natural vegetable based, food grade glycerine, which eliminates any of those concerns.

Pray for us...

 

[TheMiamiWay]

Amtraks response reminds me of the old saying, "It's easier to ask for forgiveness, than for permission".

 

[Skyway]

I personally think that once everyone stops calling them electronic cigarettes, things will start to get better. We need to split ourselves from our analog pasts and doing it on this site would be a good start. I personally do not use standard PV but pre-built mods like the V3 which does not look like a cigarette for a reason.

 

[johnny bobcat]

Does anybody really still use trains for transportation?!

 

[Eternityroad]

Does anybody really still use trains for transportation?!

Very much so. And now more often since the 'pat-down/security' issues at airports. Also many,many commuters use the trains for work/business along the Eastern corridor.

 

[Telynau]

I can understand Amtrak's policy. Amtrak runs through many states where vaping has been banned. The Conductors would have to know every states laws governing vaping, and be accountable for enforcing compliance. Since vaping is relatively new, and laws are in a state of flux, this may be why Amtrak policy is a flat "no"... at this point in time.

This reminds me of train travel and "dry" states. Club cars are closed and no alcohol served. Some states prohibit all alcohol; some are more lenient and allow beer & wine, no spirits. Some states have restrictions on hours and days for serving/purchase. Yes, Conductors have to know this, and keep abrest of any/all changes to state & local laws where their trains transit.

Any one remember when legal drinking age was 18 in some localities, and 21 in others? Conductors had to have an encyclopedic knowledge of when & where their passengers could imbibe. LOL. A bit of train travel trivia.