Dimitri Goes Off on Rant About Dishonest Liquid Vendors

[BigEgo]

As we all know, VaporShark recently tested all of the liquids they carry and many of them came back with very high levels of DA/AP. This caused a lot of outrage from vendors who have been making up conspiracy theories about the testing, etc.

Anyway, on his show last night, Dimitri went on a rant for over 30 minutes regarding this topic. It starts at and goes past 1:30:00.

I posted this to Reddit and it was down voted into oblivion literally within 5 minutes. So many vapers have their heads in the sand that it really makes me frustrated with the community. I really feel this issue, if not corrected, is going to be the downfall of the entire industry (yes, it's that serious).

 

[Sean Mack]

As we all know, VaporShark recently tested all of the liquids they carry and many of them came back with very high levels of DA/AP.

You know where that list is posted?

 

[BigEgo]

You know where that list is posted?

VaporShark E-Liquid Testing.pdf - Google Drive

 

[Cullin Kin]

Where is the video?

 

[BigEgo]

Where is the video?

It's on his radio show. I linked it in my OP.

And let me clarify that Dimitri was ranting against the companies who are making excuses for the high levels found (he is on Vaporshark's side). He claims he has asked these very companies before if their liquids have DA/AP and they told him "no, we test them and they're clean."

Liars.

 

[Jorge22]

I don't know...

I mean, I know the world can't be trusted but I don't know...

 

[Funk Dracula]

I don't trust any juice vendor, quite frankly. Been DIY for almost two years now, and I've narrowed that down to mostly un-flavored nicotine base, with a teeny tiny percentage of flavoring for subtle variety. I only use TFA flavorings that I know the test results of as well. Never mix it weaker than 24mg nicotine.

And it wasn't even diacetyl or acetyl propionyl that got me to never trust e-liquid vendors. The first time I saw e-liquid colored "Smurf Blue" with food coloring, I had to question it. The food coloring added, for no damn good reason, was motivation enough.

There are too many cooks in the kitchen.

Even now as it stands, it seems EVERY "vape-famous" youtube reviewer now has their very own line of "gourmet" e-liquid. Grimmgreen, Rip Trippers, Twisted420, Suck My Mod, Ruby Roo, all of them selling juice. I'm not implying that these people are untrustworthy, just saying... it's a thing.

What also irks me, is this trend of cloud chasing super low nic e-liquid, that per volume contains none of the nicotine that gets us to put a vape down, and all flavoring. People are burning through 15-30ml of juice a day, so they can fog up the room, and vape at a much more frequent rate without over nic'ing themselves into the jitters whilst tasting their delicious juice and creating weather systems. All this without realizing they are exposing their lungs to 10x the mystery chemicals that make up the flavoring. It's just the perfect storm for disaster when that e-liquid contains some flavoring chemical that is gonna mess you up. Make no mistake, it's NEVER BEEN the VG/PG/Nicotine that is bad, it's the flavoring. Harm reduction? Nope... not any more it would seem.

I'll stick to my high nic 24mg, and vape far less often, thank you. I'm after the nicotine, after all.

"You vape 24mg?? On an RDA?? You're insane!" - A typical vapor will smugly say to me, and then proceed to lung bust 12 insanely large pulls of 3mg juice that wreaks of a fine powdered donut stuffed with vanilla custard.

At some point, nicotine became the enemy for no good reason other than being a victim of high wattage vaping and cloud chasing/flavor chasing trends. It's just not cool to take 1-2 pulls, feel the nicotine buzz hit you strong on, and be satisfied and done with it for awhile anymore. Nope. Gotta lower that nicotine to nearly zero, so you chain vape the trendiest brand of e-liquid at unprecedented quantities. I was even responding in a thread a few days ago, where a poster confidently told me that any e-liquid over 12mg is of garbage quality, and any vendor that sells you that is untrustworthy, or something to that extent. Really? REALLY???? You sure that vendor isn't selling you 3mg, so you can chain vape it without getting the jitters, and so you have to vape such a large quantity of it, that you have to buy 3x the amount from said vendor?

There are so many would-be "gourmet" e-liquid vendors, it's just out of control. It's beyond the point of industry wide self-regulation. Like I said, just too many damn cooks in the kitchen, who don't frankly care about health, in the slightest, but rather the dollars. Big surprise!

Russ, the host of Click Bang, cold called a whole bunch of the guilty e-liquid manufacturers found on the Vapershark site, recorded the calls, and played them on his show. Some of these e-liquids tested in PPM numbers that we have NEVER seen before. As far high as 2,000PPM. Over 10x the amount of diacetyl or acetyl propionyl results that shook the community with the study that Dr Farsalinos put out a long while back. And people are vaping/conusming 10x the amount of this stuff with current low nic vaping trends.

The response from the guilty vendors caught with their pants down was no surprise:

-" Ummm.. we were unaware that it contained any diacetyl or acetyl propionyl."

OR

- "Ummm.. that was an old formula they tested. We changed that a month ago."

When asked why they changed it only a month ago, when the problem has been known about for years, the answer was inevitably:

- "Ummm.. well... ummm..."

One guy blatantly made up a make believe boss who had the answers, but who was conveniently unreachable at the moment, and who had a voice mail that couldn't be connected to because "the desk phone is broken."

Another good one is Suicide Bunny. Her answer is "Suicide Bunny contains no diacetyl." While that may be true, it contains an alarming amount of acetyl propionyl, which is exactly as harmful.

Liars indeed. Skirting around the truth, gettin' in on the e-liquid money train.

I really don't care anymore. So as long as unflavored nicotine solution remains accessible, I kind of hope the FDA puts the smackdown on this out of control mess. Sure, there are good vendors, but just like most things in a free market, a few bad apples can and will spoil the entire bunch. The damage is done. That's just how things go down, I'm afraid.

Too many cooks in the kitchen.

 

[Vapenstein]

Even now as it stands, it seems EVERY "vape-famous" youtube reviewer now has their very own line of "gourmet" e-liquid. Grimmgreen, Rip Trippers, Twisted420, Suck My Mod, Ruby Roo, all of them selling juice.

yeah I know, bunch of copycats

 

[kingdal]

Anyone know what the safe limit levels
for diacetyl and pentanedione are?

 

[Funk Dracula]

Anyone know what the safe limit levels
for diacetyl and pentanedione are?

Zero.

 

[Asbestos4004]

I don't trust any juice vendor, quite frankly. Been DIY for almost two years now, and I've narrowed that down to mostly un-flavored nicotine base, with a teeny tiny percentage of flavoring for subtle variety. I only use TFA flavorings that I know the test results of as well. Never mix it weaker than 24mg nicotine.

And it wasn't even diacetyl or acetyl propionyl that got me to never trust e-liquid vendors. The first time I saw e-liquid colored "Smurf Blue" with food coloring, I had to question it. The food coloring added, for no damn good reason, was motivation enough.

There are too many cooks in the kitchen.

Even now as it stands, it seems EVERY "vape-famous" youtube reviewer now has their very own line of "gourmet" e-liquid. Grimmgreen, Rip Trippers, Twisted420, Suck My Mod, Ruby Roo, all of them selling juice. I'm not implying that these people are untrustworthy, just saying... it's a thing.

What also irks me, is this trend of cloud chasing super low nic e-liquid, that per volume contains none of the nicotine that gets us to put a vape down, and all flavoring. People are burning through 15-30ml of juice a day, so they can fog up the room, and vape at a much more frequent rate without over nic'ing themselves into the jitters whilst tasting their delicious juice and creating weather systems. All this without realizing they are exposing their lungs to 10x the mystery chemicals that make up the flavoring. It's just the perfect storm for disaster when that e-liquid contains some flavoring chemical that is gonna mess you up. Make no mistake, it's NEVER BEEN the VG/PG/Nicotine that is bad, it's the flavoring. Harm reduction? Nope... not any more it would seem.

I'll stick to my high nic 24mg, and vape far less often, thank you. I'm after the nicotine, after all.

"You vape 24mg?? On an RDA?? You're insane!" - A typical vapor will smugly say to me, and then proceed to lung bust 12 insanely large pulls of 3mg juice that wreaks of a fine powdered donut stuffed with vanilla custard.

At some point, nicotine became the enemy for no good reason other than being a victim of high wattage vaping and cloud chasing/flavor chasing trends. It's just not cool to take 1-2 pulls, feel the nicotine buzz hit you strong on, and be satisfied and done with it for awhile anymore. Nope. Gotta lower that nicotine to nearly zero, so you chain vape the trendiest brand of e-liquid at unprecedented quantities. I was even responding in a thread a few days ago, where a poster confidently told me that any e-liquid over 12mg is of garbage quality, and any vendor that sells you that is untrustworthy, or something to that extent. Really? REALLY???? You sure that vendor isn't selling you 3mg, so you can chain vape it without getting the jitters, and so you have to vape such a large quantity of it, that you have to buy 3x the amount from said vendor?

There are so many would-be "gourmet" e-liquid vendors, it's just out of control. It's beyond the point of industry wide self-regulation. Like I said, just too many damn cooks in the kitchen, who don't frankly care about health, in the slightest, but rather the dollars. Big surprise!

Russ, the host of Click Bang, cold called a whole bunch of the guilty e-liquid manufacturers found on the Vapershark site, recorded the calls, and played them on his show. Some of these e-liquids tested in PPM numbers that we have NEVER seen before. As far high as 2,000PPM. Over 10x the amount of diacetyl or acetyl propionyl results that shook the community with the study that Dr Farsalinos put out a long while back. And people are vaping/conusming 10x the amount of this stuff with current low nic vaping trends.

The response from the guilty vendors caught with their pants down was no surprise:

-" Ummm.. we were unaware that it contained any diacetyl or acetyl propionyl."

OR

- "Ummm.. that was an old formula they tested. We changed that a month ago."

When asked why they changed it only a month ago, when the problem has been known about for years, the answer was inevitably:

- "Ummm.. well... ummm..."

One guy blatantly made up a make believe boss who had the answers, but who was conveniently unreachable at the moment, and who had a voice mail that couldn't be connected to because "the desk phone is broken."

Another good one is Suicide Bunny. Her answer is "Suicide Bunny contains no diacetyl." While that may be true, it contains an alarming amount of acetyl propionyl, which is exactly as harmful.

Liars indeed. Skirting around the truth, gettin' in on the e-liquid money train.

I really don't care anymore. So as long as unflavored nicotine solution remains accessible, I kind of hope the FDA puts the smackdown on this out of control mess. Sure, there are good vendors, but just like most things in a free market, a few bad apples can and will spoil the entire bunch. The damage is done. That's just how things go down, I'm afraid.

Too many cooks in the kitchen.

It just wouldn't be a good thread without some{ONE} {MODERATED} slamming some way of vaping that isn't identical to theirs. Good lord.

 

[kingdal]

I keep reading about bits and pieces of what Dr Farsalinos is supposed to have said. Finally found it. Here it is for anyone else who's been curious about this

NIOSH submits letter to the editor concerning our diacetyl study

 

[SleeZy]

really don't care anymore. So as long as unflavored nicotine solution remains accessible, I kind of hope the FDA puts the smackdown on this out of control mess. Sure, there are good vendors, but just like most things in a free market, a few bad apples can and will spoil the entire bunch. The damage is done. That's just how things go down, I'm afraid.

You don't care, yet you say the part i bolded?
And having FDA approved juice would more or less ruin every company except big tobacco, well done.

Free market is a good thing, as is our own free will to use what we see fit. Let those who subohm 30ml's a day do that. Those are a few of the extremes aswell.

Also everything is dangerous when overdoing it, such as drinking to much water to fast etc.

I don't wanna come of as rude but atm it more sounds like you're the one trying to ruin the others joy, just because you only vape flavorless "you don't care if FDA comes and ruins it" It's realy selfish statement tbh.

Edit: And no i'm not one of those extremes. I vape like 5-6mls a day.

 

[SleeZy]

Don't call me incompetent or dishonest, man.

I wasn't slamming anybodies style of vaping. I was stating rather logical conclusions, that I came to, with facts that are out plainly out there.

I was slamming the way some vendors are conducting themselves. And with good reason, those facts are true, and the vendors responses caught on tape. It's a hot mess.

[removed]


Have a day...

This i agree with however.
I just don't like how you bashed and endorse a FDA ban/restriction.
(as i mentioned in my post above, i know you didn't quote me, but still.)

 

[Funk Dracula]

You don't care, yet you say the part i bolded?
And having FDA approved juice would more or less ruin every company except big tobacco, well done.

Free market is a good thing, as is our own free will to use what we see fit. Let those who subohm 30ml's a day do that. Those are a few of the extremes aswell.

Also everything is dangerous when overdoing it, such as drinking to much water to fast etc.

I don't wanna come of as rude but atm it more sounds like you're the one trying to ruin the others joy, just because you only vape flavorless "you don't care if FDA comes and ruins it" It's realy selfish statement tbh.

Edit: And no i'm not one of those extremes. I vape like 5-6mls a day.

I never said vaping 30ml can't be enjoyable. I am implying that if you are doing it, with an e-liquid laced with 2,000PPM of yummy diacetyl, you're not really accomplishing the "harm reduction" you think you are, just because you're vaping.

I didn't say you need to vape the way I vape, I stated the way I vape and the reasons why.

I really don't care about the FDA anymore. I've done more work against vaping bans over the last few years, especially being a dual resident between California and Illinois. Call me a selfish sourpuss, it's basically true, but I'm just tired of it, especially seeing how ridiculously oversaturated the e-liquid market has become riddled with an overwhelming amount of people that frankly shouldn't be allowed to sell the stuff.

 

[bman1977]

I don't trust any juice vendor, quite frankly. Been DIY for almost two years now, and I've narrowed that down to mostly un-flavored nicotine base, with a teeny tiny percentage of flavoring for subtle variety. I only use TFA flavorings that I know the test results of as well. Never mix it weaker than 24mg nicotine.

And it wasn't even diacetyl or acetyl propionyl that got me to never trust e-liquid vendors. The first time I saw e-liquid colored "Smurf Blue" with food coloring, I had to question it. The food coloring added, for no damn good reason, was motivation enough.

There are too many cooks in the kitchen.

Even now as it stands, it seems EVERY "vape-famous" youtube reviewer now has their very own line of "gourmet" e-liquid. Grimmgreen, Rip Trippers, Twisted420, Suck My Mod, Ruby Roo, all of them selling juice. I'm not implying that these people are untrustworthy, just saying... it's a thing.

What also irks me, is this trend of cloud chasing super low nic e-liquid, that per volume contains none of the nicotine that gets us to put a vape down, and all flavoring. People are burning through 15-30ml of juice a day, so they can fog up the room, and vape at a much more frequent rate without over nic'ing themselves into the jitters whilst tasting their delicious juice and creating weather systems. All this without realizing they are exposing their lungs to 10x the mystery chemicals that make up the flavoring. It's just the perfect storm for disaster when that e-liquid contains some flavoring chemical that is gonna mess you up. Make no mistake, it's NEVER BEEN the VG/PG/Nicotine that is bad, it's the flavoring. Harm reduction? Nope... not any more it would seem.

I'll stick to my high nic 24mg, and vape far less often, thank you. I'm after the nicotine, after all.

"You vape 24mg?? On an RDA?? You're insane!" - A typical vapor will smugly say to me, and then proceed to lung bust 12 insanely large pulls of 3mg juice that wreaks of a fine powdered donut stuffed with vanilla custard.

At some point, nicotine became the enemy for no good reason other than being a victim of high wattage vaping and cloud chasing/flavor chasing trends. It's just not cool to take 1-2 pulls, feel the nicotine buzz hit you strong on, and be satisfied and done with it for awhile anymore. Nope. Gotta lower that nicotine to nearly zero, so you chain vape the trendiest brand of e-liquid at unprecedented quantities. I was even responding in a thread a few days ago, where a poster confidently told me that any e-liquid over 12mg is of garbage quality, and any vendor that sells you that is untrustworthy, or something to that extent. Really? REALLY???? You sure that vendor isn't selling you 3mg, so you can chain vape it without getting the jitters, and so you have to vape such a large quantity of it, that you have to buy 3x the amount from said vendor?

There are so many would-be "gourmet" e-liquid vendors, it's just out of control. It's beyond the point of industry wide self-regulation. Like I said, just too many damn cooks in the kitchen, who don't frankly care about health, in the slightest, but rather the dollars. Big surprise!

Russ, the host of Click Bang, cold called a whole bunch of the guilty e-liquid manufacturers found on the Vapershark site, recorded the calls, and played them on his show. Some of these e-liquids tested in PPM numbers that we have NEVER seen before. As far high as 2,000PPM. Over 10x the amount of diacetyl or acetyl propionyl results that shook the community with the study that Dr Farsalinos put out a long while back. And people are vaping/conusming 10x the amount of this stuff with current low nic vaping trends.

The response from the guilty vendors caught with their pants down was no surprise:

-" Ummm.. we were unaware that it contained any diacetyl or acetyl propionyl."

OR

- "Ummm.. that was an old formula they tested. We changed that a month ago."

When asked why they changed it only a month ago, when the problem has been known about for years, the answer was inevitably:

- "Ummm.. well... ummm..."

One guy blatantly made up a make believe boss who had the answers, but who was conveniently unreachable at the moment, and who had a voice mail that couldn't be connected to because "the desk phone is broken."

Another good one is Suicide Bunny. Her answer is "Suicide Bunny contains no diacetyl." While that may be true, it contains an alarming amount of acetyl propionyl, which is exactly as harmful.

Liars indeed. Skirting around the truth, gettin' in on the e-liquid money train.

I really don't care anymore. So as long as unflavored nicotine solution remains accessible, I kind of hope the FDA puts the smackdown on this out of control mess. Sure, there are good vendors, but just like most things in a free market, a few bad apples can and will spoil the entire bunch. The damage is done. That's just how things go down, I'm afraid.

Too many cooks in the kitchen.

Welcome to America. Its a free market, which means you can vape your unflavored nic base and I can vape my chocolate glazed donut filled with pineapple and coconut juice. If we lived in a nice boring society we'd all be vaping unflavored nic. Again welcome to America. land of the diverse.

Personally the reason I vape 3mg juice is because I plan to eventually give up vaping. That may be 1 or 2 or 3 years from now but I've gone from 12mg now down to 3mg over the course of 2 years. I do sub ohm and don't chain vape, I get my satisfaction now from clouds not from nic jitters. A 30 ml of juice can easily last me a week or more.

Try not to push everyone into one category, its very unbecoming and not very American like.

 

[Bunnykiller]

Anyone know what the safe limit levels
for diacetyl and pentanedione are?

ummm 0mg/ml

 

[Vapenstein]

Free market is a good thing, as is our own free will to use what we see fit.

Unfortunately we do not have a free market in the US, we have a market and a government that is heavily manipulated by the supply side. We need serious legislation with serious penalties to keep financial interests out of our government, and then follow that up with term limits to get all the corruption out of Washington. It is shocking what the United States has turned into in the space of about 40 years.

 

[SleeZy]

Unfortunately we do not have a free market in the US, we have a market and a government that is heavily manipulated by the supply side. We need serious legislation with serious penalties to keep financial interests out of our government, and then follow that up with term limits to get all the corruption out of Washington. It is shocking what the United States has turned into in the space of about 40 years.

Sweden ain't any better tbh, infact our gov is trying to mimmic US more and more.
However i think this is a world wide issue, except the UK as they seem to have changed their stance atleast on the vaping scene.
Also if EU get through how they want it, we'll be back to the stoneage of vaping. Cigalikes, tanks arent allowed to be bigger than 2ml etc.

 

[RebelGolfer72]

I don't trust any juice vendor, quite frankly. Been DIY for almost two years now, and I've narrowed that down to mostly un-flavored nicotine base, with a teeny tiny percentage of flavoring for subtle variety. I only use TFA flavorings that I know the test results of as well.

And it wasn't even diacetyl or acetyl propionyl that got me to never trust e-liquid vendors. The first time I saw e-liquid colored "Smurf Blue" with food coloring, I had to question it. The food coloring added, for no damn good reason, was motivation enough.

There are too many cooks in the kitchen.

Even now as it stands, it seems EVERY "vape-famous" youtube reviewer now has their very own line of "gourmet" e-liquid. Grimmgreen, Rip Trippers, Twisted420, Suck My Mod, Ruby Roo, all of them selling juice. I'm not implying that these people are untrustworthy, just saying... it's a thing.

1. Most of the juice vendors out there are using TFA flavorings, with the addition of 3 or 4 other companies. They are all using the same stuff....so if one is showing the "bad stuff" they all will be-- even VaporShark

2. Ironically, the only big YouTube reviewer who doesn't have his own juice line is the one whose website is called "taste your juice" lol

3. After attending the Pittsburgh VCC show, I tend to agree that the market is overwhelmed with juice vendors. You can go to the website and verify this, but you had 90% of the vendors there strictly selling juice, 5% were Vape shops, 3% selling hardware only, and 2% other (juice making supplies, credit card companies etc).

4. Not defending the companies that VS had tested, but I take their results with a grain of salt. Too coincidental that they have everyone tested, and they all are bad (which, going back to my first statement, is plausible), however, it's too coincidental that none of VS' flavors tested bad...oh, and it aligned perfectly with the release of their new "premium line" of juice.

5. I want to see independent testing, (and not by the govt!), of not the juice mfrs (as there are too many), but of the flavoring companies (TFA, FlavourArt, FlavorWest, Capella). If these companies make the change first, then he juice mfrs will not have the tools to make juice that is potentially harmful.

6. No conspiracy theories here, but government regulation is not the answer. They are bought and sold by the lobbying groups. I'm sorry, the same people who said that Chantix is a good product, or,that it's ok to spray food products with Roundup, and who think that all vaping = smoking should be the ones in charge of regulating the juice.

7. There needs to be a private group who has the juices (and ingredients tested)-- an organization funded by a fixed membership fee (all juice companies pay the same amount for membership, or pay a fixed rate per juice flavor that they have tested)... And if it passes, it gets the seal/mark of this organization that they put on their bottle (think of how toothpaste use to have the "Ada approved" seal, or how kosher foods have the kosher mark....or how certified organic foods have to be certified).