Dimitri Goes Off on Rant About Dishonest Liquid Vendors

[Share2Care]

Agreed. Also btw canned beans are sugar bombs (even in sweden)
If you wanna eat the beans for what it is, you'd be better of buying real beans and cook them yourself.

As far as the sugar craze goes sweden isn't as bad as america, but almost. Let's just say the most "popular" products usualy contain sugar for no good reason.
And not to speak of all additives.. (also most of em are disguised such as E-"insert number here" so say E-6432 etc. Not sure if you guys are having the same system. But it's used to disguise ingredients "we don't wanna see" kinda

I have to say outright that you do not understand E numbers and what they truly are. E...What is E? EP European Pharmacopoeia - This is the defacto standards. Here is an E number for you...E300....Ascorbic Acid (Also known as Vitamin C)....Naturally occurring in most fruits and vegetables to a lesser extent. Here is another E number...E170 which is Calcium Carbonate also know as chalk. What about E330? Citric Acid..What you get when you squeeze say a lemon. Now without these E numbers in our lives, we die.

Now when a chemical either naturaly derived or synthetically is given an E number it MUST conform to that specification. No more, no less. Protection, for me, for my girls, for you.

Now, E numbers cover up absolutely nothing. Please read the previous sentence. They in fact are the most open way in which you can educate yourself before putting a post out to which even if 1 person was to believe, well, jeeze, there is so much bull.... flying around it is becoming hard starting to see clarity, but with E numbers you do. It states EXACTLY what it is chemically. How is it hiding anything? It is what is says on the tin.

Now, there are a lot of E numbers that over the decades have been either banned or just not allowed into the food chain (yes, I am within the food chain with work, so I know what I am saying is to be the truth). Unfortunately, time is a killer with any new chemical compounds. 20 years from now |Vitamin C maybe even bad for you....Or not.

I know it should not be a case of people having to educate themselves about what is and is not tolerable, to them, but I am afraid it is. The US system compared to the European one truly is horrific. US people are like walking Guinea Pigs in terms of what you eat, and what chemical compounds are in there. You have GRAS (Generally Recognised as Safe) which is an open gate for someone to do pretty much what they like, just below hospitalising you. You then have the Foods & Drug Administration. Now these people do know a little more.

It was recently discussed that the European Pharmacopoeia should match the US Pharmacopoeia. This was instigated by the US as they looked at how much HIGHER their control and limitation of use of chemicals would prove too costly. Yep, you in the US..Your lives are way to costly. We thank goodness laughed the proposal back over the pond. We like to be CLEAR with our E numbers. Like them, do not like them, either way you are informed and no hiding. Now I hope people are informed, and have been educated a little before posting about a subject they should go onto Wikipedia about BEFORE posting, please.

Back on point - I have used Cloud9Vaping many times and is one of my preferred resellers. Great company. I don my cap to them as it took some serious decision making to go public, but they did let 5 Pawns know a few months back and they received no communication. I wonder why.

It really is completely unacceptable to have these compounds knocking around. I do wonder how someone looking in on ex smokers who have been happily for years getting 4,500+ chemical compounds most of which are disgraceful and here we are getting quite upset about one or two compounds knocking around. I am in no way agreeing to having these compounds present, just an interesting perspective.

Hope I have not angered anyone, maybe the original poster but please go educate yourself as I hope I have helped people understanding what an E number and they are here for our safety.

The E-juice companies are really doing a damn fine job of needing regulation and with regulation comes control. So, vaping away in a crowded place on e-liquid...I wonder how many ppm (Parts Per Million) other non smokers are picking up. Still, got to be better than 4,500....

Sigh.

 

[zoiDman]

Personally, I believe in the free market system. But it is only valid when all of the information is available. I am presently contacting all of the e-commerce vape companies I deal with who sell 5 pawns, providing links, and asking them to review the information available. I am also asking them how committed they are to only selling products from REPUTABLE companies who provide SAFE products and what they intend to do regarding Five Pawns.

I will be adjusting my list of preferred suppliers based on the responses I get.​

Like I said Earlier. This is the Good that can come out of a Bad Situation.

People asking their Retailers for More Information. And Retailers Steeping Up and Testing the e-Liquids they sell. So they can Know what Exactly is in the Bottles they send their Customers Every Day.

 

[schismz]

The vilification isn't due to them having DA or AP in their juice. It's due to them hiding their own test results for the better part of a year and LYING about it when asked by customers. That's unacceptable.

This. That's my problem with them. My secondary problem of course is the fact that one of their products has been in my daily rotation for a while which makes it much more personal and less of an abstract concept.

To distill all the noise down to the core issue: the problem I have with 5 pawns is not that their juice contains DA or AP, it's the fact that they're lying weasels. Their sleazy company are the very last group of people who should be representing the vaping industry to anybody.

 

[Rossum]

When Five Pawns puts their Label on a Bottle of e-Liquid, they have a Responsibility to Know Exactly what is Inside that Bottle.

As does Anyone Else who Manufactures an e-Liquid.

Every component in every flavoring they concentrate they use?

Down to what level? 1 ppm? 1 ppb?

 

[puddinman]

I wouldn't put it on the retailers; it should be squarely on the manufacturers. They are the ones creating and labeling the product. I'm currently drafting a letter that I plan to send to the juice companies I currently like or may want to try...I'll post it here for some feedback before I do.

 

[beckdg]

Looking at the huge numbers for obesity, heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes and pre-diabetes........yes, welcome to America.

If it weren't for proper food labelling, I'd probably have those health problems myself.

(I had to dump 2 cans of beans outside in the woods yesterday as the first ingredient was sugar. Why do i need sugar in my beans? I eat beans for the fiber and protein and if I wanted sugar I would eat some Twinkies and donuts instead.)

In order to avoid the diseases of lifestyle that Big Food has foisted on us, a consumer needs to be able to know what is in the product they are eating.

Knowing what is in the product I am vaping seems equally important-----------

By the way, the free market corporations aren't paying the health costs of those who Big Food has tricked. No, unfortunately, by the time most people develop these illnesses, they are on medicare, and we are having to pay for it while Big Food rakes in $$$ from sales.

Ummm...

Put some on your tongue.

Beens aren't sweet. Neither is meet. If your BBQ is sweet, (even slightly) there's TONS of sugar on it.

This almost complete reliance on the industry that shouldn't exist is what gives them the power to feed you whatever they want.

Aspertame leads to diabetes and cancer also. Labels where it replaces sugar often read "sugar free".

And since it takes a lot less volume for the same effect, it won't be the first ingredient on any label.

Tapatyped

 

[zoiDman]

Every component in every flavoring they concentrate they use?

Down to what level? 1 ppm? 1 ppb?

Every Component they put into a Bottle.

5ppm

---

What would be Professional approach would be if Every Suppliers of Raw Stock Ingredients would Supply Batch Testing results on shipments to Manufactures. So that when Five Pawns (or Any Other Manufacture) does their Testing, it is Both Independent and Secondary Verification.

 

[zoiDman]

I wouldn't put it on the retailers; it should be squarely on the manufacturers. They are the ones creating and labeling the product. I'm currently drafting a letter that I plan to send to the juice companies I currently like or may want to try...I'll post it here for some feedback before I do.

Good Deal on drafting a Letter and Taking a Proactive Role

 

[Mazinny]

Every Component they put into a Bottle.

5ppm

---

What would be Professional approach would be if Every Suppliers of Raw Stock Ingredients would Supply Batch Testing results on shipments to Manufactures. So that when Five Pawns (or Any Other Manufacture) does their Testing, it is Both Independent and Secondary Verification.

Why would they do that though. They provide raw ingredients for the food industry, In fact the vast majority refuse to sell to the compounders that cater to our industry precisely for liability/insurance reasons. These are the top ten flavoring manufacturers in the world :
Flavor & Fragrance Industry - Top 10

Has anyone in this industry even heard of them ? The risk of associating with our industry is too big for them.

 

[K_Tech]

I wouldn't put it on the retailers; it should be squarely on the manufacturers. They are the ones creating and labeling the product. I'm currently drafting a letter that I plan to send to the juice companies I currently like or may want to try...I'll post it here for some feedback before I do.

I would like to see it go even higher up the chain to the manufacturers of the flavors, PG, VG, and nic.

Here's my take on it. I've been involved in quality control from assembly to inspection for years.

If I am putting together a widget and my specs call for Buna-N o-rings with a 70 durometer, that's what I will order from the supplier. I don't have the facilities, time, funds, or manpower to test each and every o-ring for compliance, I have to be able to rely on the manufacturer to provide me with what I ask for. The same with bolts, nuts, welding rod, etc..

One batch at the manufacturer level could be split up to dozens of e-liquid producers. Testing at the source is simpler and more efficient.

 

[SleeZy]

I have to say outright that you do not understand E numbers and what they truly are. E...What is E? EP European Pharmacopoeia - This is the defacto standards. Here is an E number for you...E300....Ascorbic Acid (Also known as Vitamin C)....Naturally occurring in most fruits and vegetables to a lesser extent. Here is another E number...E170 which is Calcium Carbonate also know as chalk. What about E330? Citric Acid..What you get when you squeeze say a lemon. Now without these E numbers in our lives, we die.

Now when a chemical either naturaly derived or synthetically is given an E number it MUST conform to that specification. No more, no less. Protection, for me, for my girls, for you.

Now, E numbers cover up absolutely nothing. Please read the previous sentence. They in fact are the most open way in which you can educate yourself before putting a post out to which even if 1 person was to believe, well, jeeze, there is so much bull.... flying around it is becoming hard starting to see clarity, but with E numbers you do. It states EXACTLY what it is chemically. How is it hiding anything? It is what is says on the tin.

Now, there are a lot of E numbers that over the decades have been either banned or just not allowed into the food chain (yes, I am within the food chain with work, so I know what I am saying is to be the truth). Unfortunately, time is a killer with any new chemical compounds. 20 years from now |Vitamin C maybe even bad for you....Or not.

I know it should not be a case of people having to educate themselves about what is and is not tolerable, to them, but I am afraid it is. The US system compared to the European one truly is horrific. US people are like walking Guinea Pigs in terms of what you eat, and what chemical compounds are in there. You have GRAS (Generally Recognised as Safe) which is an open gate for someone to do pretty much what they like, just below hospitalising you. You then have the Foods & Drug Administration. Now these people do know a little more.

It was recently discussed that the European Pharmacopoeia should match the US Pharmacopoeia. This was instigated by the US as they looked at how much HIGHER their control and limitation of use of chemicals would prove too costly. Yep, you in the US..Your lives are way to costly. We thank goodness laughed the proposal back over the pond. We like to be CLEAR with our E numbers. Like them, do not like them, either way you are informed and no hiding. Now I hope people are informed, and have been educated a little before posting about a subject they should go onto Wikipedia about BEFORE posting, please.

Back on point - I have used Cloud9Vaping many times and is one of my preferred resellers. Great company. I don my cap to them as it took some serious decision making to go public, but they did let 5 Pawns know a few months back and they received no communication. I wonder why.

It really is completely unacceptable to have these compounds knocking around. I do wonder how someone looking in on ex smokers who have been happily for years getting 4,500+ chemical compounds most of which are disgraceful and here we are getting quite upset about one or two compounds knocking around. I am in no way agreeing to having these compounds present, just an interesting perspective.

Hope I have not angered anyone, maybe the original poster but please go educate yourself as I hope I have helped people understanding what an E number and they are here for our safety.

The E-Juice companies are really doing a damn fine job of needing regulation and with regulation comes control. So, vaping away in a crowded place on E-Liquid...I wonder how many ppm (Parts Per Million) other non smokers are picking up. Still, got to be better than 4,500....

Sigh.

I do know all this, and i also know that atleast in sweden it's being taken advantage of. If our FDA in sweden deems something unsafe due x compound. They will just add or edit the compound abit and woila it went accepted due some loophole. I got to learn this in my chef school .And most food doesn't need any E-numbers included to them.
Might be diffrent in the UK. Also some E-numbers are quite nasty:

E904 - Natural polymer derived from certain species of lice from India. Insects get trapped in the resin. Mostly used to dye candy.

 

[Mazinny]

I would like to see it go even higher up the chain to the manufacturers of the flavors, PG, VG, and nic.

Here's my take on it. I've been involved in quality control from assembly to inspection for years.

If I am putting together a widget and my specs call for Buna-N o-rings with a 70 durometer, that's what I will order from the supplier. I don't have the facilities, time, funds, or manpower to test each and every o-ring for compliance, I have to be able to rely on the manufacturer to provide me with what I ask for. The same with bolts, nuts, welding rod, etc..

One batch at the manufacturer level could be split up to dozens of e-liquid producers. Testing at the source is simpler and more efficient.

The problem is we don't have a supply chain that caters to our needs. The root manufacturers cater to the food industry.

 

[K_Tech]

The problem is we don't have a supply chain that caters to our needs. The root manufacturers cater to the food industry.

Oh, I agree, it's just what I'd like to see happen.

 

[zoiDman]

Why would they do that though. They provide raw ingredients for the food industry, In fact the vast majority refuse to sell to the compounders that cater to our industry precisely for liability/insurance reasons. These are the top ten flavoring manufacturers in the world :
Flavor & Fragrance Industry - Top 10

Has anyone in this industry even heard of them ? The risk of associating with our industry is too big for them.

Perhaps a Distinction should be made, and Perspective drawn between what is Food Industry and the e-Cigarette Market.

Is there a Difference between someone Eating 2 Blueberry Muffins a couple times a Month, and someone who Inhales Blueberry Flavoring every Waking Hour of the Day? 7 Days a Week. 365.

I would think that if Someone was Selling Something that is Meant to go Directly into an Individuals Lungs, on a Habitual Basis, that they would want to Know that what Chemical Compounds were involved.

I don't see that it would be all that Difficult to Request a Certification of Guaranteed Analysis from a Flavoring supplier. But you are Correct, every Flavoring Supplier might not provide one.

 

[zoiDman]

I would like to see it go even higher up the chain to the manufacturers of the flavors, PG, VG, and nic.

Here's my take on it. I've been involved in quality control from assembly to inspection for years.

If I am putting together a widget and my specs call for Buna-N o-rings with a 70 durometer, that's what I will order from the supplier. I don't have the facilities, time, funds, or manpower to test each and every o-ring for compliance, I have to be able to rely on the manufacturer to provide me with what I ask for. The same with bolts, nuts, welding rod, etc..

One batch at the manufacturer level could be split up to dozens of e-liquid producers. Testing at the source is simpler and more efficient.

Some Industries rely on Intermediaries between the OEM and the Manufactures to do Testing.

If I need a piece of 7075-T6511, I could buy it directly from Alcoa which would include Certs on the Material. But If I am Small Company, I might not be Able to meet the Buying Requirements or T's & C's of buying Directly from Alcoa.

So I might chose to but from a Material House who can provide their own Certs that the Material they are selling is 7075-T6511. No matter if their sources.

When all the Talk of Diacetyl started to Surface, I wondered if something like this Approach would work? One Company buying flavors Directly from the Flavoring OEM's and the doing Inside and Independent Testing. Then Selling them to e-Liquid Manufactures.

I still believe that Retailers need to do some Level of Testing. But at Least there would be a Check in Place between what the Food Flavoring Companies are making, and what a Vaper puts in their Lungs

 

[gin828]

Flavor companies aren't going to cater to an unregulated industry. Some will do what they can as far as testing goes to sell flavoring and some will not. I dont think any of the major players in flavoring industry are going jump right into e-liquid flavorings without some type or regulation to cover their butts

 

[Rossum]

Every Component they put into a Bottle.

5ppm

I wonder what such a test would cost? I seem to recall that some commercially available flavors have hundreds of components...

 

[gin828]

Testing is no doubt going to be the next big issue to come from this debacle. I give it a month or so and the forums will explode with all kinds of testing and whatnots. I wonder how many fly-by-night outfits are going to offer juice testing?

 

[DC2]

I had planned to start a "co-op" of sorts to submit Five Pawns liquids to independent testing.
I've even written up (but have not yet posted) a new thread regarding this.

I've got it all saved to Microsoft Word on my desktop.


I refer you to this post for where the idea came from...
Dimitri Goes Off on Rant About Dishonest Liquid Vendors | Page 17 | E-Cigarette Forum

Given recent developments since Monday, I'm not sure there is any point in doing so.

I've also, as noted previously, talked to Nude Nicotine about independent testing by the average vaper.

I am still waiting to comment on that, and I refer you to this post...
Dimitri Goes Off on Rant About Dishonest Liquid Vendors | Page 24 | E-Cigarette Forum

Tomorrow I will post about what Nude Nicotine told me.
But they have indicated they would like to make their own post here on this thread.

I will continue to wait to give them that opportunity, until tomorrow.
If they do not post, then it will be my interpretation of what they said to me.

I'd rather they post instead of leaving it to me.
But it will be what it will be.
:shrug:

 

[Share2Care]

Being a chef means you deal predominantly in World of fresh produce. I deal in a World of clynical analytical analysis and fresh produce. Very different.

Sweden is part of the Europe, from my last check on politics no? I certainly did not need a VISA the last 10 times visiting.

If you are going to counter my argument by putting out a bad E-Number, I already addressed that part by saying, several times...THERE ARE BAD E NUMBERS. And it is a good job to as there are many that should not be used. I deal in a World supplying into every single retailer in the UK and many, many abroad. I see a carrot, I can tell you what type, areas typically grown and also carotene, which is also an E number...

You may just see a carrot. E numbers are there for a good reason. Any person that labels them otherwise does not understand what they are. Please read up on Wikipedia or I have about 20 Kg worth of books I can lend you. Either way, I take your point.

My point is a point, is based on fact. Why fact, there are a chemical compound and E numbers are added to 90% of food, beverages, sweets on the market, especially when it comes to ready meals and sweets. So I know provenance, I know chemical identity as this is distracting from the point.

We had a time where there were no blue Smarties due to the fact they were awaiting an approval of a natural alternative, which still has all of its extraction methods in play.

What we eat and drink should not become blurred with what we inhale. I was just hoping to address a few kinks. The US on the other hand, wow, people are like mobile experiments. Disgusting that it is allowed and outrageous, but people seem to be doing it never the less. Educate people and remember to smile

Thanks for your post though my friend.