Dimitri Goes Off on Rant About Dishonest Liquid Vendors

[Lessifer]

I think one thing that people should Consider when thing about Unknown Risks in Flavorings, is that when the Microscope came down on Microwave Popcorn workers with lung Problems, that DA and AP were Not the Only Chemicals that were Scrutinized.

The Entire Flavoring Industry came into Question.

I'm not saying that because Problems were Not Found with Other Flavors that problems Can Not Exist. Long Term Effects are hard to Predict in the Short Term.

But I do Feel that if there was something Glaring, like what was seen with DA and AP, that people like Dr. Hobbs would have a good Chance of catching a Statistically Significant correlation between some of the Non DA/AP flavorings.

According to this Safety and Health Information Bulletins | Occupational Exposure to Flavoring Substances: Health Effects and Hazard Control there are 34 "high priority" flavorings that could pose respiratory issues, with an additional 49 "lower priority" flavorings.

 

[Racehorse]

I believe if a Retailer is Not Going to Stop Selling e-liquids that contain more than 100ppm of either DA or AP or a Combined Level of DA and AP, that they have an Obligation to the Consumer to Post that an e-liquid contains DA/AP and at what Levels.

In a nutshell, this is all I ever wanted, and pretty much everybody in the Diketone Free vendors topic ever wanted.

Vapers who wish to vape "as safely as possible" only wanted information to be able to make informed decisions, so they can continue to Vape and Shop. (and while we don't know about other chemicals we do have an inkling that DAP-containing eliquids do present an avoidable risk)

 

[caramel]

I think one thing that people should Consider when thing about Unknown Risks in Flavorings, is that when the Microscope came down on Microwave Popcorn workers with lung Problems, that DA and AP were Not the Only Chemicals that were Scrutinized.

The Entire Flavoring Industry came into Question.

I'm not saying that because Problems were Not Found with Other Flavors that problems Can Not Exist. Long Term Effects are hard to Predict in the Short Term.

But I do Feel that if there was something Glaring, like what was seen with DA and AP, that people like Dr. Hobbs would have a good Chance of catching a Statistically Significant correlation between some of the Non DA/AP flavorings.

Problem is that from an antzy perspective that we don't need and should be prevented to ingest/inhale/inject anything but clean, clear, unadultered, traditional, time tested natural foods, there's nothing you can eat these days. The air ain't clean, neither is the water, the crops are GMO, the meat is tainted, and our diet is completely unbalanced. There's nothing left. We should just starve.

 

[Lessifer]

In a nutshell, this is all I ever wanted, and pretty much everybody in the Diketone Free vendors topic ever wanted.

Vapers who wish to vape "as safely as possible" only wanted information to be able to make informed decisions, so they can continue to Vape and Shop. (and while we don't know about other chemicals we do have an inkling that DAP-containing eliquids do present an avoidable risk)

It's not that I don't agree with you, but I'm not sure what happened there. That is NOT my quote.

 

[Mazinny]

It's not that I don't agree with you, but I'm not sure what happened there. That is NOT my quote.

Lol, i swear i was going back page after page trying to find that quote from you !

 

[BigEgo]

Robino pointed to that blog in the "other" 5p thread. It is EXCELLENT. The most balanced, objective and thorough thing I have yet read on the subject.

I can certainly understand why someone who really likes the flavorings that contain DA/AP are willing to risk it on the (likely?) chance it is still safe due to the larger size of aerosol vs. smoke not being absorbed in the lungs.

I don't know if that's true. At the FDA conference they had someone present a talk about their own research in the lab. They found that e-cig aerosol is a bit smaller (in particle size) than the aerosol of cigarettes. Cigarette smoke is mostly sub micron while e-cig aerosol had more nano sized particles.

Source: This talk presented to the FDA

 

[Lessifer]

Lol, i swear i was going back page after page trying to find that quote from you !

If I had to guess, by the capitalization, that's a zoidman quote.

 

[AndriaD]

If I had to guess, by the capitalization, that's a zoidman quote.

BINGO! Nobody capitalizes randomly the way he does. At least, not since Samuel Johnson (18th century!).

Andria

 

[LouisLeBeau]

I don't know if that's true. At the FDA conference they had someone present a talk about their own research in the lab. They found that e-cig aerosol is a bit smaller (in particle size) than the aerosol of cigarettes. Cigarette smoke is mostly sub micron while e-cig aerosol had more nano sized particles.

Source: This talk presented to the FDA

I don't know that it's true either, but if it's the branch they want to swing on, I'm OK with it. I'll think about climbing the tree AFTER I know those branches are safe.

 

[Racehorse]

Perhaps I assumed too much that they would be less likely to be "plugged in"

No apologies necessary.

I don't think it has anything to do with age, though. Gadget techy people will always be gadget techy people, whether they are 20 or 80.

It is easy to forget that many of us "over 60" folks were using computers and the internet before a lot of young folks here were even born. In vaping, VV Twist was a game-changer, same way the IBM PC with a GUI and a mouse was for us when microsoft came out with "windows" in 1985 .... seemed a huge step up from my 8088 running MS-DOS.

Emerging technologies seem to have a lot in common......vaping and computers, etc. Certain people really get into it and others just do not.

 

[AndriaD]

No apologies necessary.

I don't think it has anything to do with age, though. Gadget techy people will always be gadget techy people, whether they are 20 or 80.

It is easy to forget that many of us "over 60" folks were using computers and the internet before a lot of young folks here were even born. In vaping, VV Twist was a game-changer, same way the IBM PC with a GUI and a mouse was for us when microsoft came out with "windows" in 1985 .... seemed a huge step up from my 8088 running MS-DOS.

Emerging technologies seem to have a lot in common......vaping and computers, etc. Certain people really get into it and others just do not.

Excellent post! One thing I love about this forum is that a lot of us diehard (ex-)smokers aren't spring chickens anymore -- it's hard to smoke for 30 or 40 yrs and not also AGE 30 or 40 yrs while you're at it! But on the internet, there are so many young folks who seem flabbergasted to discover a PC geek who's in her 50's -- but I was 28 when I started, in 1989 with my Tandy 1000!

I don't think it's a coincidence that the vapers here at ECF are so gung-ho; many of us already loved hi-tech gadgets, and as hi-tech gadgets go, e-cigs have surely induced more gratitude than probably any others -- even people who love their smart phones are regularly annoyed by them -- but as annoying as e-cigs can sometimes be, they've done for many of us what could never be done before -- separate us from our cigarettes without great suffering and gnashing of teeth.

Andria

 

[Racehorse]

Some issues should be discussed on their own merits, We can't look at issues solely from their the view point of possible effects on deeming regulation.

That is the purpose of real science, as opposed to science with an agenda.

If we are NOT going to be like the ANTZ, then we can't be the sort of people who pursue knowledge with an agenda. If we are then we are no better than they are.

I mean, we already went thru this with nuclear fusion. You don't stop exploration because there may be ways to use it in a bad way, or that "enemies" may get hold of the information.

Science is brave like that.

the purpose of all scientific inquiry should be to advance knowledge.....that is how humanity moved on from living in caves....

 

[Racehorse]

I was 28 when I started, in 1989 with my Tandy 1000!

Yeah, and you probably ordered stuff as a kit and had to put it together yourself practically LOL

 

[Rossum]

BINGO! Nobody capitalizes randomly the way he does. At least, not since Samuel Johnson (18th century!).

Andria

It's Not random.

 

[AndriaD]

Yeah, and you probably ordered stuff a kit and had to put it together yourself practically LOL

Not at all... actually it was part of the cost of the tuition for a small local biz school I attended -- learning about emerging computer technologies, and having a PC of one's own with which to study it further. And right after that, I had a job at the Radio Shack Computer Center it came from -- I sucked at sales, but man, I could make those PCs sing!

Of course studying stuff like that was a lot harder and more costly then -- you had to actually buy books, and computer books were very costly -- I still have my (now coverless) DOS Power Tools, which cost about $60 -- a lot more money in 1989 than it is now.

Andria

 

[WattWick]

Emerging technologies seem to have a lot in common......vaping and computers, etc. Certain people really get into it and others just do not.

I think it's not so much about age as about something Robert M. Pirsig touches upon in his Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance; classical vs romantic perspectives. Some people want to simply push a button. Others want to know how the clicks and whirrs happen when they do so. Nothing wrong with either. Different priorities is all.

 

[Lessifer]

I don't know if that's true. At the FDA conference they had someone present a talk about their own research in the lab. They found that e-cig aerosol is a bit smaller (in particle size) than the aerosol of cigarettes. Cigarette smoke is mostly sub micron while e-cig aerosol had more nano sized particles.

Source: This talk presented to the FDA

Do you, or anyone, have that first graph slide available? I was trying to understand what she was saying, but she's not the best speaker. If I heard correctly, the nanoparticles are absorbed quickly in the Head area, is that right?

ETA: quick googling and perusing available literature also seems to suggest that hygroscopic compounds tend to gain mass/size when in the presence of water, so much so that dry measurements are somewhat useless. But I'm not a scientist, with a multimillion dollar grant from the FDA to make vaping look bad.

 

[Racehorse]

I think it's not so much about age as about something Robert M. Pirsig touches upon in his Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance; classical vs romantic perspectives. Some people want to simply push a button. Others want to know how the clicks and whirrs happen when they do so. Nothing wrong with either. Different priorities is all.

LOVE that you brought up that book. Should be required reading for any entrepreneur who has a "soul" LOL. (how to actually CARE about what you're doing).

You know that book was rejected by over 100+ publishers ..... before it became a best seller for the ages.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Not at all... actually it was part of the cost of the tuition for a small local biz school I attended -- learning about emerging computer technologies, and having a PC of one's own with which to study it further. And right after that, I had a job at the Radio Shack Computer Center it came from -- I sucked at sales, but man, I could make those PCs sing!

Of course studying stuff like that was a lot harder and more costly then -- you had to actually buy books, and computer books were very costly -- I still have my (now coverless) DOS Power Tools, which cost about $60 -- a lot more money in 1989 than it is now.

Andria

OHH those Dandy computers

but among many TRS was pronounced trash

 

[Robert Cromwell]

In the Space Quest game the space janitor had to go to Radio Shock and buy a Dandy Computer to solve a problem....