Doubts over the safety of NET E-liquids

Discussion in 'General E-Liquid Discussion' started by fabricator4, Oct 17, 2013.

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  1. fabricator4

    fabricator4 Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Dr Farsalinos' latest study again gives the green light on the safety of vaping as expected, however it tested a range of different flavours this time. One of these was a tobacco extract from House of Liquid (El Toro cigarello) that was found to be Cytotoxic. It's early days yet by it might have implications for all NET flavourings. House of Liquid claim to have their product tested for safety, however what they were testing for and the component that caused a negative result on the cytotoxicological (yep, I think I made that word up) test might be two different things. It could be that there's a component in NETs that is currently not known to cause a problem but which we should be testing for.


    Evaluation of the cytotoxic potential of e-cigarette vapor on cultured cardiac cells: a new study


    It sounds like bad news for NET vapers but to put it in perspective here: vaping NETs is still far, far safer than smoking cigarettes.
     
  2. DebbieF

    DebbieF Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    I read most of the study (time to go to work!). Very interesting! My takeaways ... all of the NETs that showed cytotoxicity were from the same manufacturer. Other manufacturers who claimed to use some extracted tobaccos did not exhibit the same cytotoxicity. And the researchers believe the cytoxic NETs could be caused by cured tobaccos and/or pesticides that resided on the tobacco leaves. Clearly more studies need to be done to follow up, but this one appears to be sound and I liked how they compared everything against the "control" of cigarettes to see whether the e-liquids were more harmful than cigarettes (none of them were).
     
  3. RT88

    RT88 Super Member ECF Veteran

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    my takeaway message: there are 10^15 molecules of oxidative free radicals per PUFF of a cigarette. i didnt see where they measure the ecig vape for that but it must be magnitudes less as its not burned.

    flavor additives are the suspects for main effects. makes USDA kosher organic look better doesnt it

    then again carbon monoxide and diesel exhaust are much worse than ecig vape for two diff reasons but we are breathing that in the city and in parking lots and traffic
     
  4. jefsview

    jefsview Vaping Master ECF Veteran

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    I'm not worried by it, nor bothered from the study.

    NETs are still safer than analogs, and far better tasting.
     
  5. Ipster

    Ipster Super Member ECF Veteran

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    Thanks for sharing.
     
  6. HeadInClouds

    HeadInClouds Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    NET? Is that 'naturally extracted tobacco' or what?
    I'm not familiar with House of Liquid. Are they the only producer?
     
  7. snork

    snork Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Sometimes it's nice to have common sense vindicated by science.
     
  8. Jerms

    Jerms Vaping Master ECF Veteran

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    Yep, NET is for naturally extracted tobacco, or natural/extracted tobacco. There are many ways to extract flavor from tobacco, but the simplest and most common is a simple maceration. That's basically soaking tobacco in pg and/or vg to extract the flavor of the tobacco. Heat can be used to speed up the process. This is then filtered and the end result is a flavoring extract that can be used to make vape juice.

    House of Liquids is a UK vendor that has a line of NET. There are dozens of NET vendors in the US.
     
  9. firephly

    firephly Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    So I guess maybe the answer then is to find a NET organic version, is there a supplier who has that?
     
  10. Gerick

    Gerick Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    What I would like to know where do these NET suppliers get their tobacco leaves and
    if they were treated with pesticides.
     
  11. RT88

    RT88 Super Member ECF Veteran

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    ah yes, what are the typical pesticide practices for tobacco? i thought it was pretty lethal to insects except... the boll weevil

    someone google frequency application and ppm or ppb of pesticides found on harvested tobacco leaves, i'm on my break
     
  12. Gerick

    Gerick Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    I found this from 2003

    http://www.gao.gov/atext/d03485.txt

    Here's a tidbit .. There's more if you go to the link.

    "While EPA regulates the specific pesticides that may be used on tobacco
    and other crops and specifies how the pesticides may be used, it does
    not otherwise regulate residues of pesticides approved for use on
    tobacco.
    USDA, however, is required by the Dairy and Tobacco
    Adjustment Act to test imported and domestic tobacco for residues of
    pesticides not approved by EPA for use on tobacco that federal
    officials believe are used in other countries. By helping ensure that
    other countries do not use highly toxic pesticides that U.S. tobacco
    growers may not use, federal regulation of pesticide residues on
    tobacco addresses trade equity as well as health and environmental
    issues. However, USDA has not reevaluated the list of pesticides for
    which it tests since 1989, even though EPA has cancelled tobacco use
    for over 30 pesticides since then."
     
  13. firephly

    firephly Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    CA
    I did a search:

    The Plume Room
    "The Plume Room uses 100% organic nicotine extract, House Extracted Tobacco and the finest imported European flavorings to produce a truly satisfying vaping experience" Not sure if this is the same as NET?
    Best e liquid, artisan e cigarettes juice, organic e liquid | The Plume Room

    Three Fiddlehead Co.
    "We feature both Halo USA made premium e-liquids and our house tobaccos which are naturally extracted tobacco flavors.
    Our house made tobacco flavors are made from an in-house extraction of organically certified toasted burley tobacco." On a second look I only see Halo brand and not the "Our house made tobacco" they mentioned.....?
    Premium E-Liquid Tobacco Flavors | Three Fiddlehead Co.

    Cravin Vapes
    "Tobacco flavored eliquids quality brewed using our in-house organic tobacco extracts that are sure to please anyone's taste buds. " Not sure if this means NET either
    Tobacco flavored - CravinVapes

    Velvet Cloud
    "Our e-juice is made from scratch, using only 100% VG and a pinch of distilled water. All the components - base blend, nicotine absolute, tobacco absolute, etc. are made by the two of us, right here in San Francisco. We only use organic and natural flavorings."
    So they make their won tobacco extract but I'm not sure if that means the same thing as NET.
    Velvet Cloud Vapor - Organic and Natural All VG E-Liquid from San Francisco
     
  14. Gerick

    Gerick Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    Yes ,but they don't say where or who they buy their tobacco leaves from.

    Sure they can be organic from the point after they buy the tobacco leaves but what happens before that.

    "While EPA regulates the specific pesticides that may be used on tobacco
    and other crops and specifies how the pesticides may be used, it does
    not otherwise regulate residues of pesticides approved for use on
    tobacco
    "

    So that means the EPA doesn't test for "Pesticide Residue" or how much "Pesticide Residue" is on tobacco leaves used for tobacco products
     
  15. firephly

    firephly Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Well, in order for a product to be labeled organic it has to meet certain standards and be certified organic. Like American Spirit has a type of cig that they label organic (but not all all American Spirit cigs are sold as organic, some are sold as "natural" which doesn't mean organic).

    " Who allows Santa Fe Natural Tobacco Company to advertise its cigarettes "natural" and "organic?" Tobacco is lumped in with foodstuffs you eat under the USDA. Therefore, tobacco follows the edicts pertaining to, and regulations of, the USDA.

    Why is the Santa Fe NaturalTobacco Co. allowed to advertise its American Spirit cigarettes as "natural" and "organic?" Again, for starters, tobacco is actually considered a foodstuff by the U.S. government. Therefore, when the Santa Fe Tobacco Company follows the organic requirements that have been established, it gets to label its cigarettes organic."

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ml+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
     
  16. Gerick

    Gerick Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    Plus the biggy is ...when were the leaves "Harvest" after the last "application of pesticides" .

    Being the EPA doesn't test for "pesticide residue" on tobacco products

    Remember..the EPA regulates the pesticides ,but doesn't regulate the amount of pesticide residue for tobacco products. So if the leaves were sprayed 5 days before harvest they will be loaded with pesticide residue as oppose to 20 days before harvest.

    There's a chart on the web (can't find it now) that shows a huge difference of pest residue on leaves due to the timing of harvest and when was the last time the leaves were sprayed with pesticide before harvest.

    "While EPA regulates the specific pesticides that may be used on tobacco
    and other crops and specifies how the pesticides may be used, it does
    not otherwise regulate residues of pesticides approved for use on
    tobacco.
     
  17. Gerick

    Gerick Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    The "Santa Fe Tobacco " company is an American Indian company and I believe they have different regulations. Other words..they don't have to abide by the same laws as other companies. They have exemptions because they are AI.

    I just want to know where these NET juice suppliers get their leaves from ,so I can research the companies who actually grow the leaves.

    Yes they can be making the juice here in the USA and call it "100% made in the USA" and get away with it even if their leaves come from abroad.

    Different pesticides (some are the same for sure) are used in different countries .

    So..my question to the NET juice makers is ...where do you buy/get the tobacco leaves from ?
     
  18. firephly

    firephly Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Location:
    CA
    ""While EPA regulates the specific pesticides that may be used on tobacco
    and other crops and specifies how the pesticides may be used, it does
    not otherwise regulate residues of pesticides approved for use on
    tobacco."

    I'm sure that's true for regular tobacco, but in order to be certified organic they have to meet standards.

    "

    What is organic?

    Organic refers to the way agricultural products—food and fiber—are grown and processed. Organic food production is based on a system of farming that maintains and replenishes soil fertility without the use of toxic and persistent pesticides and fertilizers. Organic foods are minimally processed without artificial ingredients, preservatives, or irradiation to maintain the integrity of the food."

    Can any type of agricultural product become certified organic?

    Yes, any agricultural product that meets third-party or state certification requirements may be considered organic. Organic foods are becoming available in an impressive variety, including pasta, prepared sauces, frozen juices, frozen meals, milk, ice cream and frozen novelties, cereals, meat, poultry, breads, soups, chocolate, cookies, beer, wine, vodka and more. These foods, in order to be certified organic, have all been grown and processed according to organic standards and must maintain a high level of quality. Organic fiber products, too, have moved beyond T-shirts, and include bed and bath linens, tablecloths, napkins, cosmetic puffs, feminine hygiene products, and men’s, women’s and children’s clothing in a wide variety of styles.

    Are all organic products completely free of pesticide residues?

    Certified organic products have been grown and handled according to strict standards without toxic and persistent chemical inputs. However, organic crops are inadvertently exposed to agricultural chemicals that are now pervasive in rain and ground water due to their overuse during the past fifty years in North America, and due to drift via wind and rain.


    Do organic farmers ever use pesticides?

    Prevention is the organic farmer’s primary strategy for disease, weed, and insect control. By building healthy soils, organic farmers find that healthy plants are better able to resist disease and insects. Organic producers often select species that are well adapted for the climate and therefore resist disease and pests. When pest populations get out of balance, growers will try various options like insect predators, mating disruption, traps, and barriers. If these fail, permission may be granted by the certifier to apply botanical or other nonpersistent pest controls under restricted conditions. Botanicals are derived from plants and are broken down quickly by oxygen and sunlight.

    Questions and Answers About Organic - Organic Trade Association
     
  19. firephly

    firephly Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Location:
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    I emailed Velvet Cloud to ask if the tobacco they make their extracts from are certified organic, waiting to hear back.
     
  20. Bronze

    Bronze ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Wake Forest, NC
    If it hasn't been said already (I just hopped on this thread), Cravin' Vapes makes an organic NET. I believe they use it as a base for several offerings.
     
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