Glycerin and the 'Acrolein problem' anyone vaping VG read this

[rlorange]

Hello everyone I am studying chemistry and have done a lot of research on the PG vs VG debate.

You can read in detail my posts on this subject here:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...2-propylene-glycol-vegetable-glycerine-6.html

But to get you interested here are some facts:

Propylene Glycol (PG) has a boiling point of 188 degrees Celcius and there are no breakdown chemical reactions before this temperature. It can't reach a higher temperature in an e cigarette. PG is very safe in the quantities used when e smoking unless one is allergic.

Glycerol (VG) has a boiling point of 290 degrees Celsius which is far higher than PG so obviously it is less efficient at vapourising which makes PG the winner as an e smoking liquid. VG might make visible vapour but it is guarateed to vapourise less liquid and nicotine in total using the same energy generated from the ecigarette by the laws of physics.

But this is not the real concern, the real concern is that beyond 280 degrees VG starts to break down into HIGHLY TOXIC ACROLEIN this 10 DEGREES LOWER that the biling point for VG!

Now I dont think atomizers get hotter than 280 degrees normally but what about a malfuntioning one? I am not about to get acrolein poisoning to find out.

Finally, the maximum efficiency of the atomizer is when the liquid reaches its boiling point. I'm sure that it reaches the BP of PG but if it did reach the BP of VG then you have acrolein sythesis. Two reasons not to use VG, but low efficiency aside Acrolein is not something you should risk inhaling.

 

[kinabaloo]

I have talked exactly this before. And that has been my fear. If you search you can find my older posts. I think the notion that breakdown can occur before boiling might be wrong, but even so the fear is that if breakdown temp is not much higher than BP then we have an issue, and quite a serious one if acrolein is an early product in decomposition. But we shouldn't panic; but we do need to address this quickly.

 

[kinabaloo]

What worried me and led to the belief that VG itself might be breaking down and causing some of the deposits (as well as perhaps toxic gasses) is that VG is very viscous, so molecules close to the coil might reach breakdown temp before they could move to the surface and evaporate.

I researched this a fair bit but didn't find a breakdown temp; you might be right there, but i still doubt that.

I like VG - it is easier to get than PG, it is more obviously safe in everyday use, i.e. normal temp range (cakes, moisturisers, disco smoke etc) and it produces more vapour. I really want this concern to amount to nothing, but we need to be sure - and soon.

 

[kinabaloo]

One test we can do straight away is run two brand new atomisers under equal conditions (as near as we can) - one with PG and pure water and one with VG and pure water - and investigate the deposit quantity (if any) at certain intervals (1 day, 1 week, 1 month). I think i have mentioned this before.

If we get deposits, we are also getting breakdown. If we get deposits from both, we're in real trouble. Hopefully, we get no deposits in either case. This is too serious to speculate. We need to do the test.

 

[Phalse]

hello kinabaloo, I did read some of your other posts after searching a bit and they are very good.

The only problem was the advanced search function, the terms used to find your post also brings up dozens of pages of other posts.

Sorry we probably should have bumped someone elses older thread but I didnt find it until after the recent debate.

Thanks.

 

[Phalse]

Is there a source citation for the Boiling Point of VG?
I think the article said VG is 99% glycerine after the distillation process.
(even if its just the chemical structures boiling point should be accurate)




If the boiling point of VG is confirmed............Is there a source citaton for the Acrolein production point of VG being 280c?
(280c Acrolein point vs 290c boiling point)

 

[kinabaloo]

When i search here, i prefer to use google

I just think the acrolein possibility needs to be looked at. It's a real possibility and we just dont know.

My best guess on this is 50/50.

Terraphon did get deposits boiling off VG quickly with a blowtorch - but there is a possibility of contamination from the blowtorch gasses; but i don't think that 'contaimnation would explain it so that is a worrying finding. I got no deposits boiling off VG more slowly with a lighter. Now e need to know what happens in the atomiser ...

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Is there a source citation for the Boiling Point of VG?
I think the article said VG is 99% glycerine after the distillation process.
(even if its just the chemical structures boiling point should be accurate)




If the boiling point of VG is confirmed............Is there a source citaton for the Acrolein production point of VG being 280c?
(280c Acrolein point vs 290c boiling point)

Phalse--There was numerous tests done on the heat that our atomizers reach posted here months ago that showed that our atomizers do not get anywhere near the 280C mark and the Ruyan combustion studies also confirmed that---Sun

 

[Phalse]

I'm pretty sure a lighter is much hotter then the atomizer. (unless a malfunction, which is important for the VG question)

I think the atomizer would need much thicker wires (more like a car lighter) to create heat = to a lighter.

Probably the size of a atomizer thats working properly keeps it from heating up past a car cig lighter.

 

[Phalse]

Phalse--There was numerous tests done on the heat that our atomizers reach posted here months ago that showed that our atomizers do not get anywhere near the 280C mark and the Ruyan combustion studies also confirmed that---Sun

Hello Sun, thanks for that info. Do you happen to know if the atomizer temp was 250 c or 250 f ? I remember the post saying 250 but cant remember what unit.

 

[RjG]

I don't use VG, because of this very reason. Acrolein might happen, it might not...
or it might only happen when you get close to the end of a cart -
but why take the chance when PG is cheap and easy to get.

(how handy it was posted today) This isn't 280 deg, not even close:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-atomizer-coil-glowing.html?highlight=glowing

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Hello Sun, thanks for that info. Do you happen to know if the atomizer temp was 250 c or 250 f ? I remember the post saying 250 but cant remember what unit.

Phalse--It was 250C and tested many times--Sun

 

[kinabaloo]

Normally by decomposotion we mean burning. Glycerine can be used as a fuel and there is reference to incomplete combustion producing acrolein. I think this means insufficient oxygen.

For various reasons I have ended up staying up all night and it is now 6:30am here in the UK so I'll have to depart for a while. While I know a certain amount of chemistry I'm no expert. Perhaps we can arrange some small scale 'test' at a laboratory - just an initial indicator as to whether this might be an issue.

The simplest test anyone can do - brand new atomiser, only pure distilled water and VG, run it some days and look for a deposit. There should be no deposit at all from VG and pure distilled water.

If there is a deposit, we need to investigate the vapor - what gasses are present and that requires a lab.

Even if there is some breakdown, it does not necessarily include acrolein or anything else harmful. Remember, VG is used in cake baking and smoke machines; cake mixes might not reach the high temps of atomisers. Perhaps the breakdown products are too small in quantity to be a worry.

Interestingly I only got the 'bad smell' with cigarette taste juices and not with the VG and flavourings I use now - almost no taste if runs dry, just a slight hot metal taste. A reason to be optimistic

 

[Phalse]

its not 280 c but it is probably 280 f easy.

 

[kinabaloo]

Sun - 250 is not far off 280. Remember that VG is viscous - it could insulate the heat causing a higher temp to build up right next to the coil. And many people also run on USB and battery packs, say 5 or 6v not the 3.7 of the normal battery. HIgher volts, higher temp; not necessarily more dangerous though. The whole thing is complicated when considered carefully. To say 250 is less than 280 so no problem is too shallow. The temperature will vary with time and location, amount of fluid, its viscosity, air flow, and so on and on ... What about when the atomizer ages and the coil gets thinner and hotter (perhaps); test probably use brand new atomisers - what about when they are covered in deposits?; so many possible factors ...

Did Ruyan test with VG ?

The coil might not be 'too hot' when 'wet' but what when 'running dry'. That was my observation that first raised my concern. At those times (many times per day) there is the possibility of raised temp and burning.

I must go, but will pick up on this tomorrow.
There are many reasons to doubt there is a serious issue here. But am I sure? No, not sure.

I'm not personally that worried by this, i used to smoke analogs right down till the filter burned, for years. But we all would like a truly clean technology and hopefully it is. We can try to make sure ourselves that there is no basis for questioning the safety of vaping.

 

[Phalse]

I thought PG was used in smoke machines?

 

[Nuck]

I've never gotten an off smell when dripping with VG. It's a very pleasant, mildly sweet vapor. I would probably go with PG if I was getting a smell that is described as:

"It has a piercing, disagreeable, acrid smell similar to that of burning fat."

Barring that though, the lab that analyzed the TW liquid recommended using VG instead of PG to reduce the health risks. Its in the health section on these forums.

Heres the link:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...smoking-liquid-about-hit-uk-20.html#post39187

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Sun - 250 is not far off 280. Remember that VG is viscous - it could insulate the heat causing a higher temp right next to the coil. Many people also run on USB and battery packs. Did Ruyan test with VG ?

I goota go, but will pick up on this tomorrow.

Kinabaloo--Testing done by Pony Inc was only done on PG but the high point temp was 250C--The issue of acrolein addressed in depth here and dismissed--there are several threads on it--I will do a search--Sun

 

[Sun Vaporer]

It was in the New Zeland report that dimissed it outright---See:

dazzer1975
Full Member

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Rochdale...sadly.
Posts: 93

Quote:
Originally Posted by KentSP
I am not sure if this has been covered elsewhere on the forum but does anybody know how hot the coil in an e-cigarette gets? The reason being is that Glycerin turns into Acrolein at 280 C which happens to be a poison that may cause lung cancer. Would be too bad though cause I prefer glycerin to PG.

as tb says, dont worry about it, cigarette smoke contains this chemical along with a damn site more that e cigarettes do not contain.

I have chilled out about all the stuff inside e cigarettes as I use a safe supplier for liquids and dilute them with glycerol occasionaly ultimately hoping to stop e smoking altogether and break the nic addiction.

Way I see it, unless you have any immediate reaction to e smoking then it is safer than cigarettes, also bearing in mind cigs combust at around the 1000 degrees c mark whereas an ecig cant be anywhere near that and as has been discussed elsewhere, falls short of the 280c mark.

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[Phalse]

whats the mc donalds story lol