I've noticed that anytime someone has a motive they don't want examined, they bring God into it. Like it's supposed to settle things.
Andria
FDA If not regulation then what?
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I've noticed that anytime someone has a motive they don't want examined, they bring God into it. Like it's supposed to settle things.
Andria
Hmmmm, that's interesting because...I've noticed that anytime someone has a motive they don't want examined, they bring God into it. Like it's supposed to settle things.
I was about to say "God built our body to inhale..." but decided not to.
I try to avoid bring religion or politics into discussions unless it is entirely relevant.
So, your point may be correct, since I elected not to go there.
Or maybe not, since I wanted to go there.
Hmmmm, that's interesting because...
I was about to say "God built our body to inhale..." but decided not to.
I try to avoid bring religion or politics into discussions unless it is entirely relevant.
So, your point may be correct, since I elected not to go there.
Or maybe not, since I wanted to go there.
ROFL!
You know that thing about Godwin's law, bringing up Nazis, as if that's supposed to end the discussion, and usually it does end the discussion, not the way the user intended, but because people start frothing at the mouth and a mod closes the thread -- flinging God into a debate seems to have a similar effect.
I've heard that patriotism is the last bastion of rascals or something to that effect... using God as a debating point seems much along the same lines.
Andria
Couldn't agree more and I believe that was the OP's point.
Also agree, which is evidenced by most of the responses when the OP started the thread.
Folks hear the term regulation and they think about current regulation attempts and that they're all bad an everyone is out to get them. Regulation can be good (although not in it's current form).
I've noticed that anytime someone has a motive they don't want examined, they bring God into it. Like it's supposed to settle things.
Andria
So, let it be written.......
What a bloody weasel... I was this close to buying JUUL myself.
Does he really believe that sucking up to Zeller will save his sorry behind?
SJ--I'm going to quote your post in the JUUL thread. Thanks for the heads up.
I guess the way you view 'regulation', there are 'trade associations' and 'trade associations'. While I know of some that include companies (or force companies to be included) in order to get their 'sanction', even those have board members and exec staff that are from the larger companies. That they still attempt to maintain their prominence by putting on or lobbying for restrictions on small and start up businesses is rather routine.
Whenever I hear the 'you're not seriously suggesting... xxx' I hear a logical fallacy, actually a few - in this case ad populum (basically everybody knows) and argument from incredulity (I can't imagine this to be so) or an appeal to "common sense" (where "common" is self defined toward one's view).
I know a little about the industry - DW is a stylist and while the main function is hair, cosmetics is also a part of her job; and regulation in general - I've subscribed to Regulation magazine (a Cato publication) for decades now, and just read a bit more in a search. It seems the cosmetic industry has a rather rich history of self-regulation - that is until Sen. Eagleton (running mate for Mondale) proposed a bill for stricter regulation (that is stricter than the 1938 act that pertains to the industry). And the PCPC resisted this attack but eventually 'liaized' with the FDA in order to stop the bleeding, cut losses and to cut their own self-regulation as well. No thanks to a list of Senators that reads like 'our' list of Senators who send letters to the FDA and OMB, including Ted Kennedy at the time.
And I can imagine (although as above, you can not) that there was a time when very little regulation was in place - similar to what we have now in ecigs BUT where the community self-regulated - similar to what we do now and most likely there were 'incidents' that were spread through the gov't loving media that insisted that "something should be done about... x" And certain politicians saw that backing such a proposal could get them votes and some donations by the 'those who knows what's best' mindset and so bills were drafted, etc. etc. ad infinitum. So yes, I am seriously suggesting that cosmetic regulation is not a good idea. I acknowledge that certain chemicals used would be regulated in other areas and may well be appropriate.
But the 'state board of cosmology' for example deals not with whether someone has the skill to be a hairstylist but whether they know all the 'safety and health concerns'. Their 'continuing education' is all about getting up to date on the 100's of pages of new regulations and the cost pays for the bureaucrats that run it and means absolutely nothing to the professional hairstylist other than they know they have to do it in order to continue their jobs.
Carl:
"FDA does not regulate cigarettes and smokeless tobacco now, and would not regulate e-cigarettes under the deeming — not in any normal sense of the word “regulate”. Well, I suppose you can call any government restriction on commerce “regulation” if you define it broadly enough."
And he gives examples - paraphrasing - yeah, they enforce labels, flavorings, sale to minors, but they don't 'regulate' (filling in here) the 4000 chemicals used in cigarettes. I, of course, do use the broader (dictionary) definition but I understand why Carl wouldn't. He can then claim (rightfully so) that the FDA is attempting to shut down the whole industry or at least 99.9% of it. But 'shutting down' or 'enforce requirements' is what regulation is about - whether it pertains to the whole or only the parts and when it's just the parts, sometimes it may as well have been the whole. See the 'components' part of the deeming - regulating parts where the whole is affected - I'd point this out to Carl when he states that it is only the 'whole' - ie a prohibition. (which I also think he mis-defines, or simply uses other actual prohibitions to 'make his case').
But each regulation either prohibits or enforces some aspect of the business. Labels are enforced. Flavorings are restricted, as is sale to minors and there are a bunch more that he failed to mention on the production and distribution of the product that he failed to mention. Without doing a deep search, I'm guessing each of the 4000 chemicals added have had some process through gov't agencies and the tobacco companies have made their case in order to be allowed to include them in production. That they still exist, doesn't mean they didn't go through some regulatory process. Just knowing gov't, one should, with 'common sense', know about the minutiae that gov't goes through with almost any product.
I have not tried to exaggerate the case by, say, throwing in the 14th amendment as Carl did. I'm saying the business can self-regulate like we have here for nearly a decade now with very few incidents and to prop up those incidents (mainly performed by fools) in order to regulate the entire industry for the not-so-foolish is wrong headed and a violation of the rights of individuals to go about their lives without gov't intervening on every aspect of it. If we 'lose' a few by stupidity of individuals or vendors, that's small, in comparison to the lives saved, and the parents and grandparents saved to be able to see their children and grandchildren grow up.
Just to be clear - It wasn't Verb who said that, which is what I thought when I read just your post :- )
What a contradiction. And excellent point. A lot of my remarks on alternatives I'm afraid better belong on this thread rather than either…
TVECA post table of contents for Deeming Final Rule; or,
FDA's leaked guidance for PMTAs confirm deeming reg would ban >99.9% of nicotine vapor products | E-Cigarette Forum.
Good luck all.
What a contradiction. And excellent point. A lot of my remarks on alternatives I'm afraid better belong on this thread rather than either…
TVECA post table of contents for Deeming Final Rule; or,
FDA's leaked guidance for PMTAs confirm deeming reg would ban >99.9% of nicotine vapor products | E-Cigarette Forum.
Good luck all.
Sadly, some will never see that contradiction - their ideology prevents that perception. Just the opposite of how things should go - your ideology should be based in perception :- ) But that's a few books worth of discussion
A routine survey I take among folks of every kind. — Who knows better what to do with your money or your life? You, or an unknown fellow 1500 miles away?
Good luck all.
Do you own a TV set? Do you have CNN? Do you think you know better what's going on around the world than you did 15 years ago? You answered your own question. —Tom Clancy
Good luck all.
Do you own a TV set? Do you have CNN? Do you think you know better what's going on around the world than you did 15 years ago? You answered your own question. —Tom Clancy
Leave Vaping Alone. The govment being involved will Not Improve Anything Other Than Their Share Of The PIE (MONEY)
Lemon laws in vaping wouldn't be necessary if vendors passed on the warranties they receive from the manufacturers. I've had to "fight it out" with a few vendors after receiving defective joyetech products, which THEY are warrantied for, and should be passing that on to me, the customer. So, self regulation is avoiding (and "outing") vendors who don't stand by their products, whether that be hardware, ejuice with stuff floating around in it, or badly oxidized nicotine solution, for instance.......or even worse, vendors like Mrs. T's who has been fraudulently taking money for years from vapers but vapers didn't get tough on her (attorney general type tough for taking $$ and not sending products)
Yes, Americans have bought into the cheap and disposable mind-set. Most people's homes would be almost "empty" if they avoided chinese products.
On the other hand, what exactly IS an "american" product? As was pointed out, even with Provaris, what % is american made? Maybe that one little circuit board that goes inside.....that's about it. "Assembled in the USA" would be more appropriate.
I try to explain this to people buying laptops when they go for "brand". I've opened up thousands of laptops, and worked on them. They are all basically using the same components, then putting their name on the outside cases, which are just different colors, shapes and sizes. Believe me, the components are all coming off the same conveyor belts in factories. Because only so many factories are making motherboards, chips, hard drives, etc. They are just "assembled" in different locations with all those "parts".
ALso keep in mind, not all chinese made products are junk. There are MANY company's who submit their specs, and have their products made there. It's all in the quality of the spec. The chinese build to YOUR SPEC. If your specs are high end then the resulting product will be high end, too. Any chinese factory is capable, just as if it were here in the US, of building high quality products. One of the reasons Jobs went there for the iPhones, etc.........but it was also about ability to act fast with in a global distribution environment. He TRIED to get US manufacturing plants to build out for his stuff.....they just couldn't DELIVER on the timeline. It was gonna take "forever". We just don't have the flexibility anymore. That is a fact. Read about how and why he went there. They were willing to build out an entire industrial park, soup to nuts, and have a killer distribution network set up, lickety split. In the US it was taking them months and years. Jobs said he wasn't going to wait. time is money.
So no, not all made in china stuff has to be, or is, cheap crapola. It depends on the spec you gave them to build your products!
I have no problem with some regs.....I do want my eliquid to be dated, shrinkwrapped, and also have a lot number on it. Because there are bad batches of everything, whether it be vape related or not. And it is useful for the MAKER to be able to identify a product that may have negative effects on people who are injesting them...because lot numbers and such allow them to check where and when things were distributed, and the products can be recalled, etc. This helps everybody. Years ago the first time I ordered from Wizard Labs everything had lot numbers. So do most of the better eliquid mixer/bottlers. Stuff has to be *traceable*.
As for pharmaceuticals, whether it be chantix or anything else, I have taken hundreds of drugs that adversely affected OTHER people.....and they worked great for me and cured whatever condition it was prescribed for. And vice versa, drugs I've taken that NOBODY has problems with except my body couldn't handle it. Chantix worked great for me, before there was vaping it allowed me to quit smoking for 5+ years when I did cold turkey. It was my own fault that I picked up a cig again.
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And how did we "know" about the spinach?
I remember when that popular brand of ice cream that is mostly distributed in the South, was making people very very ill, some died. It is IMPORTANT that we know as soon as possible from where a contamination is coming from......and that has to be QUICK, because time is of the essence.
the FDA, the CDC, Health Departments, inspectors.....they can't keep contaminations from happening. But they do have a dedicated network to get the word out, to ERs, to Trauma Centers, and to alert the manufacturers .. who then must go looking for the source of contamination.
I got a very bad parasite from a subway where an employee didn't wash their hands. Of course, we didn't know this until an investigation was started. Because of the government network, health depts, CDC, we were able to track down at EXACTLY what location this ocurred, they went in and tested at every place I ate for a 3 day period, including stuff in my refrigerator......all the food that had lot numbers, etc..........thereby saving other people from the living Heck I went thru.....believe me, you do not want even ONE other person to experience something like this. Not one. I almost died.
It appears that some people really do not understand how some of these agencies work. I had to have an immunization I received traced. They had to go back to doctors office, to lot numbers, to the local hospital where they got it from, and then the manufacturer. etc. etc. It was very edifying. And thank goodness the CDC was interested in the very rare adverse affect I had. They were able to add it to their database.
Like I said, people who don't like this can go live in Haiti or somewhere. I've been there. YOu do not want to live there, and mostly, you do not want to get sick there.
While I appreciated your post...
It might be worthwhile to consider WHY we can't do things as easily here in the United States anymore.
It's a complicated issue, for sure, and there is usually two sides to every coin.
Little things like, oh, I dunno.. american workers wanting to make a wage they can actually LIVE on?
Andria
I appreciate what youre probably gonna say, but I also think that people here need to "update" their knowledge about why that job went to china. I know some people think it's about regs and wages, but it's actually not. These have become the "excuses" used for well over 2+ decades now, and they don't hold up anymore.
When Jobs wanted an unscratchable screen, he found the answers in china. The number of educated, mid-level engineers in China is huge. (ditto in India, the amount of people with advanced mathematics, physics and engineering degrees dwarfs us now.) they literally couldn't FIND 10,000 mid-level engineers here that they could get to work fast enough. And the parts that go into the phones.......come from germany, taiwan, Korea and Japan not just china.
Additionally, the rest of the entire supply chain is there, i.e. you need A, B, C widget, the factory "next door" to where iPhones are being produced is gonna have them. "flexibility, diligence and industrial skills of foreign workers have so outpaced their American counterparts that “Made in the U.S.A.” is no longer a viable option for most Apple products." Foxconn has 230,000 workers who are willing to work long days 6 days a week. (They like having a paycheck.) When they had to change the glass on the iphone they woke up 10,000 workers, and had the phones going back out w/in 4 days. We cannot match that kind of speed and flexibility....it has nothing to do with regs or anything else, it has to do with HUMAN WILLINGNESS.
(All you have to do is study the guys who launched the space shuttles.....it brings a tear to my eye realizing we will never assemble crack teams like that again. Those guys were all well educated AND they were willing to work 7 days a week. They lived and breathed their jobs.
If you believe in capitalism, then this is the way it works.
The truth is that people here have had it too easy for too long and won't get up in the middle of the night for their job.
(heck, the number of stories I read right on this forum about people willing to "give up their jobs" because they, um, can't vape at work! waaa waaah waaaaah...boohoo............we are spoiled, plain and simple.)
Plenty of time to figure out what jobs we CAN have here. Opportunities galore. Bill Gates and others are making HUGE personal investments in green technology. Let's get on board and quit whining about all the stuff we can't compete against anymore because of lack of science/engineering/math education and just plain unwillingness to do what it takes (ask a few people to go live in a dorm at their job site and let me know what happens.
) Read about how Cook decided to move stuff to Asia. It had nothing to do with regs. or wages. He explains it very well.
Sorry Andrea, that is the excuse that has been used and it's not applicable anymore. In case you haven't noticed, people in Norway have an excellent standard of living, and their wages are much higher than ours. Cook and Jobs explained it in depth when they moved to Asia, and it wasn't about wages. It never was. READ the books on it. READ the interviews. Quit mouthing the same ol' sour grapes.
Pretty much every analyst in academics and manufacturing have answered this queston......that labor wages is a very small part of technology manufacturing. Even the head of MIT said what it is......we do not have the number of mid level engineers required. (more than high school, less than 4 years of college or pH.D.). Since they are educating engineers, they know.
It's doesn't matter how things *were* back in the 1950s. We aren't IN the 1950s anymore. We need to figure out how to compete in the world, on the great stage that is capitalism, in 2015 and onward.
If we can't do that, then either we aren't very smart after all, or we're just a bunch of losers, plain and simple. We're getting to 30 years time now we've had to quit mouthing the same ol' excuses, while the rest of the world is working hard and producing things.
PS Nobody stopped Robert at REO or Provari from making ecigs. Yet, I can barely think of many US companies who did this. Can you? They seem to be doing okay, financially and otherwise. It's because they actually went out and did it.
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I don't think very many there have to allow themselves to be on call for coming in to work in the middle of the night.
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