There may be an easy answer to the FDA ban

[hason74]

I think trial and error with the solvent used to extract the nicotine from the patch plus filtering should get rid of any glue. Find the solvent which leaves the glue alone yet still dissolves nicotine. I'm guessing the most polar one because the glue resists water, maybe methanol.

put the nic' crystals in a bowl, pour in acetone, knead the crystals to remove the glue(glue will go into acetone) poor out acetone, rinse and repeat 5 times, I use to do illegal things, this is how u get the glue out. acetone is fingernail polish remover, fingernail polish is "glued" to your fingernails.

 

[StratOvation]

Ok, I've held my tongue 'til now, But some of you folks appear to be seriously considering an attempt at recycling/extracting nicotine in your homes.... Please, do not ever attempt any off-handed ideas that you find anywhere on the internet as a means of extracting or concentrating nicotine! Especially with the intent of using the material for human ingestion!
The health and safety risks are far greater than people seem to realize here and I'd hate to see a post titled "E-Vaper123 found dead" posted by a family member, trying to learn why their relative appeared to be running a .... lab in his kitchen.
I have personally worked with concentrated Nicotine (By the Drum) in the past, Let me assure you.. It is not just a possibility you will harm or kill yourself... It is Very likely!!!
Mike

 

[sleets1]

The FDA has my juice and are asking for a drug listing number. I understand from discussions that the nicotine levels are not high enough for there to be a drug listing number and therefor the FDA to be involved until they make a ruling accross the board.
Anyone know what I should tell them besides threatening to sue in order to get my juice? HELP! I need my juice!

 

[Kate]

The FDA have categorised eliquid as a drug, they haven't specified nicotine levels that might be acceptable. The UK Trading Standards have assessed eliquid under the Poisons Act and found that no restrictions apply because nicotine concentration is not high enough. Maybe you're getting US and UK enforcement mixed up.

Some shipments have been returned to sender from US customs because eliquid is not approved.

 

[StratOvation]

The FDA has my juice and are asking for a drug listing number. I understand from discussions that the nicotine levels are not high enough for there to be a drug listing number and therefor the FDA to be involved until they make a ruling accross the board.
Anyone know what I should tell them besides threatening to sue in order to get my juice? HELP! I need my juice!

As I understand it Sleets.... The FDA is asking you for a number that does not yet exist because they haven't issued a number for "Nicotine in a PG solution". To date the FDA has reffered to your juice only as a "New Drug".
Obviously..."New non-approved" drugs do not have a FDA listing number.

 

[TropicalBob]

There was another report of seized liquid where the FDA wanted an "NDA" number for the liquid. That's new drug approval. And there isn't one. You might have to kiss that liquid goodbye. Keep us posted on the ultimate outcome. We had one poster like this ... many posts followed .. and the original guy never told us how it turned out.

 

[StratOvation]

Sleets,
My response to your earlier post was a bit rushed...I'm curious what the vaue of "Your Juice" is, Primarily for one reason...unless you have several thousands of dollars wrapped up in this particular shipment...take TB's advice and write it off...consider it a loss and try to continue with doing business.
I've dealt directly with many FDA field auditors over a couple of decades +, One thing I can say as an absolute....Never, ever, under any circumstance is it a wise move to threaten the FDA with legal action unless you have previously consulted with your legal team and gained their whole hearted support and confidence that you have a solid case.
And if you are able to garner the full support of your legal staff.....Start looking for a new legal staff, because you probably have a stable full of nags that cannot finish this sorta race.

We (Distributors, Suppliers and end use consumers) all have to prepare for what is likely to be a challenging and protracted uphill battle to maintain some semblance of a viable US market for the foreseeable future.

Mike

 

[sleets1]

Thanks for the replies fellows. Four of us got together to try and get in on discounted juice before the crackdown happened. We don't have a lot of money invested but we wanted a years worth for all four of us.

I spoke with the UPS agent attached to the FDA and have a call in to the FDA and was basically told that NO shipments were being cleared for any reason and what are our intentions concerning the juice. Choices were to have it destroyed or shipped back to the manufacturer.

Not enough $$ involved to fight it but am willing to do my part. Not sure what that is at this point

Vape on!

 

[ratfink]

Perhaps it's time to start passing around the hat get a fund together to pay researchers and lawyers to act on our behalf. But sitting around and complaining will not get stuff though the approval process. While it may seem daunting, the main ingredients are pretty well known so it wouldn't be like getting approval for a new drug.

I think it's also time that we start putting pressure on retailers making medical or safety claims. Even one or two bad retailers will give them the bait they need to streamroll the rest.

 

[ratfink]

That doesn't make any sense! They haven't banned "water tobacco pipes", other glass pipes. Those are all used for much more than tobacco. There's vaporizers (much larger than the e-cig) used to smoke weed. Those haven't been banned yet and most likely will never be banned. I don't see how the e-cig hardware could ever be deemed illegal.

The water is a bit murky here. The FDA can limit sales on "Medical Devices" if they deem it so and has 3 classes of increasing regulation. But even making the devices a Class I device could require FDA oversight at the factories, mandatory labeling requirements and registration.

 

[TropicalBob]

You're certainly right about the devices. It's almost funny how far people will stretch to see the FDA allowing e-cigs to continue -- as they are now. If a full-court ban comes, it will be total -- liquids, carts and devices.

Once drug delivery is taken as fact, then the device to deliver the drug becomes a regulated medical device. And an e-cig isn't approved and regulated for that.

 

[Duckies]

The only thing I can think of is that it would take a terrific amount of money for the FDA to do anything at this point. I don't think this will be acted on, tbh.

Late to the game here, but wanted to comment on this.

Yes, it would take a huge cash infusion/grant to the FDA to actually bother testing them. Pharma seeks approval/safety -- we are just looking for "less harmful than the alternative". No cash backing that and no way is approval/safety happening as we control our own nic dosage.

With Big Pharma not getting their cut, Big Tobacco not getting theirs and Da Gub'mint not seeing tax revenues, the case could be made that smoking (and useless Pharma NRT) are better off left without competition.

Signatures on ban documents (triggering Customs and who knows who else) don't cost a thing.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Late to the game here, but wanted to comment on this.

Yes, it would take a huge cash infusion/grant to the FDA to actually bother testing them. Pharma seeks approval/safety -- we are just looking for "less harmful than the alternative". No cash backing that and no way is approval/safety happening as we control our own nic dosage.

With Big Pharma not getting their cut, Big Tobacco not getting theirs and Da Gub'mint not seeing tax revenues, the case could be made that smoking (and useless Pharma NRT) are better off left without competition.

Signatures on ban documents (triggering Customs and who knows who else) don't cost a thing.

Duckie--Remember that the FDA does not do testing -- the burden falls on the Applicant to have the requiste testing and studies done and paid for by the Applicant!!!! The FDA only approves after reviewing what is submitted to them. The manufacture has the burden of advancing and paying for this. In the case of e-cigs there is no applications on file and no studies in the works that meet their critera--The e-cig's will fail because of the manufactures failure to follow the mandated guidlines of the FDA-----------Sun

 

[b00stzx3]

Big Tobacco or Big Pharma could take this as a signal and see dollar signs. I mean, we have to get the nicotine from tobacco. They could have a cash cow selling e-juices and e-cigs.

 

[dEFinitionofEPIC]

You're certainly right about the devices. It's almost funny how far people will stretch to see the FDA allowing e-cigs to continue -- as they are now. If a full-court ban comes, it will be total -- liquids, carts and devices.

Once drug delivery is taken as fact, then the device to deliver the drug becomes a regulated medical device. And an e-cig isn't approved and regulated for that.

I don't know if that is totally true.... Marijuana is illegal but you are allowed to buy bongs. It would be easy to sell a vaporizer as a "vapor incense burner" or some other kind of nonsense. I think the juice and carts would be the only problem.

EDIT....though I see I spoke to soon... Bizzybot already mentioned this.... Think he's got the right idea though....

 

[CandyGirl]

You're certainly right about the devices. It's almost funny how far people will stretch to see the FDA allowing e-cigs to continue -- as they are now. If a full-court ban comes, it will be total -- liquids, carts and devices.

Once drug delivery is taken as fact, then the device to deliver the drug becomes a regulated medical device. And an e-cig isn't approved and regulated for that.

now i'm worried.
i have this intuition that TropicalBob has an ability to cut through the bs and see all this for what it is, and will be. he just seems to know what he's talking about.

that said, i'm worried because behind all the what ifs and comparisons and frustrations with "it's not fair", it always comes down to the nicotine.

because of the way it was and is marketed the FDA can say it's a drug delivery device and therfore it's also banned? across the board?

everytime i see members ask about excluding the nicotine, it seems people don't really want to discuss it as an option. i realize, for some, the idea of having the device without the nicotine may render it completely useless, but i really, truly believe this is my answer to keeping off the cigarettes even without the nicotine. i know it.

it may be no more than mental .........ion to most of you to even consider 0 nicotine, but i want this device with or without the liquid. seriously.

why does the equation always have to be with the nicotine. i know, from a suppliers point of view, sales, competitors who sell the nic liquid, nic carts, blah blah blah. it looks like a cigarette, fruity flavors, children, yada, yada yada. all valid concerns, i understand all that, i really do.

but i also want to believe there is some hope that an FDA or even a court decision could be handed down where "we see absolutely no violation of using a personal vaporizer with 0 nicotine."

and please don't start with "flavorings not approved for inhalation", okay just PG and/or VG.

"therefore the devices are not illegal all by themselves".

does anyone see this happening?

TB?

 

[Sun Vaporer]

now i'm worried.
i have this intuition that TropicalBob has an ability to cut through the bs and see all this for what it is, and will be. he just seems to know what he's talking about.

that said, i'm worried because behind all the what ifs and comparisons and frustrations with "it's not fair", it always comes down to the nicotine.

because of the way it was and is marketed the FDA can say it's a drug delivery device and therfore it's also banned? across the board?

everytime i see members ask about excluding the nicotine, it seems people don't really want to discuss it as an option. i realize, for some, the idea of having the device without the nicotine may render it completely useless, but i really, truly believe this is my answer to keeping off the cigarettes even without the nicotine. i know it.

it may be no more than mental .........ion to most of you to even consider 0 nicotine, but i want this device with or without the liquid. seriously.

why does the equation always have to be with the nicotine. i know, from a suppliers point of view, sales, competitors who sell the nic liquid, nic carts, blah blah blah. it looks like a cigarette, fruity flavors, children, yada, yada yada. all valid concerns, i understand all that, i really do.

but i also want to believe there is some hope that an FDA or even a court decision could be handed down where "we see absolutely no violation of using a personal vaporizer with 0 nicotine."

and please don't start with "flavorings not approved for inhalation", okay just PG and/or VG.

"therefore the devices are not illegal all by themselves".

does anyone see this happening?

TB?

There is a good position to be made for it Candy--PG is in the Nicotine Inhaler that is already appoved--so absent the nicotine---where is the "Drug". And yes, there are a lot of use, including myself that DO NOT USE nicotine in our devices. It is hard to argue that the PG may not be safe when it is already approved to be being inhaled-------Sun

 

[dEFinitionofEPIC]

now i'm worried.
i have this intuition that TropicalBob has an ability to cut through the bs and see all this for what it is, and will be. he just seems to know what he's talking about.

that said, i'm worried because behind all the what ifs and comparisons and frustrations with "it's not fair", it always comes down to the nicotine.

because of the way it was and is marketed the FDA can say it's a drug delivery device and therfore it's also banned? across the board?

everytime i see members ask about excluding the nicotine, it seems people don't really want to discuss it as an option. i realize, for some, the idea of having the device without the nicotine may render it completely useless, but i really, truly believe this is my answer to keeping off the cigarettes even without the nicotine. i know it.

it may be no more than mental .........ion to most of you to even consider 0 nicotine, but i want this device with or without the liquid. seriously.

why does the equation always have to be with the nicotine. i know, from a suppliers point of view, sales, competitors who sell the nic liquid, nic carts, blah blah blah. it looks like a cigarette, fruity flavors, children, yada, yada yada. all valid concerns, i understand all that, i really do.

but i also want to believe there is some hope that an FDA or even a court decision could be handed down where "we see absolutely no violation of using a personal vaporizer with 0 nicotine."

and please don't start with "flavorings not approved for inhalation", okay just PG and/or VG.

"therefore the devices are not illegal all by themselves".

does anyone see this happening?

TB?

Like I said--- Google "Marijuana Vaporizer". YES, you can legally buy a marijuana-specific vaporizer in the United States. At a head shop, or on the internet. Medical marijuana users use these all the time for a safer smoke. As we know however, medical marijuana is not legal in every state. Anyone can buy a marijuana vaporizer legally with a medical marijuana prescription or not. I do not see why Marijuana vaporizers would be legal to buy and sell but not NICOTINE vaporizers. If liquid nicotine were made illegal than the two would definitely be in the same ballpark. Because it's ok for marijuana (a scheduled illegal drug) I do not see why the same treatment would not apply to nicotine.

 

[CandyGirl]

thank you Sun.

 

[b00stzx3]

Like I said--- Google "Marijuana Vaporizer". YES, you can legally buy a marijuana-specific vaporizer in the United States. At a head shop, or on the internet. Medical marijuana users use these all the time for a safer smoke. As we know however, medical marijuana is not legal in every state. Anyone can buy a marijuana vaporizer legally with a medical marijuana prescription or not. I do not see why Marijuana vaporizers would be legal to buy and sell but not NICOTINE vaporizers. If liquid nicotine were made illegal than the two would definitely be in the same ballpark. Because it's ok for marijuana (a scheduled illegal drug) I do not see why the same treatment would not apply to nicotine.

Welcome to the always rational, senses-making United States

What I don't get is, how are things already illegal still allowed for importation? Theres 4 headshops in my old ghetto neighborhood in Baltimore. I doubt there making the bongs and bowls here!