Is the whole scandal with da and ap overblown? Some numbers inside

[Jman8]

I was trying to make a point about the cost for consumers to test all their own juices. Take how many bottles of juice have you bought and then tack on the cost for you to test each bottle yourself. The whole idea of a consumer paying to test their own bottles at this point is ludicrous. I would love to have access to an inexpensive reliable testing method for home use. But I haven't seen it yet.

The obvious solution to keeping costs down for individual testing is to buy less product so you have more money for testing. Again, if the concern is that great, then this is most sensible approach. The idea that all of the industry will perfectly be able to have funds to test product is both unreasonable and living in fantasy land. It will surely impact the market, and likely curtail things down to very few products now being offered, all of which will have their own concerns.

If you fought against FDA deeming, and you were paying attention to what the politically aware vapers were saying, a really huge aspect of the deeming is just how much this will impact the market, and likely lead to early exit by many vendors. That the FDA used the exact words of "early exit" in its supplemental document to the proposal, ought to lead reasonable, and politically aware vaper, to realize you don't want to be on that team going forward.

I love this notion that for vendors it would be pennies to test, but for consumers it would be hundreds of dollars. I buy from a vendor that offers (via their mixing) 14 million flavors (or flavor combinations). So, even if it were pennies (which it ain't), that would mean a whole bunch of pennies are going to be spent on testing their product. I'm thinking that 14 million number goes down to 30 real fast. And could, rather easily, mean that products that were DA/AP free are no longer offered, because testing costs money. Yes it does, boys and girls.

 

[Thundernoggin]

The obvious solution to keeping costs down for individual testing is to buy less product so you have more money for testing. Again, if the concern is that great, then this is most sensible approach. The idea that all of the industry will perfectly be able to have funds to test product is both unreasonable and living in fantasy land. It will surely impact the market, and likely curtail things down to very few products now being offered, all of which will have their own concerns.

If you fought against FDA deeming, and you were paying attention to what the politically aware vapers were saying, a really huge aspect of the deeming is just how much this will impact the market, and likely lead to early exit by many vendors. That the FDA used the exact words of "early exit" in its supplemental document to the proposal, ought to lead reasonable, and politically aware vaper, to realize you don't want to be on that team going forward.

I love this notion that for vendors it would be pennies to test, but for consumers it would be hundreds of dollars. I buy from a vendor that offers (via their mixing) 14 million flavors (or flavor combinations). So, even if it were pennies (which it ain't), that would mean a whole bunch of pennies are going to be spent on testing their product. I'm thinking that 14 million number goes down to 30 real fast. And could, rather easily, mean that products that were DA/AP free are no longer offered, because testing costs money. Yes it does, boys and girls.

It is far easier for an e-juice vendor to roll the testing cost into the retail price of the product especially if they are selling a decent volume. If it costs them $150 an ejuice flavor and they sell a thousand bottles it costs them 15 cents a bottle to test. And given that we are in a market place where plenty of stuff is selling at over $20 a bottle I don't see this as a problem. And it sure doesn't look like The Plume Room, Bombies, Baker White, Mountain Oak, or anyone else is going out of business because of testing costs. If the FDA comes along and does something stupid that would be an entirely separate expense.

14 million flavors? Are you doing DIY or commercial?

 

[DeAnna2112]

Honestly, I and many others are not going to bother spending the money or time testing a vendor's liquid that they don't even care enough to test themselves. I will first buy from a vendor who provides labs showing no diketones, and then and only then will i bother to pay to test it myself to further confirm the honesty of their lab reports.

Seriously, what fool would pay for testing on a vendors product that they have not even confirmed themselves is diketone free or has low diketone levels...LOL!!! Vendors have got trouble waters ahead if they really think vapers are that stupid and things are going to work that way...especially while other vendors are stepping up to the plate and offering more and more what customers want...lab test!!

 

[englishmick]

Concerned people have the ability to avoid these things right now if that is what they chose to do.

True. But I would argue that they only have this ability today because of the pressure put on the industry in the past.

My living in fear statement is not toward people that are merely concerned, it is toward the people that are calling for the whole industry to oblige their concerns (fears).

I do agree with this. The only way the entire industry would go this way is through regulations, which I would prefer not to see. On the other hand continuing consumer pressure to move from the current meagre handful to a more substantial level seems reasonable.

I know because of this if I even made mention of a breathing issue (which I would if they were there) or had my inhalant script updated he would automatically look at my vaping as the culprit and want to do lung tests.

As far as automatically assigning blame to vaping, I imagine that in the case of an ex-smoker most doctors would look first at a patient's history of smoking. And if they didn't they would be fools.

 

[Jode]

Nobody is trying to force vendors to do anything but provide honest disclosure. I have no problem with vendors who do not wish to test, or feel these chemicals are not a concern and wish to sell liquids with diketones. I have no problem with moving on to vendors who met my needs...so why do people keep insisting i or anyone else is suggesting the opposite when we are not. This is about the vendor providing HONEST DISCLOSURE so we can make our own decision on whether their products met our standards or not and if needed, move along to another vendor who will.

Honest disclosure is quite simple....

"not tested for diketones"

"tested positive for diketones" (provide lab test so customer can assess the numbers for themselves)

"tested negative for diketones" (backed up claim with lab test)

I liked this because honest disclosure sounds like it should be so easy. I just don't really think this would satisfy some, so I have to ask (not of you, but in general) where does this honesty end? Do we keep adding to this honesty as we question some of the other chemicals in flavoring since none of it is approved for inhalation or do we wait till more accurate studies can be done and continue to let the companies decide if they want to cater to the daily concern by testing and disclosing. If it is not there or vender cannot back it up assume it is not tested. Oh wait....Do you want disclosure to make it easier to call out liars?

 

[stevegmu]

VG is water and vegetable oil cooked under high heat and pressure
until the water absorbs the fat creating a new molecule.
lets go with made from fat and water.

regards
mike

Can this new molecule cause weight gain?

 

[Jode]

True. But I would argue that they only have this ability today because of the pressure put on the industry in the past.



I do agree with this. The only way the entire industry would go this way is through regulations, which I would prefer not to see. On the other hand continuing consumer pressure to move from the current meagre handful to a more substantial level seems reasonable.



As far as automatically assigning blame to vaping, I imagine that in the case of an ex-smoker most doctors would look first at a patient's history of smoking. And if they didn't they would be fools.

I think people have always had the ability to have the product tested by a lab or did this just start being true due to the pressure? I am not saying that I don't think further studies and continued interest to make vaping as safe as it can be are not a good thing. Some may think that they should not have to or that it would be silly for the consumer to self test but if they are truly concerned that would be the only true test is seeing results from a lab they hand picked. Again, just my opinion. Yes, I agree there are several companies that are willing to be transparent but I hope it was their choice and not because of pressure. One of the venders I use is transparent as my banner indicates. One other that I use have no tests available yet.

I am not going to stop anybody's crusade for what they believe in. But I will speak my mind on it. I know this works both ways but sometimes I think people need to remind themselves to "be careful what they wish for".

As for my doctor, maybe he wouldn't jump to vaping but since I have not been diagnosed with any lung disorders like COPD from smoking and have been off cigs just shy a day of a year now he would probably assume any recent complaints would be caused from vaping unless a virus or other reason was prevalent.

 

[englishmick]

I liked this because honest disclosure sounds like it should be so easy. I just don't really think this would satisfy some, so I have to ask (not of you, but in general) where does this honesty end? Do we keep adding to this honesty as we question some of the other chemicals in flavoring since none of it is approved for inhalation or do we wait till more accurate studies can be done and continue to let the companies decide if they want to cater to the daily concern by testing and disclosing. If it is not there or vender cannot back it up assume it is not tested. Oh wait....Do you want disclosure to make it easier to call out liars?

Sure, if we asked for tests on every one of the thousands of chemicals used for flavoring, it might become impossible to make juice at a price people could afford. But how about we limit requests for testing to ingredients for there is legitimate cause for concern. I think that threshold has been reached with diketones, though I do understand that's a matter of opinion. I don't think we need to wait until there is scientific certainty.

As far as I am aware nobody has identified whatever chemicals produce strawberry flavor as having possibly caused lung disease, or as being toxic to cells in vitro. If that happened I think there would be a case for us to start asking about their use.

As far as consumer pressure goes the process is somewhat self regulating. Consumer pressure from 20 people would have no meaning. From 50% of vapers it would be overwhelming. It's the marketplace of ideas. You can't persuade a large percentage of consumers to start complaining about any chemical without something to back up your argument. Unless you stipulate that most of us are fools, which I don't think we are.

 

[DeAnna2112]

I liked this because honest disclosure sounds like it should be so easy. I just don't really think this would satisfy some, so I have to ask (not of you, but in general) where does this honesty end? Do we keep adding to this honesty as we question some of the other chemicals in flavoring since none of it is approved for inhalation or do we wait till more accurate studies can be done and continue to let the companies decide if they want to cater to the daily concern by testing and disclosing. If it is not there or vender cannot back it up assume it is not tested. Oh wait....Do you want disclosure to make it easier to call out liars?

I expect vaping vendors to keep up with things and address them as they become a concern just like any other business in any other industry.
Just like some vendors were on top of diketone concerns many years ago, I am confident those same vendors will once again met the needs of customers should new one's arise...and i expect no less from any other vendor if they want my business as well.
Ships sink for a reason, while others sail for a reason. I certainly won't be pulling out my box of tissues for the one's that sink.

 

[Rossum]

Honestly, I and many others are not going to bother spending the money or time testing a vendor's liquid that they don't even care enough to test themselves. I will first buy from a vendor who provides labs showing no diketones, and then and only then will i bother to pay to test it myself to further confirm the honesty of their lab reports.

Seriously, what fool would pay for testing on a vendors product that they have not even confirmed themselves is diketone free or has low diketone levels...LOL!!! Vendors have got trouble waters ahead if they really think vapers are that stupid and things are going to work that way...especially while other vendors are stepping up to the plate and offering more and more what customers want...lab test!!

I realize I'm not representative of the majority of vapers, but there are several flavors that I've been using for over a year, which I would like to keep using, but won't without knowing. Two are from a local B&M, so I'm pretty confident they haven't been tested. This leaves me little choice but to have them tested the next time I buy them. The only real alternative would be to try to replace them with DIY recipes, but then I'd have to have those tested too, to stay true to my pledge. As for the cost, it's just not a big deal to me.

 

[Jman8]

It is far easier for an e-juice vendor to roll the testing cost into the retail price of the product especially if they are selling a decent volume. If it costs them $150 an ejuice flavor and they sell a thousand bottles it costs them 15 cents a bottle to test. And given that we are in a market place where plenty of stuff is selling at over $20 a bottle I don't see this as a problem. And it sure doesn't look like The Plume Room, Bombies, Baker White, Mountain Oak, or anyone else is going out of business because of testing costs. If the FDA comes along and does something stupid that would be an entirely separate expense.

I get the math with 15 cents a bottle. But if vendor has 400 flavors, that would be $60,000 (per batch). I see that as a problem for smaller vendors, and a cost burden for any business. If a business feels it is the right thing to do, then I very much respect that decision. If a business is pressured into doing that, I think consumers ought to take that into consideration and have open debate around do we really need for our vendors to do this? Are there existing vendors willing to do this where we can get what we say we want, without placing that burden on all vendors? If yes, then it would seem like the debate ought to be very short.

14 million flavors? Are you doing DIY or commercial?

14 million flavors refers to what vendor I purchase from says is total amount of combinations they can make with offerings they have. They do flavor shots, so if say they offer a cola flavor, and you could add in one of 25 different flavor shots, that is easy number to calculate. Then you can also add in 2nd flavor shot, such that you now have Vanilla, Raspberry Cola. So calculating the 2nd flavor shot combos with all the 1st flavor shot combos, leads to a fairy high number. Then realize they are doing this with around 400 or so base flavors (I dunno, may be more or less than 400 base flavors).

And because the compounds can occur naturally or arise after the initial flavor is produced, then in reality, all possible combinations would have to be tested, otherwise it is plausible that Vanilla could be compound free, as could Raspberry, as could Cola, but when mixed together, the compounds do arise. Therefore, need to test the Vanilla Raspberry Cola concoction just to be sure, and to appease the people who will say "you said none, but this lab test says some, therefore you are lying and don't care anything about our health. Just shows how greedy you are really."

 

[DarkVapes]

This is madness. Your out of your minds taking this issue this seriously. Its the theory of risk.

I'm not taking it so seriously. I like the idea of transparency and I'm not buying any five pawns liquids anytime soon (which I desperately wanted to). But the idea of doing your own testing on liquids you buy at the store and making your own liquid because of these I think is hysteria.


from my understanding pretty much any juice is going to have da/ap in it. what are you going to pay for lab tests on everything to check for something its not even written in stone will hurt you?

you switched from cigarettes, one of the most deadly toxic things known to man, a minor risk (if it is indeed that) coming with the territory should not be cause for mass panic, ACTION yes not panic

as a sidenote, i'm not saying I necessarily want it in my juice but i suspect anything devoid of da/ap (not sure which is more commonly associated with adding to flavor) will probably taste like ...., unless someone has an example to the contrary

 

[Jman8]

Sure, if we asked for tests on every one of the thousands of chemicals used for flavoring, it might become impossible to make juice at a price people could afford. But how about we limit requests for testing to ingredients for there is legitimate cause for concern. I think that threshold has been reached with diketones, though I do understand that's a matter of opinion. I don't think we need to wait until there is scientific certainty.

The word in red is the only one to me in here that matters. "We" are much bigger than people on this forum, and all people on all vaping forums and even bigger than all people vaping currently or in the next 50 years. The current "we" does include ANTZ. Like it or not, they are included and they do have "legitimate" concerns (from their perspective) on the ingredients in eLiquid. In reality, they will be having direct correspondence with vendors, and expressing their concerns, while of course not mentioning that they are anti-vaping. How is the vendor to discern between one 'reasonable' consumer request and another one?

The idea that "we" can all be on the same page with this issue is foolish. Vendors, in current political reality, are being set up to test for all facets of all ingredients for all possible situations where those ingredients may be used. As I am convinced that there will be more incidents of harm to vapers post FDA deeming / final rule (and willing to wager on this), I'd rather be on the political side that resists or questions the motives for going in this direction that will take the free, under regulated market and strip it down to the likes of BT who will decide on what makes for good, clean, fun vaping.

 

[satchvai]

I think the smart money is on those companies who are proactive about limiting the risk profiles of their products. From both a marketing standpoint and a sustainability one as well. I don't want to be the ABC Juice company who raised the middle finger at the avoidable risks than be in court 10 years from now because I have a class action lawsuit from 10,000 end users of my product who are waiting for lung transplants. I'd rather be a company who took personal responsibility (since corporations are people in the US) and did everything on my end to provide a safe as possible product to my customer. Even if it turns out that the Diketone issue is a huge red herring, I can say I made the necassary efforts to produce a safe and quality product.
Regarding great juices without diketones, there are quite a few out there if you look and I do some DIY and have made some great stuff with TPA DX versions of flavors.

 

[stevegmu]

This is madness. Your out of your minds taking this issue this seriously. Its the theory of risk.

I'm not taking it so seriously. I like the idea of transparency and I'm not buying any five pawns liquids anytime soon (which I desperately wanted to). But the idea of doing your own testing on liquids you buy at the store and making your own liquid because of these I think is hysteria.


from my understanding pretty much any juice is going to have da/ap in it. what are you going to pay for lab tests on everything to check for something its not even written in stone will hurt you?

you switched from cigarettes, one of the most deadly toxic things known to man, a minor risk (if it is indeed that) coming with the territory should not be cause for mass panic, ACTION yes not panic

as a sidenote, i'm not saying I necessarily want it in my juice but i suspect anything devoid of da/ap (not sure which is more commonly associated with adding to flavor) will probably taste like ...., unless someone has an example to the contrary

I didn't dodge the cancer and COPD bullet only to die a long, horrible death gasping for air on a daily basis. I don't have just a few years left to live. I have 40 more- double that, once I move to CR, given the fountain of youth aspects or blonde Czech ladies and Pilsner Urquell...

I mostly vape teas, tobaccos and menthols. All tested and negative, save for trace amounts, for dicetyl. Vaping for me is harm reduction from smoking, not a sport or custard fest. If I want to taste custard I'll eat some...

 

[Jman8]

I mostly vape teas, tobaccos and menthols. All tested and negative, save for trace amounts, for dicetyl. Vaping for me is harm reduction from smoking, not a sport or custard fest. If I want to taste custard I'll eat some...

Ya know, they make tea as a drink now. I heard about it on the news the other day.

 

[stevegmu]

Ya know, they make tea as a drink now. I heard about it on the news the other day.

I'm drinking some right now and have a tank of diacetyl free AIV Cherry Blossom tea to go with it...
I actually don't get the custard thing. Is it just cool like Pluid used to be?

 

[Kurt]

Some quick research shows there are 2 types of extractions. Natural and chemically enhanced. I think the higher priced e-liquids are more than likely using naturally extracted flavors, which cost more, which is why they don't have diacetyl, AP or butyric acid...

The vendors I listed aren't small, bathtub brew operations...

You cannot make this conclusion. Natural extract flavors are often full of diacetyl, which is a naturally occurring compound in diary and some fruits. Plus they can contain a lot of other things I personally would not want to inhale (lipids, proteins, polysaccharides, etc). They cost more because they are more expensive to make than mixing synthetic flavor compounds...or they charge what their market will tolerate, or both.

Plus, the term "natural flavor" does not have the definition most people think. It only means it is a compound that is also found in the food. Isoamyl acetate is a natural banana flavor, but it is synthesized in a lab.

I am a co-author on the Farsalinos DA/AP publication (Kistler). I am also deeply involved with all things chemistry in the e-liquid industry, mostly as a consultant for AEMSA. I can assure you that I know of several companies that do test for DA and AP, and that they have either removed or are in the process of removing these chemicals from their recipes. Some have even developed pure-flavor lines that are verified free of them, as in working with the flavor industry to formulate these flavors.

DA and AP are NOT considered flavor ingredients by the FDA. They are considered adulterants, since they carry a known risk of serious injury or death.

The mechanism of lung damage from DA or AP is not known. We don't know if it is purely a chemical interaction, or, what is being thought now, it triggers an autoimmune response where the body essentially rejects the lung. In many cases of BO followed by lung transplant, the new lung also gets BO and dies, even without further exposure to DA or AP. So it may be a particular biochemistry in a person's body that works with DA to create the disease.

The rat inhalation studies show that not just the lungs are affected, but also mucosa/nasal passages. This is true with AP as well.

Bad news: these are not the only vicinal diketones used in flavorings. There are also hexanediones and heptanediones with vicinal carbonyls, and which also show lung damage in rats.

When asked what the safe amount of DA or AP could be in an e-liquid, all toxicologists that we contacted answered ZERO AMOUNT. NIOSH is for workers that have no choice with exposure if they want to keep their jobs. Defending what is essentially just a luxury flavor in vaping is not the same thing at all. They don't need to be there, there is a known risk, and so they should not be there. I concur with this professional opinion.

The risk of a highly publicized law suit is not worth taking, regardless of its merit or the lack thereof. And companies that I work with simply do not want to sell e-liquids with these compounds, period, end of story. We were blind-sided and horrified when we found out that the term DA-free did not mean that at all in many instances. AT BEST, this meant that consumers were robbed of informed consent. Ideally it should be the flavor companies that do the tests, I agree, but I know of many e-liquid vendors that are doing this themselves so they KNOW the results.

And DA and AP are actually not that easy to test for. The limit of detection and/or quantification should be ideally about 1 ug/mL, but this is hard to create the assay for. Just squirting a bit onto a GC-MS without standard solutions to compare to will tell you they are present, but not accurately how much is present. Accurately measuring relevant levels in e-liquids is VERY hard, since there are a LOT of flavor compounds of similar size to these, and peaks overlap in the flavor matrix. I have seen commercial labs claim they will test these for cheap, but when pushed on their limits of detection do not respond. I have also seen tests from labs stating the compounds are not present, but their LOD is 100 ug/mL or more!

But these compounds are not illegal, and people are free to vape what they like. I mean that. If you want them, have at it. If you don't, you should be able to have the opportunity to buy flavors verified to be free of them. Not just words on a website, which are clearly meaningless, but lab results on finished products. This IS happening right now, and it will continue to increase, I expect. And I would support companies that are doing this. They have spent a LOT of money making sure you are getting products that are as safe as our current understanding allows.

 

[stevegmu]

That makes sense. Perhaps synthetic flavorings are better. How does heat affect these dangerous substances?

 

[zoiDman]

...

When asked what the safe amount of DA or AP could be in an e-liquid, all toxicologists that we contacted answered ZERO AMOUNT. NIOSH is for workers that have no choice with exposure if they want to keep their jobs. Defending what is essentially just a luxury flavor in vaping is not the same thing at all. They don't need to be there, there is a known risk, and so they should not be there. I concur with this professional opinion.

...

Thank You for taking the Time to chime in on this Da / AP topic Kurt.