Is the whole scandal with da and ap overblown? Some numbers inside
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There have not been any rigorous investigations of the acute and long-term health effects of vaping. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence, i.e., perceived change by individual vapers.
So when people say "there's nothing out there" it's because there isn't....not because we are SURE that vaping certain flavorings is safe, but because there simply isn't enough research studies and/or formal reporting going on yet.
The tests that the researchers from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill did, showed absolutely NO PROBLEMS with VG, PG, or nicotine. So that was good news!
However, there were definitely problems with certain flavorings on cell viability, proliferation, and calcium signaling in airway epithelia, and I suspect that is why that researcher is doing further studies, as are other researchers like Dr. F. (who did indeed note decreased FEV1 on lung function tests after vaping diketones).
So, there is definitely CONCERN over many of the flavorings. And I do believe there is cause for that.
Otherwise, I think vaping is pretty darn safe, but I think SOME of the flavorings are going to show problematic results. I certainly don't blame vapers who want to vape as safely as possible, and we have a bit of research to show that VG/PG with nicotine is the safest way to vape.
Also, since AP and DA have been shown to be "concerning" in eliquids, many of us see no reason to use them since they are entirely avoidable.
Nothing at all to do with "living in fear", rather more like living with a consciousness about what we want to put in our bodies. (Since some of us also don't use processed foods, sugar, HFCs, etc. either).As for lung fuction tests, personally, I have rarely seen a lung function test administered as part of a regular yearly physical exam. PFTs are not normally a part of physical unless person is suspected of having asthma or is experiencing breathing problems or already has a lung condition........or right before major surgery because the anesthesiologist orders it.
its hard to do research and study's when you do not have
a base of affected individuals to do research and study's on.
regards
mike
Concern over diacetyl has been around for several years now, enough that many vendors moved away from diacetyl already. Realization that the substitutes are likely to be just as troublesome is more recent.
Exactly, at what point do you tell yourself DA etc bad but this new reformulated free of all bad stuff that has never been tested for anything is going to make me feel so much safer "healthier ?" and now that I no longer have to worry I'm going to try a sub tank with TC and go through juice like no tomorrow ?
Then why do you waste your time posting here if there is no point to it?
I was trying to make a point about the cost for consumers to test all their own juices. Take how many bottles of juice have you bought and then tack on the cost for you to test each bottle yourself. The whole idea of a consumer paying to test their own bottles at this point is ludicrous. I would love to have access to an inexpensive reliable testing method for home use. But I haven't seen it yet.
You might wanna start here.
Toxicology Tutorials: college-level introductions to the science of toxicology
Sometimes sparkky1 it's hard to tell whether you are trying to be helpful or nasty. I do have to thank you though. I had no idea that people were harvesting beaver behinds. What an interesting job interview that must have been.
Helpful of course, my # 1 priority has always been to thank god for vaping and how much it has impacted my life in a positive way being tar free, I can do things I haven't been able to do in years without exhaustion / wheezing / smelling like ars, have you kissed a smoker lately ? I feel more than compelled to spread the joy to smokers to help them quite and stay quite for good.
As for the testing: I'm not to sure you could use the beer testing kits for e liquid (which are the only reasonably priced ones) to test for DA, would it be the same as a lab test ? but would you be able to also test for AP as well or just leave that one out ?
Cool. I'm also grateful for vaping after spending my life in a cloud of smoke. Interesting avenue of thought. I wonder if we'll see something like this kit for e-juice as the industry continues to evolve.
TK2300 Beer Analysis Sample Kit | White Labs
How To Test For Diacetyl In Your Beer | Beer Brewing and Wine Making Blog
There have not been any rigorous investigations of the acute and long-term health effects of vaping. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence, i.e., perceived change by individual vapers.
So when people say "there's nothing out there" it's because there isn't....not because we are SURE that vaping certain flavorings is safe, but because there simply isn't enough research studies and/or formal reporting going on yet.
The tests that the researchers from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill did, showed absolutely NO PROBLEMS with VG, PG, or nicotine. So that was good news!
However, there were definitely problems with certain flavorings on cell viability, proliferation, and calcium signaling in airway epithelia, and I suspect that is why that researcher is doing further studies, as are other researchers like Dr. F. (who did indeed note decreased FEV1 on lung function tests after vaping diketones).
So, there is definitely CONCERN over many of the flavorings. And I do believe there is cause for that.
Otherwise, I think vaping is pretty darn safe, but I think SOME of the flavorings are going to show problematic results. I certainly don't blame vapers who want to vape as safely as possible, and we have a bit of research to show that VG/PG with nicotine is the safest way to vape.
Also, since AP and DA have been shown to be "concerning" in eliquids, many of us see no reason to use them since they are entirely avoidable.
As for lung fuction tests, personally, I have rarely seen a lung function test administered as part of a regular yearly physical exam. PFTs are not normally a part of physical unless person is suspected of having asthma or is experiencing breathing problems or already has a lung condition........or right before major surgery because the anesthesiologist orders it.
As I have said before in other threads....I agree with you on many things and I have no argument with anybody that is wanting to know this information for themselves. I am getting the feeling that you may be reading thoughts into my posts that I simply do not have. I am just giving my opinion that at this time we do not know enough about these chemical either way and so although I would never tell anybody that they should or should not be concerned enough to do their own testing, I DO feel that is is being overblown at this point. My living in fear statement is not toward people that are merely concerned, it is toward the people that are calling for the whole industry to oblige their concerns (fears). Concerned people have the ability to avoid these things right now if that is what they chose to do. If a vender that they have to have does not offer tested results they can have it test themselves or move onto one that does. It is the statements that call for all venders to disclose or suffer shunning that make me feel this way. You may be concerned over them and I may not be and with no evidence on either side I think it should be up to the person with the concern to look out for it. Just as it is up to the person with a severe peanut allergy to avoid peanuts and not up to the food industry to rid of it because it is of concern to some.
I didn't intend to imply that annuals included lung function test, but part of the purpose of an annual exam is to bring up concerns with your doctor so that would lead to testing if there was complaints of breathlessness, coughing or any other problems that could be related to vaping. I happen to have a doctor that is some place in between on the whole vaping thing. He of course had been telling me to quit (and we tried many ways) for years and is so happy that I have but he is not 100% on board with my vaping either even though he has seen a tremendous improvement. I know because of this if I even made mention of a breathing issue (which I would if they were there) or had my inhalant script updated he would automatically look at my vaping as the culprit and want to do lung tests. This is what I mean. Not that lung tests are done for no reason. I could be wrong, there could be hundreds of doctors willing to keep quiet about decreased lung function in their vaping patients, but I don't see that.
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Ok I getcha. It seemed as if you were saying that smoking makes more sense because it is cheaper. I must say however, if I was concerned about this area I would first seek out a vender that already provided this testing, not expect one that doesn't feel it is time to do so yet to do it for me. If I just had to have that juice from a vender that did not provide it, well then I have a choice, test myself or move on. Maybe some day a home test kit will be available or a non issue, who knows? I hope you know I was not calling you silly, I just didn't understand your comment.
Ok I getcha. It seemed as if you were saying that smoking makes more sense because it is cheaper. I must say however, if I was concerned about this area I would first seek out a vender that already provided this testing, not expect one that doesn't feel it is time to do so yet to do it for me. If I just had to have that juice from a vender that did not provide it, well then I have a choice, test myself or move on. Maybe some day a home test kit will be available or a non issue, who knows? I hope you know I was not calling you silly, I just didn't understand your comment.
I did take it that way for a second and then I remembered it's always a good idea to vape during these discussions
. It is a difficult issue with a lot of angles and not getting the visual cues we are used to when we are talking face to face with people can make things more challenging.
I feel sorry for people who let their "appetites" rule their lives..... pleasures first rather than overall well-being.
What I am seeing is the high obesity, diabetes, heart disease and other diseases of lifestyle being "epidemic" nowadays and it explains the outcome of the "hedonist approach" to life.
If you want to see people's lives being *ruled*, just look at what debilitating "diseases of lifestyle" in middle and old age do to them.
I live in an area where people say they don't want fear to rule their lives, but it's one of the unhealthiest towns I've ever lived in, I swim every day in summer months for 11 years and despite that we have a wonderful community olympic sized pool, with an adult swim (meaning you have pool to yourself without kids jumping all over the place) there are exactly 6-7 people who show up and this is going on 11 years.
Yet when I walk around the stores here I see nothing but overweight and sick people and our local rates for diabetes, obesity, heart disease, high cholesterol, etc. are quite high. I talk to people and they think it's "silly" to worry about stuff. Processed foods, foods with high sugar contents and HFCs........I can only say they "look the part."
IMHO, having some discipline over what you put into your body isn't "allowing fear to rule your life." It's more about having some self respect and being able to control one's appetites.
In many ways I see the same thing playing out with custards with DA and AP....it may be similar to people who say they can't or wont eat more salads and fruit and instead they go for the greasy burgers, fried foods, Lil Debbies, soda pop, donuts, and "frozen dinner in a bag" type products, etc. To them, the latter just "taste better". (Or so they tell me.
First response: So, the nicotine and vaping part is totally health conscious, but the taste part is bad / unhealthy?
Second response: Your preaching this to ex-smokers.
Third response: What goes into a person's mouth doesn't make him unclean. It's what comes out of the mouth that makes a person unclean.
No it is not a fat, which is a long chain saturated trigyceride. VG is a tri-alcohol, but it is MADE from hydrolysis of fats and/or plant oils. But it is not even remotely a fat.
VG is water and vegetable oil cooked under high heat and pressure
until the water absorbs the fat creating a new molecule.
lets go with made from fat and water.
regards
mike
Nobody is trying to force vendors to do anything but provide honest disclosure. I have no problem with vendors who do not wish to test, or feel these chemicals are not a concern and wish to sell liquids with diketones. I have no problem with moving on to vendors who met my needs...so why do people keep insisting i or anyone else is suggesting the opposite when we are not. This is about the vendor providing HONEST DISCLOSURE so we can make our own decision on whether their products met our standards or not and if needed, move along to another vendor who will.
Honest disclosure is quite simple....
"not tested for diketones"
"tested positive for diketones" (provide lab test so customer can assess the numbers for themselves)
"tested negative for diketones" (backed up claim with lab test)
Honest disclosure is quite simple....
"not tested for diketones"
"tested positive for diketones" (provide lab test so customer can assess the numbers for themselves)
"tested negative for diketones" (backed up claim with lab test)
So, there is definitely CONCERN over many of the flavorings. And I do believe there is cause for that.
Otherwise, I think vaping is pretty darn safe, but I think SOME of the flavorings are going to show problematic results. I certainly don't blame vapers who want to vape as safely as possible, and we have a bit of research to show that VG/PG with nicotine is the safest way to vape.
Also, since AP and DA have been shown to be "concerning" in eliquids, many of us see no reason to use them since they are entirely avoidable.
*Snipped (to address the CONCERN)
The concern is legitimate.
And it is also trumped up / overblown, at this time.
It can be both.
All the other ingredients in vaping (literally all of them) are a concern to at least some people, some of the time. I don't see that changing anytime in the next 1000 years.
Formaldehyde from vaping is a concern, some may say it is overblown. I would think a majority of vapers would say it is overblown.
The individual concern is on the individual. The individual can take reasonable steps to address this personal concern. IMO, this is at the core of the debate. The politics are surrounding the core, and are mostly to all about what can others do, or what should others be doing, today to appease the individual's concern, so the individual can have (the illusion of) less worry.
It would be somewhere between wonderful and ideal if the entire industry was on the same page in addressing this (or any) concern that comes up from a segment of the vaping community. In a (wonderful and ideal) free market, there would be a great supply of all types of vaping products, with all sorts of disclosure/transparency, and all at a low, or reasonable, cost that allows for sellers to make a great living. The more sellers, and options, the merrier.
The less ideal, nay worst case scenario, would be to have a segment of the vaping community give into ANTZ rhetoric (yeah you heard me) and wish all vendors who are not conforming to their individual specific concerns, go out of business, so that hopefully all that is left are those that are getting closer to the ideal. What that new ideal actually looks like, no one would really know, but I'm sure many think it will be akin to the wonderful/ideal free market, when in reality, it would likely be closer to current market for combustibles, where 5 to 10 companies are dictating all that happens and lobbying to address ANTZ rhetoric, just to stay afloat and to make profit.
Pushing vendors to appease those who deem themselves "most concerned with public health" is looking on p. 4 of the ANTZ playbook, and proceeding accordingly. Then denying the ANTZ part of the equation and hiding behind the false notion of "concern for all."
As I've said before, if you are individual who is truly concerned, right now, your #1 consideration going forward would be to do your own testing, and proceed accordingly, participating in what is arguably close to ideal free market in the current vaping economy. When you leave that option off the table, it tells me, and all of us who are paying attention, that you rather preach irresponsibility and passing the buck, over some notion of REASONABLE CONCERN.
I did take it that way for a second and then I remembered it's always a good idea to vape during these discussions
It sure is. I am severe/profound hard of hearing (laymen terms pretty deaf) so voice reflection ( I think it is called this, when voice rises and falls to convey emotion) gets lost on me even in face to face. And although I had much better hearing in high school years (more then a few years back) my language/writing skills suffered. I explain this because I understand that I choose the wrong words to say what I am feeling at times despite trying to be careful not to offend.
I do get the part that you feel it would be unreasonable for a consumer to test given the fact that they may have several juices to test. I must say I still disagree with you on this, unless said person just discovered their position after buying a ton of juice blindly, I doubt they would buy many liquids based on puffed up sales claims instead of solid results since that is what they are asking for in retrospect. I do have dozens of bottles of juice, so yes, thank goodness I am not that worried or I would have an expense on my hand. Not that it really matters to you, but I only purchase from two different venders. I do this because I took the time to satisfy my itch of what I expected of their products. If somebody let me try their liquid and I wanted to add a vender to my collection I would do the same amount of research on them as I did on my current favs regardless of the claims they may make on their sales page. Did I start right off doing things this way? No of course not .I didn't have the knowledge I have now and I may not do things the same way as I do today a year from now because of what I learn in between. I guess what I am saying is that we are not being forced to vape any product and have always had the choice to do our own investigating to a level that satisfy our own itches. Oh and if I was one that said, heck this is too much to figure out, I might as well smoke.... that is my choice too. Last time I looked at a pack of butts there were warnings, but I would have to do some research to find out what was in them, same goes for many items that list basic ingredients verses all the chemicals that make up each flavor agent.
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