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Madvapes is titrating for nicotine!

Discussion in 'QC Research and Testing' started by Kurt, Jan 8, 2012.

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  1. Kurt

    Kurt Quantum Vapyre ECF Veteran

    Sep 16, 2009
    Big props to Madvapes for posting the results of this study:

    They test a 24 mg liquid with the BTB indicator kit and with a pH meter. Only criticism is that they are claiming more precision (4 significant figures) than they can, since the acid is 0.17 N (2 significant figures). But they do show that the kit when used properly does give quite reasonable results.

    I had nothing to do with this study, which is good, since it means vendors are starting to take the initiative. Kudos, Madvapes!! :thumbs:
  2. bmwjen

    bmwjen Reviewer / Blogger Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 2, 2011
    When i met the madvapes boys in vegas at vapefest, i knew they were good people!!

    Thanks again guys!

    sent from my always glamorous Android using Tapatalk
  3. ogmios

    ogmios Full Member

    Jan 7, 2012
    Philly, PA
    I'm completely new here, but this is great news to hear, especially since I just read about the BE incident last night. Had me a bit worried about quality control, so madvapes will be getting my business.
  4. AzPlumber

    AzPlumber Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 28, 2011
    Yeah I read through the test results last night also. Adam did a great job explaining how the test works. He also demonstrated some variables the average vapor might run into and how it may or may not effect the out come. Nice Job MadVapes.
  5. Uselessdreamer1

    Uselessdreamer1 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 29, 2009
    Where did you find the test results? I think id like to read about this!

    Way to go madvapes!
  6. AzPlumber

    AzPlumber Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 28, 2011
    Did you try the link in Kurts (OP) post or you can find it on Madvapes site in the blog section
  7. bobdog

    bobdog Full Member

    Dec 31, 2011
    Interesting study. I think it should be stickied somewhere if hasn't been already. Their protocol and methods were good and even though no stats were done on the results, it appears their conclusions are sound. My question pertains to their choice of VG. Would the results be the same for PG? Or how about a VG/PG mix of say 50:50? Good work Madvapes!
  8. AFKing

    AFKing Moved On

    Apr 20, 2011
    Charlotte, NC

    That will be a part of our next round of tests. We will post the results once completed. We suspect that the test will hold up as accurate for both VG and PG as well as a 50/50 mix, but then again assumptions are never good so we will look to prove it.

  9. oldsoldier

    oldsoldier Retired ECF Forum Manager Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Dec 17, 2010
    Lurking in the shadows
    This is just a personal thank you to Hoog and Adam for stepping up to the plate.

    When this specific sub forum was created Roly and I had hopes that our suppliers would see it and do just as MadVapes has done.
  10. DaveP

    DaveP PV Master & Musician ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    May 22, 2010
    Central GA
    I'm a Madvapes fan. They have been solid in their relationship to me as a customer. The one mis-pick in a particular shipment was sent with apologies the next day after I advised them of the incorrect item.

    I'm not surprised that they are taking a professional approach in the mixing of their juice. Kudos to Madvapes!
  11. markfm

    markfm Aussie Pup Wrangler Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Has Madvapes come up with thoughts, then, on how often they will test things? A check on all nic base, and/or on each larger batch of final eliquid (and if the latter, need to benchmark for any effects of the flavorinigs used)? It appears a good benchmark has been established, understanding the methodology, next would come the plan on its intended application to product.

    Nice job!
  12. hoogie76

    hoogie76 Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Aug 1, 2009
    Charlotte, NC
    Actually the top paragraph in our testing is a bit mis-leading as it implies this is the only testing we do. We send our nic batches out for testing to a lab but to be able to verify before a lab test is awesome.. When Adam first starting doing some testing with the test kit, the results were not consistent so we wanted to see why and how to overcome the inconsistencies in results.

    What we do now with our nic is make 5 to 10 gallon batches of 300mg and store these in carboys in a commercial fridge. We send samples of this out for testing. From the 10 gallon batches we make wholesale orders of up to 150mg and on the retail side we use a formula chart and and syringes to add nic to each bottle of liquid we make. The biggest factor affecting variability of the nic in say a 50ml bottle of e-liquid is the amount of pre-mixed 0mg liquid base that is added and may vary up to a few mls in a 50ml bottle. With using the 300mg nic we can always get within a 1-2% tolerance in nic variations on 50ml and under bottles.

  13. markfm

    markfm Aussie Pup Wrangler Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Excellent information :)

    It sounds like, essentially, you might keep the outside lab test, plus do your own internally, so that you can check for consistency, know just what that 5 or 10 gal intermediate nic is at.

    Any thoughts on maybe using the internal test, with the Blue, periodically as you cycle through a given 5 or 10 gal carboy, to make sure you haven't run into any separation issues, any voids or hot spots that weren't picked up on the initial check?

    (What you're doing sounds super, just curious to see if there is a practical extension.)

  14. hoogie76

    hoogie76 Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Aug 1, 2009
    Charlotte, NC
    Actually, yes, we have run into hotspots, especially with VG based nic. We take the carboys out occasional as shake, rotate, etc to minimize seperation. We will always continue to send out our 300mg for testing but what the self test kit is great for is when we do orders of 150mg or less. We can quick test to make sure our mix is right before we ship kg bottles to other manufacturers.

  15. markfm

    markfm Aussie Pup Wrangler Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    It sounds like you're doing a nice job on this, excellent :)
  16. terrilg70

    terrilg70 Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 29, 2011
    keep up the great work. Itis nice to know you are looking after us.
  17. Str8V8ping

    Str8V8ping Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 10, 2011
    Now if they can only make all good tasting juice lol . I love madvapes and order from them all the time but not for there juice .Some i can vape but others eh .Props for the testing though :) . You guys even with the above opinions are one of the best vendors there is imo
  18. Kurt

    Kurt Quantum Vapyre ECF Veteran

    Sep 16, 2009
    Most excellent job, Adam and Hoogie! I definitely like the two-stage testing protocol. Will keep people safe and minimize big problems, for sure.

    From what you are saying, it sounds like hot spots can arise in VG even after full mixing. Is this true? I had heard this as a rumor, but have not seen concrete evidence as yet.

    Also, and perhaps I'm being picky, but watch those sig figs. If you are using 0.12 N H2SO4, or some other 2 sig fig concentration, you can only say you measure 2 sig figs in the end for nic. So 24 mg, not mg.

    Another request: can you measure the density of any of these unflavored nic-liquids? I have an interest in this in terms of ways to calculate nic easily, but the density I measured from one known-composition liquid is higher than either the PG or the nic. trying to understand why and if this might be important in when making liquids directly in the retail bottles. PM me if you like for details.

    Fantastic work, guys! You are helping to raise all ships! Salute! :)
  19. salemgold

    salemgold ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jul 5, 2010
    South Carolina
    Kudos to Madvapes for stepping up to the plate and doing the right thing :)
  20. AFKing

    AFKing Moved On

    Apr 20, 2011
    Charlotte, NC

    We have experienced some "hot spots" but mostly in testing recently made samples. We learned from test results that VG requires some additional mixing to have accurate consistant results. So with that in mind we do periodically re-mix our nicotine batches to ensure that there is no separation. As of now I have not seen any separation since we started mixing longer.

    I will remember to watch out for my significant digits. Thanks.

    For a density test would you like to use specific gravity as a method to test for that? That could be done pretty easily.

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