Houston, we have a problem...BE nic titration results

[Quick1]

But don't forget the instances of him selling 48mg as 100mg. We don't know how many of those are out there and that could have been greed.

Only hard evidence I've heard is some liquid nic ordered from BE was received at very different concentrations than ordered and labeled. That previous emails from customers were ignored.

I got the impression that BE was undercutting everyone else on price? What if a competitor paid one of those minimum wage people in the distribution center a couple of hundred thousand to screw up a batch or two? Is that impossible? Just sayin there are a lot of conclusions being drawn from supposition.

So he didn't reply to emails about the juice. Maybe he just figured it wasn't a big problem and didn't really care. We got lots of vendors with atrocious customer service. So it turns out there was a real problem and now it's really ugly. If there is any chance of any legal action the LAST thing counsel would suggest would be to engage on an open forum until everything has been fully diagnosed and characterized. Last thing you would do is go address the lynch mob even if you were totally innocent.

 

[Iffy]

Greetings forum members... Thank you,

Nick, seriously, it's admirable sticking up for your friend and kudos for da big balls.

BUT...

Curriculum vitae... that's an outright insult! You need to take notes while reading the thread.
Sabotage... you lose points. See notes suggestion.
Evidence integrity/source of material... you expect credibility while questioning ours?
No medical incidents... very fortunate!
Unemployed or underemployed... pleeease... more lost points due to thrashing an ol' straw man.
Recall... finally, after two months of non-response!
Oh, don't forget the under nic ba$e$!

Now... you were saying...?

 

[rkayw]

First, there is a procedure in place (and posted to this forum in the rules section) that outlines the simple steps a vendor has to take in order to be able to post to the forum.

Second no one has hindered him from following those guidelines and participating in any discussion. If there is an issue with the account, he could simply contact Misty (the mod in charge of vendors) and get it sorted out.

Also, I would point out, that Gourmet Vapor, a company he holds an interest in was represented on this forum until recently when they were removed over this issue.

That being said, there may be other issues that need to be sorted out... I have no idea as I do not cover vendors in my duties. But Brad is not being held hostage. He has to adhere to the same rules as every other vendor. And there are quite a few vendors around here who post very very often.

I'm fairly sure Gourmet Vapor was never a supplier here? He had plenty of opportunity to join, like I said in my other post. He seems to have a pattern of denial, ignoring what he doesn't want to deal with.

GoodDog, based on what Cozz said in his post about them, sounds like they (GV) was a supplier here. IDK 100% for sure though.

 

[Prettycat191]

I don't think this is a case of greed in that he was purposefully sending incorrect batches. MAYBE there was greed in his ignoring the issue, but I believe that he may have just been dumbfounded. I can even understand how he was skeptical until the results came out, since only one person's home test showed an insanely high amount. I don't think greed is a supportable argument in this case, but of course this is just my humble opinion.

Mislabeling and mixing errors obviously occurred, but that doesn't automatically mean that he was doing anything actually wrong, just not being careful enough. We can argue that the fact that he wasn't being careful enough was wrong, but we ALL mess up sometimes. Even perfectionists like me.

I am really happy to see that the more recent batch did test correctly; though I think he made a stupid move by not using batch numbers anymore.

 

[kinabaloo]

Don't get me wrong, I am outraged; just not sure what we are trying to achieve. If yu employ the homeless - that's great in a way - but make sure they know what they are doing; this is dangerous chemcals, not soup.

We are all right in a way. It's really hard to call; and I guess that's why l lean towards giving it time, give a bit of slack. The truth will out soon enough. Give the guy a chance to speak at least; give it time for thought and seeing what happens. There is no rush now; we have the recall and rethink.

It's hard to switch off because it really is a finely balanced state; the thing is, we can't decide really now, we gotta give it some time.

That Brad should be able to respond - I stick my neck out for that.

That he desrves another chance - not at all sure; I;ll go with the soncensus.

 

[Katya]

Kinabaloo, you really need to get some sleep now!

For what it's worth, I agree with you.

 

[rkayw]

I'm not convinced any slack has been earned yet. Just sayin.

Some ppl you give an inch, they try to take a mile. He tried to take the whole damn highway without using turn signals from the get go.

I think I need to see more test results, good or bad. Hopefully good ones.

And also accountable solid verifiable action from him. (Him holding a big sale at GV right now is not IMO doing that, knowing GV uses BE nic.)

Slack...nah. Not yet. When the truth does fully come out...maybe. Probably.

Don't rush us or hush us.

 

[kinabaloo]

don't know, really. t could go either way. Sun is up, and Im off to dreanland

 

[grazia15]

Well I did not receive the recall email, even though I have bought nic from BE. I contacted Brad and he kindly asked me to ship the bottle and he would refund whatever shipping costs I had shipping from Brazil.

I am still sending a small sample to Kurt for further testing on the nic level. I have some bottles mixed with this BE nic and won't touch them untill he has the results, as it smells really strong and it's too yellow for only 36mg VG.

Kurt, since I am shipping this sample on a small box and there is still room available, I included a small 'thank you' gift! Hope you like it!

Thank you!

 

[Kurt]

Gracias, grazia! This one does sound suspect. 36 mg BE should be almost as colorless as water and very little smell. I'll PM you when I get it. Thanks again!

 

[AddyTude]

I want to say Thank you to Kurt for spending your own time to help out this community.

I am a new member, and just vaping a little over two months. I STILL have leaky attys (juiced up fingers)...still occasionally inhale juice...AND I have been trying DIY juices (the whole reason I gave vaping a shot!). I am exactly the customer this could have affected. My first online purchases were from GV, based on info I found in this and other forums. I purchased pre-mixed flavors and unflavored nicotine (not bulk - 24mg). I will also say that two of the four bottles I ordered are sitting on my desk to this day...virtually untouched. I thought it was just my personal preference, now I am not so sure. Funny thing is, my online cart on their site (GV) is loaded right now...I got distracted and didn't complete my order the other day, and now I am glad about that.

in light of the GV sale going on - and the fact that Brad himself posted the coupon code...I don't buy the "remorse act". I also think that it was incredibly poor taste for Nick to post the things he did without any understanding at all about the ramifications of the situation.
Good people sometimes do bad things, make mistakes, etc. Part of deserving another chance is making things right. Yes, in some respects it appeared that Brad was trying...and in the same breath there are actions that say otherwise. After spending 3+ hours reading this thread in entirety, it appears that that is a reoccurring issue with The CEO of BE. This community was more than generous in extending a hand to Brad to first alert, and then help him get to the bottom of the issue. At first, he blatantly ignored, and when that couldn't last, he denied. When that couldn't last, he ridiculed. When that couldn't last he talked himself up into some grandiose CEO...and so on and so forth. He has been dragged, kicking and screaming into making each and every concession....and as mentioned...to this point in time - where he is posting a coupon code yesterday/today on Facebook...(I also got the email) Guess what...with his track record at this point, he couldn't give me anything associated with his name for free.

As far as I am concerned, he is still earning the lack of trust.

This thread has had me run through an entire gamut of emotions...at one point I was even feeling sorry for him, thinking he made one mistake in an epic proportion. But the truth is, he made many epic mistakes. He also made efforts to deflect them.
Coupon posting - coupled with creepy "law enforcement" endorsement....thanks but no thanks.

Set the auto-pilot to self destruct.
So long, and thanks for all the fish.

Now I know emphatically know what to look for in a deserving vendor in this budding industry.

If my post is out of line, I apologize. I appreciate this forum, and have come to really value the opinions and dedication of a lot of the members here...and don't appreciate the "cash-in" mentality that I feel The CEO has displayed REPEATEDLY, in his own communications.

 

[Fernand]

With regard to this nicotine mishap, important points have been made. We all agree they needed to be made. Quality and Quality Control are vital, and so is it for vendors to realize that the sheep can very quickly turn into a mob with torches and pitchforks if they feel abused. We've discovered the power loose groups like ours can wield, and have (actually) already outlined some of the standards we expect vendors to meet with regard to hazardous stuff. There probably isn't a vape vendor on the planet who hasn't heard about it by now. Hopefully everyone understands that casually reselling contaminated cartos, for instance, or exploding batteries, won't fly either, because we expect people to inspect, and exercise DUE DILIGENCE on, the goods they make a profit with. And we're refining nicotine assaying to make it as commonplace as the ohmmeter. All that in just over a week. Much more effective than any committee or agency could ever DREAM of being. It might be a good time to spell out what we expect from vendors with regard to all the other materials and services we buy from them.

Brad was careless and didn't react sensibly after it came to light. But of those who pleasure themselves with indignation, and go on (and on) about his sins and character, as if he had deliberately poisoned the occupants of the World Trade Center, or sold crack to children, at unfair prices yet, I'd ask if you've ever imagined yourself in his shoes. If you haven't, don't you think you should? If you were diluting and selling nicotine, are you certain -- as certain as Brad was -- that a serious mistake couldn't possibly happen on your watch?

 

[AddyTude]

...... I'd ask if you've ever imagined yourself in his shoes. If you haven't, don't you think you should? If you were diluting and selling nicotine, are you certain -- as certain as Brad was -- that a serious mistake couldn't possibly happen on your watch?

Actually I did, which is why I felt for him, briefly.
Then I realized, if it were my product/reputation/company/livelihood on the line, you could safely bet the discovery process would have started with the emails in September. As we saw, the stakes didn't stop there. Safety is not an indulgent hypothetical. Misrepresenting the "manufacturing" conditions, attempting to deceive with "independent lab results" = premeditated denial of responsibility, and intent to harm.

To me, integrity in actions is everything. Does that mean it is not possible to make a mistake .... no. But I don't assume I am above making mistakes. And really, if all else failed, I certainly would think long and hard about how my actions could be perceived in the aftermath.

All of this is fine and dandy, but the truth of it is this...I would not be in his shoes. I take pride in myself and my work. I truly want to do a good job in the things that I choose to spend my time on. I use feedback from others to gauge my success, especially if my success is tied to the satisfaction of others. I try to learn from mistakes made by me and others. I believe in customer service. I don't offer a 50% discount in the tagline of my denial email.

Also for the record, I am not pleasuring myself with indignation. I happened to feel affected, as a previous customer of his.
Perhaps the comments on his character/sins will subside when he deliberately does something in the character of someone who shows empathy for a situation that only snowballed by his own continued indignation.

The ideas I have alluded to, aren't rocket science. We all know what actions he could have taken to make this right. And you know what? So did he.

 

[AddyTude]

I do want to add, that I see your point. My overwhelming desire to post my feelings probably didn't move the situation further along, in the spirit of improving E-cigs in general, and for that I do apologize.

I guess I felt that to move forward, it is best not to try and sweep responsibility and accountability aside, when it appears that the lessons haven't been learned by those responsible.
In the bigger scheme of things, it is probably a moot point. Now there is a much bigger interest by other in getting it right...and that is progress.
So I am truly sorry for beating it into a pulp....again. Please

 

[Switched]

Thanks Coz for clearing that up. I was curious as to why he was unable to post here as I have seen another vendor for sure maybe two post in this thread.

Can;t the guy be allowed to speak on this thread at least. Surely it is only fair to allow a defence.

No matter what one feels, I think he should have the right to speak.

Personally I'd go further; we asked for a recall and he did that. Late, yes; but it is in place now. Let's try to be constructive.

There's much evidence of faulty procedures, but not of greed or malice. I see this as an important point.

Let's try to go forward, for the good of the whole community; this is not the important battle. Nor should it even be a battle now; we don't shoot at people with white flags, do we; let's be fair.

Will it work out well in the end? Who knows; but I think that overall it is worth a try.

All he has to do is register as a supplier. Once upon a time this service was free, now a small $50 fee per year is required. I am an offline manufacturer and had to do this before I was allowed to sell my wares to the vendors that sell my product. I was not allowed to operate incognito so to speak. Transparency comes to mind.

When I first heard of BE 20 some odd months ago I thought they were a "chemical company". I never ordered any liquid from them, because I didn't feel comfortable sourcing my liquid from a "chemical company". I was provided with reputable vendor for such needs and one that shipped to Canada.

 

[Switched]

Like Cozzicon said, all Brad would have to do is follow the rules here and he could post in this thread all he wants. He chose not to become a forum supplier even though many of his customers were a direct result of this forum. That's one reason I chose not to buy from any of his 3 companies. It just irritated me that he prospered from this forum but wouldn't pay the small fee to become a supplier here.

+1 GoodDog, my sentiments exactly

 

[Switched]

You might be right. Though I see still error of judgement, not greed. But I take your point; it has some validity.

But let's at least hear from the other side. Some will never forgive and I wouldn't question that. Personally I wuld give another chance, but don't expect many to feel the same; but I do think it right that BE has a chance to reply.

After all, there is no way that the forums could admit BE at the moment; the point is to allow access to respond to the current issue. I would be outraged if BE was siuddenly a forum accepted member! I might acceot it a few months on, but now that would be impossible. But let the guy speak !

I think all manner of mistakes were made; it almost couldn't be worse. But I really don't see grred as the motive; and that's why I feel, let's try to start over.

+++

This is the first such major incident. If you want to see it that way, let's be lenient this one time. If it happens again, no matter who, we can be tougher. In a strange way, a lot of good has come from this, and hopefully it almost could't happen again; for the test kit is out there now and a whole lot of people are wiser, and can be in the know; future problems will be picked up much sooner.

I do not know how one would quantify greed, perhaps he was not greedy but owning a company and 2 distribution centres that we know of (nothing wrong with that) <---- good business practice.

However, because BE couldn't in all reality sell flavoured liquid "we are a chemical company" themselves formed two subsidiary companies to do so, nothing wrong with that either. The problem with this operation is no third party was involved in testing the liquid. The infrastructure of BE did permit for it, but would prove to be very expensive since expenditures came from the same source as far as what we know for now. Let me explain...

What should have transpired as explained earlier with traceability from cradle to grave. If his 3 companies came under a different umbrella this could have been avoided because GV and HE would have carried out their own testing or should have, independent of BE and compared it against BE's COA. This general testing goes into overhead, yes it decreases the profit margin somewhat, but hey that is the cost of doing business. As we know this was not carried out because the 3 companies come under the same entity.

A business set up in this way would see:

• BE selling to his distribution centres (GV and HE) at retail rates;
• the cost of overhead of both companies (for testing) is added to BE's overhead;
• the profit margins of the distribution centres is kept to a minimum;
• because all 3 business are owned by the same individual, the lack of profitability of his distribution centres, reduces BE's profit margin to the benefit of paying less taxes on capital income for all 3 companies but especially BE; and
• this is a sound business practice done by many in business. Nothing wrong with it nor is it unethical = smart business practice.

Was there greed involved, I would have to say yes, because anyone who as a business model set up (like hypothetically) seen here is all about growth, a true form of Capitalism and the American dream.

In Brad's defense did he set out to hurt anyone? No, but his business practices need to be refined if he is going to operate under the model described above.

What transpired here (my beliefs) is that he cut corners (facts in evidence) to maintain/increase his profit margin. That = greed IMO. That being said, should he have had the proper infrastructure in place to operate in this fashion this whole situation would have been a non issue. Regardless of is it greed or poor business practice, the results are the same. All three companies have loss consumer confidence and IMO is going to cost BE more in the long run, than if the business was set up and operating as it should have been from the get go.

Money is a short lived but extremely powerful motivator, that combined with bad business decisions and practices have led BE to where they find themselves today. There reluctance to admit there could have been a problem until publicly challenged, leaves a lot of unanswered questions and IMO indicates that the bottom line was more important than consumer safety, which in turn IMMHO = greed, intentional or not.

 

[Switched]

Honestly, if so, then you must assume that he knew what concentration eliquids he was selling and that he was doing some kind of testing. I seriously doubt that. Sloppiness is all I see.

But I don't know. Nobody does.

A very refreshing thought indeed Katya and supported in part.

Sloppy business practices yes those are facts in evidence. However, the way I see BE's infrastructure = capitalism at its best which is all about profit margins.

 

[Spazmelda]

Couldn't agree with Switched more. Cutting corners does (in my mind) amount to greed. It's not a malicious "I'm going to fleece the stupid customers" kind of greed, but it is greed.

Which saves more money, occasionally sending out a batch that's too high because no testing is done, or not spending any money on testing and protocol development? I guess the answer to that question depends on whether you get caught with your pants down.

 

[Switched]

*SNIP

I got the impression that BE was undercutting everyone else on price? What if a competitor paid one of those minimum wage people in the distribution center a couple of hundred thousand to screw up a batch or two? Is that impossible? Just sayin there are a lot of conclusions being drawn from supposition.

Very valid point and a moot one IMHO because if BE would of had proper protocols and practices in place, this incident would have been avoided (almost certain, or seriously difficult to achieve) if all had an infrastructure in place to prevent this sort of thing from happening.

Without traceability BE is the fall guy by association. A POed employee tampering with product at BE would have been discovered by GV and honeyville, then it was up to BE to find the root cause, because they would have been informed by either distribution centres. There immediate action was to cease production until the cause if any was found. Not easily found if accurate records were not kept.

If GV and HE conducted there own testing and bad product went out, it is again easy to trace where the disgruntled employee resides (somewhat) and cease operations on that front until rectified.

There is no doubt that since the beginning the 270 sample is very much questionable and could have been sent to Kurt for testing by someone with ill intent. I will never deny that. However because of the mitigating circumstances we have seen in the last week, poor business practices and adherence to safe protocols leaves BE with very little wiggle room. The owness is on them to prove otherwise IMO. Due to the lack of seemingly anecdotal data, will be difficult to prove.