Nicotine Comparisons

[WillyZee]

Why not freeze for long term without the water? ... then mix with water as you need.


Sent via iPhone

 

[mhertz]

Because it's already mixed with water from the manufacturer

Btw, I found a post on the polish inawera forum 2 years ago I remembered reading previously, where they mixed there PG/VG 50/50 base with clear nic and VG from 6 different places, and two where pink(one little and one more colored) and two others where clear and the rest two I couldn't really understand if where colored or not, lol, as it's in polish with a crappy translation from google-translate... Btw, they've changed there swedish VG currently to a food/pharma supplier in germany now, I got confirmed in a post I made there... I just ordered some more... (also I once stated I detected strangely some "stale" milk notes in a VG which I couldn't understand, but i've just learned that when purifying the VG to 99.5+, then you can use various components for that and one is milk/calcium, so i'm guessing I can taste that...) -Sorry for off-topic

 

[Izan]

Hi Izan

There's still some O2 disolved in the VG/PG itself also, and the argon-purging only removes O2 on-top of the liquid, so oxidation can never be fully "stopped" even with argon-purging. It's the best we can do however, but e.g. Kurt states that he doesn't think the little headspace of non-purged O2 would be much of an issue in a freezed environment with slowed down molecular-movement, but of course certantly doesn't hurt either, if wanting to go all the way possible...

I'm myself just worried about freezing nics with as much water as 20%, as it will possibly freeze solid which I would like to avoid for nic-hotspots/needing-remixing...

Thanks for listening yourself mate

Because it's already mixed with water from the manufacturer

Btw, I found a post on the polish inawera forum 2 years ago I remembered reading previously, where they mixed there PG/VG 50/50 base with clear nic and VG from 6 different places, and two where pink(one little and one more colored) and two others where clear and the rest two I couldn't really understand if where colored or not, lol, as it's in polish with a crappy translation from google-translate... Btw, they've changed there swedish VG currently to a food/pharma supplier in germany now, I got confirmed in a post I made there... I just ordered some more... (also I once stated I detected strangely some "stale" milk notes in a VG which I couldn't understand, but i've just learned that when purifying the VG to 99.5+, then you can use various components for that and one is milk/calcium, so i'm guessing I can taste that...) -Sorry for off-topic

You're not breathing mate.

Cheers
I

 

[mhertz]

Lol, yeah sorry...

I often forget writing paragraphed for better read-ability...

 

[JeremyR]

.... Wow, did rts nic go up or is it just me.... Ill take the nic select for less than half the price, from ecx...

 

[440BB]

I think RTS single liter price went up a while back. The three pack is where there's still a good price break.

 

[Kurt]

@Kurt, if you could kindly help me with something, please...

My currently favorite nic is nicobrand from UK, but it's diluted from nicobrand directly to 72mg VG(for EU vendors) with 20% water. When checking current data about freezing-points of various aqueous-glycerol mixtures, then a 80/20 VG/water mixtures freezing-point is -20.3C, and normally domestic freezers in my country is -18C. I know it's not optimal with so much water for long-term storage(as lesser viscosity and more O2), but it's the only nic i've tried that I don't have taste-issues with, except some china nic which i'm leery off stocking up with, or inawera which also uses nicobrand nic but only 36mg max, or some unknown source which is to "dirty-tobacco" tasting, and i'm lawfully forced to only using EU vendors... Would you think under these conditions(-20.3C freezing-point nicbase in -18C freezer) that it/some will actually freeze solid in your opinion? I would like to avoid needing to shake-mix every new bottle taken up from the freezer because it/some had frozen solid(and as to little headroom, then needing to pour into bigger bottle for being able to properly shake-mix it).

Also, if you think it'll be fine, then do I need to use more headroom when filling the bottles than normally?

Ohh, damn.. Just realized that I haven't taken nicotine into consideration when finding the freezing-point of 80/20 VG/water... Hmm, I don't really know how to calculate that...

Thanks in advance!

(Trying first here, before PM'ing, so others possibly could benefit from the answer...)

Just saw this.

I think your freezer should be just fine at -18C. This is about 0 F, and cooler than my freezer (10F). I have only limited data from freezing a VG-nic juice with 20% water, from years ago, but it did not separate or have solid ice in it...it just got thicker. It was only one attempt at this, but it makes sense to me from a chemistry view: through cross H-bonds, the water solvates completely with the VG, and cannot recombine back into pure water with cold.

As for those that are obsessed with purging headspace air from the stored bottle with a gas like Ar, let's do a little calculation. Let's assume 4 mL of headspace in a bottle of nic. If O2 is 25% of the air (rough estimate) that is 1 mL of O2. We will ignore vapor pressure of VG or water. If we assume 1 atm pressure and 25 C (298K), we can use standard PV=nRT high school chemistry math, where n is moles, and R is 0.0821L-atm/mol-K. So 0.001L O2 is

0.001L x 1 atm/(0.0821L-atom/mol-K * 298K) = 4.08x10^-5 moles of O2.

If one mole of O2 reacts with one mole of nicotine (it is in fact a 1:1 molar ratio in the reaction), then 4.08x10^-5 moles of nicotine will react if all that O2 reacts. Molar mass of nicotine is 166.22 g/mole, so

4.08x10^-5 moles nic x 166.22g/mole x 1000 mg/g = 6.8 mg of nic oxidizing if ALL the O2 in 4 mL headspace reacts.

I think I may have overstated the importance of O2 from added water some years ago here. O2 solubility in water at room temp and 1 atm is about 8 mg/L (0.008g/L). Suppose we add 20% water to 100 mg VG-nic, and we are storing 50 mL of the mixed base in a glass bottle. mg of nic that will oxidize if all the O2 reacts from the added water (10 mL) will be

0.008 g O2/L * 0.010L * 1mole/32g * 1mole nic/1 mole O2 * 166.22 g/mol * 1000 mg/g = 0.4 mg nic oxidized if all the O2 in the water reacts with nic. Less than 1 mg.

O2 solubility in VG is about 2 mg/L. In our 50 mL bottle of VG-nic with 20% water, we have 40 mL of VG (about, there is nic too, but to make it simple). This will lead to oxidation of nic of:

0.002 g O2/L * 0.040L * 1mole/32g * 1mole nic/1 mole O2 * 166.22 g/mol * 1000 mg/g = 0.4 mg nic oxidized if all the O2 in the VG reacts. Same amount as from the 10 mL added water. O2 solubility in PG is about the same as in VG.

Thus, if no O2 gets into the VG-nic from outside, the intrinsic O2 present in the headspace, 20% water and VG will oxidize less than 8 mg of nic total in a 50 mL bottle with 4 mL headspace. Might be enough to give a very slight yellow, but most probably not enough to detect in a DIY e-liquid made from it. And even at room temp, this will take some time.

You cannot remove this intrinsic O2. But it is certainly not enough to be worried about even if it all reacts. Most plastics we use are fairly porous to O2 transport through it from the atmosphere, but while glass is virtually impervious to O2, the plastic caps are not, although they are better than typical dropper bottle plastic (LDPE). This is why even at room temperature, VG-nic in sealed glass bottles lasts a long time without significant coloration. But probably not years. So we cool the nic to slow any reaction from O2 invading through the cap to almost zero. Shrink wrap or electrical tape around the cap might help some, but maybe not much. I don't know, but I don't do this myself.

I store undiluted VG-nic mostly at 100 mg/mL for space reasons, and only in glass. For my VG-nics stored cold after 6.5 years there has been no change. I don't know why one batch of PG-nic I had years ago oxidized to deep yellow-orange after about a year, but to be honest it was not as pure as the nic we generally use today, and might have been oxidized somewhat upon getting it (2009 Totally Wicked Red Label). It was in a deep amber glass 30 mL dropper bottle (rubber surrounding) with child-proof cap that might not have been good at keeping O2 out. Rubber is not good at blocking O2 transport. Other purer PG-nic I have had in better sealed glass did fine for the couple of years I stored it. I haven't had PG-nic in my possession as long as my VG-nic, since I don't vape PG-nic. But others here that have stored pure PG-nic have had good results for multiple years in glass in the freezer.

Conclusion: no matter the DIY-nic you get, get it into well-sealed glass, give a bit of headspace for possible expansion (VG/PG expands with heat), put it in the freezer, and worry about it no more.

 

[Katya]

Today I got an email from Nude Nicotine. They have Armor 3 nic with ascorbic acid added (vitamin C) to prevent oxidation.

Nude Armor V3 - Nude Nicotine

@Kurt and other chemists in the room. What do you think about ascorbic acid in your nic? Good, bad, overkill?

 

[Kurt]

Today I got an email from Nude Nicotine. They have Armor 3 nic with ascorbic acid added (vitamin C) to prevent oxidation.

Nude Armor V3 - Nude Nicotine

@Kurt and other chemists in the room. What do you think about ascorbic acid in you nic? Good, bad, overkill?

Ascorbic acid will react with O2, so maybe this is their strategy, but I don't know if it reacts with O2 faster than nicotine does. It will probably compete, however.

They claim a 0.01 w/v% of ascorbic acid. In 50 mL of base, this will be 5 mg ascorbic acid, or 2.8x10^-5 moles, which can react with, at most the same number of moles of O2. If that many moles of O2 reacted with nic, it would oxidize 4.7 mg of nic. This could, in principle, take care of the much of the O2 that is intrinsic with headspace and dissolved O2. But it is not enough to keep reacting with any additional incoming O2, I don't think. Once an asc acid molecule reacts, that's it, and it will not continue to scavenge O2. So it will not help with plastic bottles leaching O2 into them over long term. Ok with glass, I suppose. Shouldn't be enough to lower the pH much, so titration tests for nic concentration should be unchanged compared to without asc acid.

If you can notice 4.7 mg of oxidized nic in a 50 mL bottle of 100 mg/mL, then it might be worth it. For my taste, it is overkill, however.

I wonder if they did these calculations.

 

[mhertz]

Thank you so much Kurt for your help and thorough explanation/calculations! I'm really happy about knowing that I can use my favorite nic for stocking up in freezer regardless of the high water amount added from manufacturer! Thanks again!

@All, Remember the calculations Kurt kindly made for us for loss of nic, where in plain mg and not in mg/ml, so in the example of a 50ml bottle with 4ml headspace and 100mg VG-nic with even 20% water, then if every O2 molecule reacts(little under 8mg nic-loss), then we're looking at more than 99.84mg nic still available for us in the original 100mg/ml... That's really good news for me, as the added water of my preferred nicobrand nic was really making me uncomfortable in stocking up with... Still, I will not get too much, as I just calculated that in USD i'm gonna pay around 190 USD including shipping for a liter of 72mg nicobrand VG-nic, which is the highest mg available. The cheapest nic in EU delivered to me, is alittle over half that price though...

 

[Katya]

If you can notice 4.7 mg of oxidized nic in a 50 mL bottle of 100 mg/mL, then it might be worth it. For my taste, it is overkill, however.

I wonder if they did these calculations.

No idea, which why I paged you!

Thank you so very much!

 

[Mowgli]

Kurt - is mhertz correct that there's only enough O2 in a liter of frozen nic with 4ml headroom to degrade it to 99.84 mg/ml over any length of time if there's no added air introduced? If so then that's fantastic news!

and thanks for the 100th time for taking the time to help us be safer and smarter

 

[Kurt]

Kurt - is mhertz correct that there's only enough O2 in a liter of frozen nic with 4ml headroom to degrade it to 99.84 mg/ml over any length of time if there's no added air introduced? If so then that's fantastic news!

and thanks for the 100th time for taking the time to help us be safer and smarter

No that's if it is in a 50 mL bottle. 8 mg is TOTAL mass of nic lost. Not to be confused with 100 mg/mL nic, which we often write as 100 mg. Can be confusing. In a liter of 100.00 mg/mL nic, 8 mg loss will make it 99.99 mg/mL. Within even pretty tight experimental error, that is essentially zero.

 

[Rossum]

Just saw this.

I think your freezer should be just fine at -18C. This is about 0 F, and cooler than my freezer (10F). I have only limited data from freezing a VG-nic juice with 20% water, from years ago, but it did not separate or have solid ice in it...it just got thicker. It was only one attempt at this, but it makes sense to me from a chemistry view: through cross H-bonds, the water solvates completely with the VG, and cannot recombine back into pure water with cold.

As for those that are obsessed with purging headspace air from the stored bottle with a gas like Ar, let's do a little calculation. Let's assume 4 mL of headspace in a bottle of nic. If O2 is 25% of the air (rough estimate) that is 1 mL of O2. We will ignore vapor pressure of VG or water. If we assume 1 atm pressure and 25 C (298K), we can use standard PV=nRT high school chemistry math, where n is moles, and R is 0.0821L-atm/mol-K. So 0.001L O2 is

0.001L x 1 atm/(0.0821L-atom/mol-K * 298K) = 4.08x10^-5 moles of O2.

If one mole of O2 reacts with one mole of nicotine (it is in fact a 1:1 molar ratio in the reaction), then 4.08x10^-5 moles of nicotine will react if all that O2 reacts. Molar mass of nicotine is 166.22 g/mole, so

4.08x10^-5 moles nic x 166.22g/mole x 1000 mg/g = 6.8 mg of nic oxidizing if ALL the O2 in 4 mL headspace reacts.

I think I may have overstated the importance of O2 from added water some years ago here. O2 solubility in water at room temp and 1 atm is about 8 mg/L (0.008g/L). Suppose we add 20% water to 100 mg VG-nic, and we are storing 50 mL of the mixed base in a glass bottle. mg of nic that will oxidize if all the O2 reacts from the added water (10 mL) will be

0.008 g O2/L * 0.010L * 1mole/32g * 1mole nic/1 mole O2 * 166.22 g/mol * 1000 mg/g = 0.4 mg nic oxidized if all the O2 in the water reacts with nic. Less than 1 mg.

O2 solubility in VG is about 2 mg/L. In our 50 mL bottle of VG-nic with 20% water, we have 40 mL of VG (about, there is nic too, but to make it simple). This will lead to oxidation of nic of:

0.002 g O2/L * 0.040L * 1mole/32g * 1mole nic/1 mole O2 * 166.22 g/mol * 1000 mg/g = 0.4 mg nic oxidized if all the O2 in the VG reacts. Same amount as from the 10 mL added water. O2 solubility in PG is about the same as in VG.

Thus, if no O2 gets into the VG-nic from outside, the intrinsic O2 present in the headspace, 20% water and VG will oxidize less than 8 mg of nic total in a 50 mL bottle with 4 mL headspace. Might be enough to give a very slight yellow, but most probably not enough to detect in a DIY e-liquid made from it. And even at room temp, this will take some time.

You cannot remove this intrinsic O2. But it is certainly not enough to be worried about even if it all reacts. Most plastics we use are fairly porous to O2 transport through it from the atmosphere, but while glass is virtually impervious to O2, the plastic caps are not, although they are better than typical dropper bottle plastic (LDPE). This is why even at room temperature, VG-nic in sealed glass bottles lasts a long time without significant coloration. But probably not years. So we cool the nic to slow any reaction from O2 invading through the cap to almost zero. Shrink wrap or electrical tape around the cap might help some, but maybe not much. I don't know, but I don't do this myself.

I store undiluted VG-nic mostly at 100 mg/mL for space reasons, and only in glass. For my VG-nics stored cold after 6.5 years there has been no change. I don't know why one batch of PG-nic I had years ago oxidized to deep yellow-orange after about a year, but to be honest it was not as pure as the nic we generally use today, and might have been oxidized somewhat upon getting it (2009 Totally Wicked Red Label). It was in a deep amber glass 30 mL dropper bottle (rubber surrounding) with child-proof cap that might not have been good at keeping O2 out. Rubber is not good at blocking O2 transport. Other purer PG-nic I have had in better sealed glass did fine for the couple of years I stored it. I haven't had PG-nic in my possession as long as my VG-nic, since I don't vape PG-nic. But others here that have stored pure PG-nic have had good results for multiple years in glass in the freezer.

Conclusion: no matter the DIY-nic you get, get it into well-sealed glass, give a bit of headspace for possible expansion (VG/PG expands with heat), put it in the freezer, and worry about it no more.

Nice. Thank you!

What I have learned here is:

• Most (almost 90%) of the 02 present in the bottle at the time it's sealed is in the air in the headspace, and that the amount dissolved in the carrier is minimal by comparison.
• The total amount of oxygen present when the bottle is sealed is relatively insignificant. If it were all to react, the nominal 100 mg/ml nic in our 50ml bottle would be down to 99.84 mg/ml; a discrepancy not even worth thinking about in recipes.
• The remaining unknown is the 02 permeability of the bottle cap. These are typically plastic with a poly-cone seal. I wonder if a metal foil lined cap wouldn't be better for our purposes?

 

[Shilo]

So back to Nicotine Comparisons can anyone tell me aside from nicselect (not going to pay that much) what are the clearest, least peppery/mild nics out there currently? If you don't want to say what you think here-- PM me. Things I don't like: peppery, pink nic, kerosene-ish smell, overly expensive.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

So back to Nicotine Comparisons can anyone tell me aside from nicselect (not going to pay that much) what are the clearest, least peppery/mild nics out there currently? If you don't want to say what you think here-- PM me. Things I don't like: peppery, pink nic, kerosene-ish smell, overly expensive.

On the note of pinkish nicotine-----what causes this?

And why would some be pink and some be yellow?
Thanks

 

[mhertz]

It's theorized by Kurt that the pink comes from nic-oxides changing color due to being affected by other surrounding molecules in the VG/PG. Check out two pages ago in this thread for this very topic

 

[Kurt]

It's theorized by Kurt that the pink comes from nic-oxides changing color due to being affected by other surrounding molecules in the VG/PG. Check out two pages ago in this thread for this very topic

I still don't know what the pink is from, but I've got some additional thoughts. Vanillas will sometimes do this, but we are talking about what should be colorless or slightly yellow DIY-nic. THis is conjecture, but it could be that the batch of pure nic the vendor got to make DIY-nic has some trace metal in it, which is coordinating with VG. It doesn't have to be above safe limits. AEMSA has a total heavy metal content maximum limit, and so does USP for pharma nic, but the actual metals are not specified, and some transition metal ions can make pink colors with hydroxylic compounds like VG. To be clear, I do not think it is harmful, but it can be unsettling. Metal tests by vendors with pink nic should be done, just to rule that out. Would probably cost a few hundred dollars. They should, and generally do, replace them upon request from the customer.

 

[mhertz]

Thanks for your thoughts Kurt! However I remember one nicbase vendor when needing to find a new VG manufacturer, as the old couldn't keep up anymore, tried several VGs with the same (specifically stated clear) UK nicobrand nic(USP/Ph.Eur/AEMSA) and some became pink and others doesn't, and so they choose the VG with highest purity without getting pink(they had 6 bottles with base made from 6 different VGs infront of them afterwards to evaluate from). Of course I don't know if they are lying, but don't see the point of that... It was inawera 2 years ago, with VG from sweden, germany etc and DOW PG and nicobrand UK nic... Also, alittle before that, they suddenly got pink nic base out of the production and then checked there latest shipment from the chemical supplier(brentag) and they had sent them another VG than usual because they had run out of the one they used to supply them, and the inawera founder posted a mail and reply, on there forum that he had sent to brentag warning them if they did that again they would change supplier immediately...

 

[sketchness]

another possible source for Pink Nic From carolina Xtract website:

2. Nitrogen-Nitrogen is interesting because it is a cost effective "push gas" with interesting side-reactions to nicotine. The primary long term reaction is that nitrogen will impart clarity to 100MG/ML nicotine, a positive, and with time will impart a pink hue, possibly a negative. The color change seems to occur mainly in the VG component of the solution, however CXTC has noted certain positive changes to the nicotine properties under long term exposure to nitrogen.

I certainly don't have the scientific chops to back this up. But maybe this is something @Kurt can sink his teeth into.