1. Win Vaping gear! The ECF 15 Millionth Post contest

    We are fast approaching the 15 millionth ECF post and we have a contest to celebrate this huge landmark and amazing prizes to give out to our members! Head over to the official contest thread to see the rules and check out the prizes generously pledged by our registered suppliers on the prize announcement thread.

Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

Discussion in 'Clearomizers' started by M_DuBb716, Nov 1, 2013.

Image has been removed.
URL has been removed.
Email address has been removed.
Media has been removed.
  1. M_DuBb716

    M_DuBb716 Moved On ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Location:
    716
    Hey guys, it's been awhile since I've posted.. I've been building MicroCoils for my Protank 1 & 2 for a couple months now. Absolutely love them!! I run my microcoils on my eVic, so I haven't ventured into the sub-ohm/dual-coil/etc. "world" yet to compare - but rebuilding these MC's is sooo much better than paying extra for the crappy stock-manufactured coils!!

    I know there's a few threads out there already about Microcoils on the Protank and such, but I'm typing this, to try and find out what works best when building an MC (microcoil) for the Protank.. After a few months of experimenting - the best build for me (so far), is when I use 30gauge Kanthal and Cotton-Balls for wick material. My micro's seem to function best when I get about 9-11 tight wraps, coming in around 1.8-2.2Ω.. And I usually vape on these, right around 7 Watts on my eVic.
    .... So what works best for you guys, when building a Microcoil on the Protank??

    I've heard of some people building lower Ω micro's, around 1-1.6Ω. I've seen people building dual microcoils, though mainly these are for dripper's and such, which I plan to get into very soon (if I ever buy a mech lol). I've seen a youtube video on a "Nano-Coil" for the protank, which seemed like a smaller version of the Microcoil, but the guy was running it around 16Watts!! I seem to get the best flavor around 7W?? But I feel like I'm missing something there..

    So what is your favorite Microcoil build for your Protank?? Do you use 30gauge Kanthal, cotton wick? How many wraps do you like, and at what resistance (Ω)? Just trying to see what works best, before I get into RDA's and mech's and such.. I really want to build that dual-microcoil eventually, when I get a mech and learn more!!
    ... Thanks in advance! :2cool:
     
  2. M_DuBb716

    M_DuBb716 Moved On ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Location:
    716
    It seems my best microcoils are at about 1.8-2.2Ω.. Any higher in resistance and they heat up too slow and don't give me that thick, flavorful vapor.. Any lower than 1.8Ω and I get lots of vapor, but it seems the flavor isn't as good; like it gets too hot if I go lower than 1.8.. This is all with 30gauge Kanthal and cotton-wick!
    :)
     
  3. JayEatsAirplane

    JayEatsAirplane Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2013
    Location:
    Chicago, Illinois
    30ga kanthal, 5-6 wraps and surgical cotton from CVS. I wanna say about 1.6Ω. Vapes very nicely on an MVP 2
     
  4. MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Location:
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    M, You might want to take a look at Metalhed's thread...Protank Cotton Rebuild, the way I do it...an excellent discussion on technique.

    Here are some of my 28G results for the original Protank...

    28AWG, 12/11, 1/16-1.58mm i.d., m.c. = 1.8Ω+?
    28AWG, 12/11, 1/16-1.75mm i.d., m.c. = 1.8Ω+?
    28AWG, 10/9, 2mm i.d. (XC-132), m.c.= 1.7Ω Fair @3.4V, 6.8W with 1/16 f/w, throttled
    28AWG, 10/9, 2mm i.d. (0/1 Cotton Sq. Braid), m.c.= 1.64Ω Great vape @3.3V, 6.5W (zMax&eVic LOVES) Clogs Quick!
    28AWG, 10/9, 2mm i.d. (2.5mm Silica), microcoil= 1.62Ω Great vape @3.5V, 7.5W (Sigelei FT Rev3 LOVES)
    28AWG, 10/9, 2mm i.d. (2.5mm Silica), microcoil= 1.62Ω Good vape @3.5V, 8W (Sigelei FT Rev3)
    28AWG, 9/8, 2mm i.d. (2.5mm Silica), microcoil= 1.49Ω Great vape @MAX 3.5V, 8W (sloped Sigelei Rev3 likes)
    28AWG, 9/8, 2mm i.d. (2.5mm Silica), microcoil= 1.49Ω Great vape @3.5V, 7.5W (Sigelei Rev3 LOVES)
    28AWG, 9/8, 2mm i.d. (2.5mm Silica), microcoil= 1.49Ω Great vape @3.5V, 7.0W (Sigelei Rev3 LOVES)
    28AWG, 8/7 2mm i.d. (2.5mm Silica), microcoil= 1.3Ω N/G, No Load

    I'm using some lower resistance wind directly out of Protank's into RDA's I use such as the Forge.

    I've been building mini's and micro's since I was a month in accruing tables of resistance results with a variety of winds and wire/wick media. I've shared a number of optimal observations on thie preceding thread and others.

    Perhaps we would do so here as this title is likely to result in better returns for newb searches. Metalhed's thread is quite good.

    See ya on here.

    Good luck!

    :)
     
  5. JonnyB88

    JonnyB88 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Location:
    Elgin, IL, USA
    Yeah, you're welcome on that one. :p


    Anyhoo, for my PT1's/2's I like 26AWG. 8 wraps. Sterile rolled cotton from CVS as my wick. Roughly .7Ω
    Top my Magneto with that, and then I wait for my REO batts to finish charging. Haha.

    But, I think a good question for cotton users in their Protanks:
    Are you using flavor wicks?
     
  6. retired1

    retired1 Curmudgeon Admin Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2013
    Location:
    Canada
    Moved to Clearomizers.
     
  7. JayEatsAirplane

    JayEatsAirplane Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2013
    Location:
    Chicago, Illinois


    :wub: Thank you sir. :wub:
     
  8. M_DuBb716

    M_DuBb716 Moved On ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Location:
    716
    I forgot to mention, I wrap my Kanthal around a 1/16" drill bit - and slide a piece of rolled cotton through the finished coil, and a small piece on top.. I've been wanting to try a 5/64" bit to wrap around, but haven't tried it yet.

    Jay, thanks for the reply! you say you get about 1.6Ω, with 5/6 wraps of 30ga.. You must be building a different diameter coil than I do (I use the 1/16th bit), because if I only wrapped 5/6 times I would get a lower resistance than 1.6.. Right now I have a 30ga coil that was wrapped 11/12 times and it's coming in at 2.2Ω on my eVic.. I think I would need 7/8 wraps of 30ga to get 1.6Ω

    ..... And 30gauge Kanthal seems to work best for me. I've tried 28gauge, and thought the thicker wire would work better, but it took too long to heat up in my eVic. And I had to wrap at LEAST 11 wraps, usually 12/13, or the resistance would be too low for my eVic.. Maybe I need to experiment with 28ga again

    Mac, thanks for the great input! I'm suprised I never came along that thread, I've been searching all over these forums for protank/microcoil threads. Very interesting results too, maybe I should experiment with lower gauges again, maybe wrap at different diameters (than 1/16") next time??

    Jonny, thanks for the reply!! Yes I use cotton, and yes I do use a flavor wick - Usually slightly smaller than the wick I slide through the coil.. I really need to get a mechanical battery so I can experiment with lower resistances (Ω) and maybe try new gauges of wire and wrapping wider/narrower coils.

    I've never wrapped a microcoil on anything other than the 1/16" drill bit

    :|
     
  9. Trayce

    Trayce Super Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2013
    Location:
    Multiversal
    Nope. But I vape near-100% VG and use a dense cotton wick (compressed with fingers and twisted before running through MC).
     
  10. cyberjunkiefr

    cyberjunkiefr Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2013
    Location:
    France
    I build a vertical microcoil on my protank.
    7 wraps of 28awg on a 2mm (5/64) drilbit, and some coton around it.
    That 1.4ohms that I vape at 9/10 watts.

    RIMG0018.jpg

    RIMG0015.JPG
     
  11. Trayce

    Trayce Super Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2013
    Location:
    Multiversal
    Tried that a few times but got grommet burn every time, (though am getting that with all coils recently, so...) :D Would like to revisit those when Kanger releases the new silicone-grommet head.
     
  12. cyberjunkiefr

    cyberjunkiefr Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2013
    Location:
    France
    If you get grummet burns then your coil is sitting to low (near the grummet) or your coils are not tight enough (the leads wil get very hot.
     
  13. M_DuBb716

    M_DuBb716 Moved On ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Location:
    716
    Wow, never thought about building a vertical microcoil in the Protank!! Very nice, cyberjunkie! How does it vape?? Better than a horizantal micro? I just got some more 28ga today to do some more experimenting
     
  14. M_DuBb716

    M_DuBb716 Moved On ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Location:
    716
    Soo Protank rebuilders... How many ohms (Ω) do you prefer to wrap your microcoil too, and why? Do you prefer 30gauge Kanthal, 28ga, 32ga, or maybe Nichrome? What do you use to wrap around, a 1/16" drill-bit, 5/64"? Do you use cotton, silica, SS mesh, ekowool?? Flavor wick, or just 1 wick through the coil? How much juice do you get through your coil before you have to change the wick out, or change the coil all together?
    .... Trying to figure out what works best for building a microcoil on the PT! :)

    I really need to go buy a mech-mod and buy an atomizer meant for rebuilding, like the IGO's or something
     
  15. MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Location:
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    Hi M. Back with a few remarks. Been at this 4 mos.+ and I have a love hate relationship with the Protank. I resolved a few weeks in that there had to be a solution. I certainly have one where gurgling and hot legs (grommet scorching) are concerned and I'll probably have more to say here later. But it really boils down to symmetry as Rip Trippers discovered some time after starting to rebuild with micro coils and commented specifically about on one of his Protank videos with a change in his micro coil wind process. Unfortunately he didn't explain the "why". On the gurgling I described a maintenance routine that has virtually wiped it out. But another contributing factor has been media.

    Since I started I documented table results of builds by juice/blend with major attributes like wind i.d., media, size, fit, impedance, V/W of operation, resulting resistance under load, etc. It's important IF you want to be able to duplicate your results. You get what you build. Careless irregular hand winds will get you just that. You have to be a machine.

    Just sayin'.

    :smile:

    p.s. A good many of the Protank coils have gone straight in to RDA builds for me. An awesome 1.2Ω coil has done more than a half-doz reworks without straying more than .02Ω 28G on a Forge. Another 1.5Ω 28G has been doing similar service on a little appreciated $8 Optimus. Both due to good initial coil preparation. The Optimus sits on an eVic producing some of the most amazing flavor I've seen so far. Its never missing from my workspace. The 1.2Ω rotates on a pair of Magneto's with a kick. Don't think you need to start with a Helios or Trident (I have two of the latter and three Immortalizers). Those Protank coils will serve you well.
     
  16. Trayce

    Trayce Super Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2013
    Location:
    Multiversal
    Why later? :) I would love to fix the grommet burn problem myself and am all ears. I compress coils with tweezers several times after heating, and they look perfect. No spaces between wraps, all uniform. Still heats the grommet enough to add a bad taste, though not every puff or when cold. But on repeated pulls, when warm, and when chain vaping. Makes it impossible to use.


    Did you happen to bookmark which video this was?

    Again, would love to hear details. (In my case I eliminated gurgling by using a smaller implement for the wrap.)
     
  17. M_DuBb716

    M_DuBb716 Moved On ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Location:
    716
    Thanks for the informative reply Mac, but I couldn't fully understand everything you said there.. I don't have a gurgling problem, my grommets do burn sometimes but it doesn't usually effect the taste. But what is your solution?

    And what video are you speaking of, what is the change in the wind process? And how did you wipe out your gurgling problem. Thanks!
     
  18. Flavored

    Flavored Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Joined:
    May 11, 2013
    Location:
    Chattanooga, TN
    Built me some coils for the first time last week, and they are a marked improvement over the stock. I do have a small problem with a leak, more like an ooze, usually just wets the battery terminal top. I use the cotton yarn as the wick, all 4 strands threaded through the coil, nothing on top. I've had no dry hits/burning, wicking very good. Tell me, am I over- or under-wicked (ie - do I need to toss a strand or two on top), or is there maybe some assembly thing going on?
     
  19. MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Location:
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    Mini Protank Micro Coil Rebuild
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrvwOf13U-s

    The description begins at 1:55 for returning the torched coil to the drill bit for shaping. Why? Because it's rather difficult to get a perfect straight leg off both ends of the coil. Often it happens that you end up with an irregular turn one one or both sides. This must be corrected because such an irregularity may result in a contact of the end turns that is not consistent with the rest. This will effect electron flow. You will not get an optimal result of "the effect". It will impact fire-up speed, may affect impedance (through incidental contact) and I've come to believe this contributes to the incidence of insulator scorching producing the burned taste being experienced. Having taught and perfectly opposed leg symmetry will absolutely stop this (except for top cap shorts, different issue) and is essential to the symmetry of the coil in operation.

    Be aware that if the coil placement ultimately is a bit high a top-wick and pressure from the top cap if too thick may force the coil down. This might introduce variations of the path of either or both legs increasing the potential for shorts. So wick and top-wick diameter is important.

    If the positive poll leg is pulled too tight during installation you may also induce a separation at the top of the outer end of the wind. However, slight this could reduce the efficiency of the flow (after all that careful work). Don't push the work. Slow and steady saves time.

    The only evidence I have is purely anecdotal that after doing more than a hundred variations of builds using this very careful technique of avoiding asymmetry I've not had any grommet scorching. Now mind you, I do stabilize the coil during assembly. I maintain an absolute symmetry and perfectly taught opposed poles at all times. No chance of any incidental contact by the positive leg with the walls or either leg with each other. That results in pretty close and consistent overall wire length in the coil assembly based on the mandrel diameter and as a result predictable resistance results. I also torch each reshaping typically up to a total of three times and quench the coils immediately each time. I believe the latter contributes greatly to the integrity of coil shape. I was skeptical about quenching but rather astounded by the consistency of the results.

    I sometimes use a slightly different approach. As I build on an instrument phillips screwdriver, I can torch right on that bit using some forceps to pull the legs taught. Very briefly and being certain that all coils are compressed and in contact under mild tension. This as a first burn. But although adding some complexity it ensures that the first time that I compress the coil with forceps or tweezers off the bit I do not risk introducing an overlap with overpressure. This is very useful for wire gauges smaller than 30. Careful not to pull too hard on the legs or torch too much. You'll burn them right off in a heartbeat.

    Another video I need to locate describes a technique of winding extra turns and unwinding them by pulling some turns off the bit or mandrel leaving the number you require. Say wind 10 and slowly pull off 2 or 3 under tension, leaving 7. This can result in a perfectly tight symmetrical coil to begin with. For the pro tank it's got to be pretty right going in as it's easy to pull the external legs out of optimal shape and contact if its already a bit off during the installation and tensioning the legs. Doom! You may attempt to rejoin the loops by firing the battery but more often than not you've lost alignment. The more perfectly joined the turns are to start the better. And if it's not firing micro from the onset, pull it and set it back on the bit or start over. Far less work in the long run.

    All I have time for tonight. Like I said, several months being disciplined about it on the initial coil design and no burns. A lot more reusable coils too as the shape is likely to be better maintained after break-in. I re-wick most or turn em out to RDA duty with minimal reshaping.

    Would love to hear your observations as well.

    Good luck!

    :)
     
  20. MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Location:
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    Good morning M. I responded to Trayce above last night in response to your question. He insisted. Honestly very tired and I hope I didn't introduce any confusion.

    I was utterly frustrated at the beginning with how unreliable resistance and performance results were from hand winds, screw winds or simple bit winds. And yeah, with the regular problems of the PT everyone runs into with the insulators and flooding. I figured there had to be a better, simple more reliable way to get this done. Was surprised, and I've talked to a lot of vendors and vapors why this info (our discoveries) is not "pinned" somewhere uniformly by someone. Like, what's the optimal performance sweetspot for a Protank. A short Protank for Dummies 101 with a basic procedure that works and reproducible 1.8, 2.2, and 2.5 ohm instructions with expected results for common wick media.

    I know. It's not easy.

    Look, we all have preferences. But the device has an ideal performance point. We find that, we can duplicate that, then it's a lot easier to get to where we want to be. But not if results are all over the board. The other maddening issue was getting the damned wick into the coil if you pre-wind. And assembling a wicked coil is a bear. Most likely approach to damaging the coil shape you spent so much time on. And it seems no one has a great answer or keeps it real close to the chest. I concluded you need to design the coil build first then determine what fits that best. In my case, on Kanger's, I'm favoring Nextel first, then Ekowool for ease of insertion once you settle on an internal coil diameter that works for you. For example, I'm getting consistently better results on a 1.75mm i.d. overall for the original PT. Nextel XC-132 inserts with incredible ease into that diameter. This permits one to build the perfect coil, in place, determine that you have optimal micro coil performance on the assembly then to insert your media.

    Once you're burned in, on the head, you're not likely to compromise the coil shape much if at all, with the best wick media solution for that wind. Translation, it just works. And, you can duplicate it. No more shorting, minimal flooding but this latter is unfortunately characteristic of the head assembly design. The PT2 is a big improvement. As well the "no glue" cross-bar version that preceded it for a time if you like the older streamlined easthetics.

    Please share results, comments, appreciated.

    Good luck!

    :)
     

Share This Page