Question for those who think we should not vape where we can not smoke...

[DC2]

I support a business owner's right to decide for themselves and their property - unfortunately extended to government-owned property and businesses - but if it's public domain and there is not incontrovertible proof that aerosolized PG/VG/Nic/flavoring is harmful to bystanders, leave me be and go away, else show me the proof.

You support the owner's right to decide, but isn't government-owned property really owned by the public?

 

[toddrhodes]

You support the owner's right to decide, but isn't government-owned property really owned by the public?

A great point but we have a government where public input is, well, to put it lightly - stifled. Sadly, as ignorant as the public is about what we do, do you think if it were left to the public to decide, the outcome would be different?

Slight expansion - if we have one arrow in our quiver that has not existed so much in the past, it's social media. Hell, it caused a civil uprising in Egypt, perhaps some well-designed, targeted social media campaigns might actually *reach* those who do not understand?

 

[DC2]

A great point but we have a government where public input is, well, to put it lightly - stifled. Sadly, as ignorant as the public is about what we do, do you think if it were left to the public to decide, the outcome would be different?

It depends on how educated the public is.
Which in turns depends on either what they are fed, or what information they seek out.

Slight expansion - if we have one arrow in our quiver that has not existed so much in the past, it's social media. Hell, it caused a civil uprising in Egypt, perhaps some well-designed, targeted social media campaigns might actually *reach* those who do not understand?

Yes indeed, this almost the ONLY quiver in our arrow at this point.
That and one-on-one education.

We know that the mass media is (for whatever reason) unwilling to take up our cause, or even present it fairly.
The vast majority of pro-vaping media efforts have been from independent media outlets.

There are few exceptions.

 

[Anjaffm]

Thank you very much for your support, toddrhodes
And I am very glad that Chicago beat that ban attempt!
(we did circulate their petition in Europe as well, you help us, we help you )

Hopefully you have ignited support with your posts, they certainly are polarizing - and that's not a bad thing necessarily.

Dear, the polarization is already in place. Has been in place for a long time. Before I even came to ECF. One look at some postings, and you know where that person is coming from.

Those who wish to support our fight in Europe, they do so. And we thank them, we are grateful.
And our fight in Europe, it is watched by the FDA. Depend on it. We are all in the same boat.
If we fall (which I most certainly hope not) then the US will fall next.


@Pam1384:

Sorry, but I am not trying to "reach" those people. They are beyond "reaching". And have been for a long time.
They know who they are. And they miss no opportunity to take out their little knives and to try and stab anybody in the back who is in favor of actively doing something - or who IS actively doing something - instead of sitting on our little behinds, waiting for others to take action.

You have seen them in action, right in this thread. Those people are beyond "reaching". By far.

 

[wv2win]

Okay, well I'm done here.

I don't blame you. It's like trying to have a discussion with a 5 year old who isn't getting their way. Logic does not apply.

 

[toddrhodes]

It depends on how educated the public is.
Which in turns depends on either what they are fed, or what information they seek out.


Yes indeed, this almost the ONLY quiver in our arrow at this point.
That and one-on-one education.

We know that the mass media is (for whatever reason) unwilling to take up our cause, or even present it fairly.
The vast majority of pro-vaping media efforts have been from independent media outlets.

There are few exceptions.

Well, don't forget the lovely "Santa Vaping" billboard that Blu concocted. I am generally of the mind that "any exposure is good exposure" but in our case? Not s'much. We need more things like #IMPROOF that will resonate with the public and prove that it's not all in our heads, it's a true alternative to smoking and IT WORKS. Hopefully more campaigns come out like #IMPROOF or hell, even a Netflix Documentary or something of the sort?

 

[B1sh0p]

You support the owner's right to decide, but isn't government-owned property really owned by the public?

The government's policies are supposed to be dictated by their constituents. Unfortunately, we aren't the majority.

 

[B1sh0p]

I don't blame you. It's like trying to have a discussion with a 5 year old who isn't getting their way. Logic does not apply.

The irony in this post is epic, just epic. Well done, sir.

 

[Anjaffm]

I don't blame you. It's like trying to have a discussion with a 5 year old who isn't getting their way. Logic does not apply.

Thank you, dear.
And looks like this quote comes in just the right place

 

[edyle]

Ok the point is the entire paragraph not one section cherry picked. If you read enough of these sorts of thread you will eventually run into one of the many that post and say if they tell me no I will do it anyways and they will never know, then justify it by calling it civil disobedience. I was making the point in that paragraph that I do not understand that stance since it is NOT civil disobedience it is simply I am gonna do what I want and you can't catch me.

You are making a ton out of a line that is meant as part of the entire thing not a separate thing.

Yes, I agree it would not usually really have anything to do with a rational civil disobedience thought process; I think what it is mostly about is the simple simplicity of taking something out of your pocket and popping it in your mouth for a second then putting it away.

When you ask somebody why they did or do something, their own attempt to describe their behavior may not be accurate; the behaviour is easy to understand because of the simplicity of the act; the rationalisation or explanation of civil disobedience is only a afterthought or claim and not really important to understanding the behaviour.

 

[toddrhodes]

And so the discussion devolves to name-calling. Come on folks, we're on the same side here - we're better than that.

DC2 - I've got a headscratcher here... we are pretty much focusing on educating the general public and it's obviously a needed milestone in a very long process however, we are first making the assumption that the majority of vapers are *intelligent* to the facts and the science of vaping. The more I think about it, I'm not so convinced that this assumption is reality. Thoughts?

 

[DC2]

I don't blame you. It's like trying to have a discussion with a 5 year old who isn't getting their way. Logic does not apply.

I wasn't giving up, I was just saying that I thought B1shOp had done a great job of helping me make my point.
And for that I truly wish to think him.

For some who may agree with his thoughts, that is their prerogative.
Too often they do not have enough conviction to step into the spotlight and support their beliefs.

But at least he provided the opportunity to explore the full extent of the questions originally posed.
And again, for that I do thank him.

I hope both sides have been fairly presented here.
That was what I was hoping could happen.

The reader is left to see what they see, hear what they hear, and come to their own conclusions.

 

[DC2]

We need more things like #IMPROOF that will resonate with the public and prove that it's not all in our heads, it's a true alternative to smoking and IT WORKS. Hopefully more campaigns come out like #IMPROOF or hell, even a Netflix Documentary or something of the sort?

I hope this project eventually comes to fruition...
We Are Vapers | An Exploration into the World of Harm Reduction

 

[Anjaffm]

we are first making the assumption that the majority of vapers are *intelligent* to the facts and the science of vaping. The more I think about it, I'm not so convinced that this assumption is reality. Thoughts?

You are absolutely correct, to my mind.
Some have lots of knowledge about vaping facts and science. Some have a little knowledge. And some have no knowledge at all - and like it that way.

That greatly contributes to the polarization which you and I mentioned.

But what to do? You can lead a person to facts, but you can't make them read.

 

[toddrhodes]

You are absolutely correct, to my mind.
Some have lots of knowledge about vaping facts and science. Some have a little knowledge. And some have no knowledge at all - and like it that way.

That greatly contributes to the polarization which you and I mentioned.

But what to do? You can lead a person to facts, but you can't make them read.

Weekly quizzes that determine posting rights and flood control?

I kid

Kinda.

 

[DC2]

DC2 - I've got a headscratcher here... we are pretty much focusing on educating the general public and it's obviously a needed milestone in a very long process however, we are first making the assumption that the majority of vapers are *intelligent* to the facts and the science of vaping. The more I think about it, I'm not so convinced that this assumption is reality. Thoughts?

I absolutely agree that the majority of vapers are not educated to the science of vaping.
And for years now I have been searching for ways to change that as quickly as humanly possible.

The thing I'm seeing now is that as we get more and more and more new members, our vaping IQ as a group decreases faster and faster.
New vapers seem to come in carrying the baggage of decades of brainwashing, and it is hard to fix that fast enough.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, for whatever they are worth.
And since you did ask for them.

 

[Iffy]

With that said, I do not understand why every post you make lately seems to belittle a bunch of faceless gutless forum members? Are you trying to shame people sheeple into feeling sympathy for you and everyone in the EU?

Anjaffm is a canary down in the 'vaping mines'! If one does not appreciate her alarms, then kiss your vapin' hinnie goodbye and be prepared go into stealth mode.

... but your tactics are, in my opinion, ineffective and accusatory.

Ineffective?!?! Got you to respond. Accusatory?!?! Absolutely, for those that are willing to slip & slide without standing up to ignorance and unwarranted control!!!

As to the point of the thread? Banning vaping outdoors is excessive. I support a business owner's right to decide for themselves and their property - unfortunately extended to government-owned property and businesses - but if it's public domain and there is not incontrovertible proof that aerosolized PG/VG/Nic/flavoring is harmful to bystanders, leave me be and go away, else show me the proof. And if anyone tries to dictate what I can do in the home I own? Well I also fully recognize, support, and participate in the 2nd amendment. Just sayin'

I'm with ya 100% on the above quote.

BUT, at what point will one use the 2nd in order to defend the Preamble ("life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness") to our Constitution? Ummmm...? <gotta luv da ol' slippery slope>

ETA: Day-um, I'm gettin' slower in replying nowadays...

 

[B1sh0p]

Did I miss the "facts" and "science" in this thread? I thought it was a discussion about public vaping that included the usual fear mongering that led to insults from the usual suspects.

 

[toddrhodes]

Did I miss the "facts" and "science" in this thread? I thought it was a discussion about public vaping that included the usual fear mongering that led to insults from the usual suspects.

No, I got off on a tangent completely unrelated to the discussion you were having. Just random musings, that's all.

 

[Anjaffm]

I absolutely agree that the majority of vapers are not educated to the science of vaping.
And for years now I have been searching for ways to change that as quickly as humanly possible.

The thing I'm seeing now is that as we get more and more and more new members, our vaping IQ as a group decreases faster and faster.
New vapers seem to come in carrying the baggage of decades of brainwashing, and it is hard to fix that fast enough.
.

You can say that again.

How about a little summary about the benefits of vaping, as a form of harm reduction? Including links to scientific studies?
http://www.rstreet.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/RSTREET11.pdf

That is a good one. Only 6 pages and all you need to know, for starters. Including mention and de-bunking of some of the misleading indoctrination.

I will not hold my breath though....

edit:
love ya, Iffy