So what might really happen with regulations/bans? Should we be stocking up?

Discussion in 'FDA Regulations' started by Will Cunningham, Jul 1, 2014.

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  1. Will Cunningham

    Will Cunningham Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    There are so many threads on this and I'm really confused.

    I'm not sure if vaporizers could become illegal to sell, or just regulated in some ways.

    Without reading long articles, could someone give a prediction on what is most likely to change? I know the nicotine tax will probably happen. But is it bad enough we should start stocking up on mods, nicotine, and tanks?

    I read about the FDA regulating things like childproof caps for e-juice but what might happen other than that? I don't understand what they might do that will hurt us vapers. It doesn't seem unreasonable to put child-proof caps on to be safe since some people might store things around kids. I just don't understand, I have Autism and I get really confused trying to read all the threads.

    And if there is real dangers, what should we be stocking up on? I don't mind paying nicotine tax or anything and I have a bottle of 100mg nic. I am just worried something bad will happen and I will be tempted to going back to smoking.

    Can anyone please help explain in a simple way what is probably going to happen, and the worst case scenarios? I'm also worried someone will end up getting hurt not using a mod right and blow up the battery, then they will have a lot more pull in taking them off the market.

    Thanks for your help guys, I highly value your opinions :)

    -Will
     
  2. Will Cunningham

    Will Cunningham Senior Member ECF Veteran

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  3. Kent C

    Kent C ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    No one really knows, but there are many that think that only cigalikes will exist after the 'final rule' of the FDA. There are less that think that other hardware devices - eGos, mods, etc. won't be affected but even some of them think that eliquid will be affected - esp. premixed and the nic base.

    My advice is this:

    IF (big if) you have certain hardware and eliquid that you know you could vape forever, then there's no downside on stocking up if you have the present time cash flow. If that is the case, you will use them in the future if there is a ban or partial ban, so you won't be out anything other than present time cash, which you would have spent anyway.

    IF (another big if) you are still 'shopping' for the 'right hardware' or the right eliquid, then your decision is a bit harder. You could hold off for about 2 years (it will likely be that long before the 'final rule' comes down) and still sample until you find the right products, but once you do, again, it might end up in your favor as a 'good investment'. Premixed eliquids can last about 18-24 months but DIY eliquids can last much longer. See:

    http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...lease-help-me-check-my-math-before-i-buy.html

    .... and pay particular attention to Kurt's post (our 'resident chemist') who has probably the best information and experience in storing - nicotine bases. Basically Nic bases and diluents (PG and VG) can be stored in a freezer, whereas flavoring only should be stored in a cool, dark, dry place. And of the three main ingredients, stocking up on nic base is likely the most important as PG, VG and flavoring should still be available - some "special" flavorings for ecigs - certain tobacco flavors, etc. may not be, though.
     
  4. Will Cunningham

    Will Cunningham Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    OK thank you so much. I have a good amount of mech mods and VV's and some nic juice, that would be great if I can extend the life of the nic base and get enough to last a few years.

    I'm just trying to figure out the most important things I should be stocking up on. I'm worried that with tanks being banned, it will be hard to use the mods unless you can do only rebuildables (I still am having trouble learning).

    I guess I should get as much nicotine base reasonably possible, some high quality tanks, maybe a few hundred coils (when I can afford them), learn to use re-buildables as we should be able to keep getting Kanthal wire. And batteries should be fine.

    It just sucks for the VV's because eventually the circuitry will go out. Might have to buy 4-5 kicks too.

    And it seems the flavors might be the most impacted so I'm going to have to start doing DIY again I think (my first attempts weren't so great, only 1 out of maybe 10 juices turned out decent :/ ). But this would shut down so many great companies like MT Baker since it would cost thousands just to approve a new juice!

    And for the things still legal to buy, I imagine the prices will skyrocket.

    Big tobacco really must have some pull for this to happen to vaporizers when tobacco has so many other addictive and dangerous chemicals when with juices we use we know for the most part what's in them, they sound to me to be very safe, and it's just nicotine instead of all the other junk/tar in cigs.


    This is so sad, so many businesses will be shut down. Vaping is saving my life and so many others. So many people are depending on sales and will be unemployed/go bankrupt.
     
  5. Harlen

    Harlen Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    What we know is that they will tax it .
    They will regulate it .
    We will pay more for every thing .
    I have back up's and extra juice in the freezer
     
  6. Will Cunningham

    Will Cunningham Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    ok, I just wasn't sure if nicotine base would do well in the freezer and how long it would stay good.

    This really sucks, I have high-functioning Autism and I smoked for many years and I get obsessions on things like science and collecting things and vaping has been by far the best hobby I have ever found. I love vaping, waiting for new stuff in the mail, learning DIY e-juice (slowly but surely), and I'm just now learning to use re-buildables. This is so fun and makes my life happier and healthier and they are going to take it away from me. I can barely afford what I buy now so I'm scared I won't be able to keep afford being able to vape in the future :*( This is so upsetting, I finally found something I really enjoy and I can't work right now but I thought one day I could open up my own e-juice store online, but now that won't be able to happen.

    I had such high hopes with all this.
     
  7. Kent C

    Kent C ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    One quote from the 'storage' link:

    Kurt:
    " I have 4 year old nic in mine that is unchanged, and I expect it to last many more years. VG nic has a better track record for long term freezer storage than PG nic, but if the nic is pure (clear, colorless and almost tasteless) it should be fine indefinitely.

    And he tested the nic level with no decrease on the 4 year old stuff. The trick is to get pharmaceutical grade nic. I got mine from Decadent Vapours - one of the highest degrees of purity - from Wales, but got enough to where they gave me free shipping :) But in smaller quantities, you'll have the shipping costs so you might want to try some US sites.

    Liberty Flights carries the DV flavorings and I suspect that their nic base is also DV although I've never confirmed that. The mg level 54mg is the same and they say it's sourced in the UK :)

    D.I.Y & Mixing - Unflavored E-Liquid

    If you're considering a bulk purchase, I'd contact them by email for a deal, if possible. The VG/nic base is nic in a base of VG (also pharma-grade) that is thinned with deionized/distilled water at a 83:17 ratio VG:H2O which brings the viscosity in the range of most PG nic bases. I also use the DV AG (Aqueous Glycerin -similarly thinned) as a diluent as well as the DV flavorings. It is the one case where the DIY is the same as their premixed because you're using the same ingredients and the same formula that DV uses - available at their site - so it vapes the same as their premixed.... an uncommon attribute if you've done any DIYing :)
     
  8. Endor

    Endor Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    I tend to be one that believes that hardware, specifically mods, will be difficult to regulate. A mechanical mod is just a tube with a switch that can be used for anything... First, I think it could fall under the "accessory" definition that is excluded from regulation in the docs anyway. Second, a vendor need simply add a flashlight with a 510 threaded connector on it, and now its a flashlight... yeah, skirting, but how do you prove it? Mod batteries (e.g. 18650s) are used for all kinds of things, including Tesla cars and high-powered flashlights, so no risk of those going away.

    Its more hazy on the VV/VW mod and atomizer front. Can you regulate a RBA/RDA? Until the user builds it themselves (with hundreds of build options available to that user), it does nothing. So, how would that approval process work exactly?

    The crux of all of this, for certain, is the eliquid and nicotine. Nicotine is what is driving the deeming regs anyway, as its derived from tobacco. So, no doubt that it will be regulated if the deeming regs are approved.
     
  9. Grimwald

    Grimwald Ultra Member ECF Veteran

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    I apologize in advance as this will be long winded...this is how I believe things will develope.

    1. It's summer. Our Government, federal, state, local and courts do not work much in the summer. ANTZ think tanks, University and Government funded are also quiet. The media is rather quiet right now, It's no wonder that the FDA extented the comment period.

    2. Expect everything to ramp up in the fall. As much as we despise them, you can't deny that the forces aligned against us have been successful at turning many in the public against e-cigs. If there is anything I understand, it is marketing. Expect anti e-cig media stories to fill the media this fall. The real shame is that we do not seem to be able to counter this with our own positive media, but that is another subject.

    3. Around the end of October, the FDA will publish their deeming proposal. This is when we will discover what products will be "deemed" as tobacco products. I don't believe this will clarify all of the regulations, but it will let us know what will be subject to regulation...and this is the key. Certainly, nicotine and anything containing nicotine will be deemed as a tobacco product. If I read the original proposal correctly, the FDA would also like to included anything that delivers nicotine as a tobacco product. It will be critical to find out what products will be grandfathered. only the grandfathered product can be sold without applying for FDA approval. Worst case scenario is that only some cig-a-likes and pre-filled cartos are allowed and everything else will need to go thru the costly application process. It is hard to see a path to regulating batteries and wire.

    4. The last 2 months of 2014 will be tweaking the final proposal.

    5. If the deeming regulation go into effect on January 1st, the next 6 months are panic time. Although the final regulations will not be enforced for 2 years, any product that has been deemed a tobacco product, will only have a 6 month grace period. Companies will have to decide at this point whether to go thru the legal headaches and considerable expense to prepare and file an approval application for each and every product it sells. Some companies will have fire sales and either go out of business or severely limit the number of products they sell. Consumers will begin hoarding...yep panic. At the end of 6 months, only those products that have filed for approval will be allowed to be sold. It remains to be seen if the FDA will expedite this process, but if the past is any indication, don't hold your breath.

    6. Next year will also see an increase in state and local tax bills and regulation. The fact that the FDA has not deemed products to be tobacco products has somewhat inhibited local regulation, but now it's Katie bar the door. By this time next year we may be looking over the smoldering remains of a once thriving industry.

    7. For the next 2 years, there will be litigation, more taxing and regulation. Flavors, childproof caps, internet sales, all sorts of things we can envision and not foresee will be debated.

    This is how I see things unfolding from where things stand today. I am already hoarding nicotine and turning to changeable battery devices and rebuildables. Hopefully my doom and gloom scenario is wrong, but I hope I can withstand whatever gets thrown my way.
     
  10. Gato del Jugo

    Gato del Jugo ProVarinati ECF Veteran

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    Don't write it off just yet...


    New juice-makers are still coming online every month.. New products are still coming out & in the works.. New vape shops are still opening up..

    The owner of a recently-opened vape shop that made a big splash was asked in an interview how any FDA regulations would be affecting his plans.. He said he was bummed at first, but then shrugged it off & is going full-steam ahead in opening his next store..


    While there's potential risk in starting any business, and the vaping industry is no exception, I believe it will be years before any FDA stuff would have any real impact.. Meanwhile, the industry could get a lot done during that time, you know?


    At the consumer level, I'm keeping all these potential FDA & taxation issues in the back of my mind as I continue my vape journey.. Better safe than sorry..

    I wanted to do this regardless, but I made the effort & gradually stepped down my nic level from 18mg to zero-nic (though sometimes question that decision, LOL).. Others might want to do something similiar, or at least cut back the nic some, if they're a little concerned.. Once you get far enough away from combustible tobacco, I don't think the nic in e-liquid is as addicting as many like to think or claim...

    I also recently started DIY e-liquid.. Really easy, really cheap.. Lots of fun! The FDA cannot regulate the separate ingredients of VG, distilled water & food/beverage flavorings as tobacco products.. Nic base, however, might face a tougher battle.. However, countries like Australia, I believe, have partially gotten around the pre-made e-liquid containing nic, through the use of "doublers"...

    As for PVs, I already like my ProVari's.. Among other things, they're durable & well-built -- and once outside warranty, during a product's lifetime can be sent in for repair at a US company for a reasonable fee, should it ever require it.. I keep this in mind as I gradually expand my ProVari collection.. Other names that have been floated about for surviving in a "vapocalypse" are Reo's & quality mech mods...

    As for toppers, that's the weak link for me.. I've yet to get into some quality RBA's.. I really need to.. I've been wanting to, but just dragging my feet.. Soon enough.. They cannot regulate Kanthal & cotton balls, just as they cannot regulate batteries & chargers & the like...


    In other words, I'm not really doing anything differently because of the FDA.. However, I am keeping it in the back of my mind.. I think it's best if experienced-enough vapers try to be as self-sufficient as reasonably possible..

    But vaping isn't going bye-bye.. That genie is already out of the bottle a long time ago.. And demand will only continue to grow...


    In the meantime, continue to travel your vape journey, wherever it leads you.. It's just unfortunate that we need to use resources to fight the FDA & other regulatory/legislative bodies.. but that's what happens to industries as they begin to mature.. Not saying the vaping fight is completely typical, yet in many ways, it is..

    Don't let it destroy any dreams, though... :)
     
  11. fairtradesloth

    fairtradesloth Chief of Wakonda Warriors Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Im still new to all of this, but it seems to me that the statement in the above post, "That genie is already out of the bottle a long time ago," carries a lot of weight. Seems like WORST, WORST, utterly WORST case scenario, nic may be the main problem, and convenience--but with the wealth of knowledge and unregulatable accessories available, vaping itself seems impossible to crucify.

    Even if a pain to learn how to be as self-sufficient as possible, and even if zero nic is the only way to go in the future...so be it...I'll vape on :)
     
  12. DigitalDoom

    DigitalDoom Full Member

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    My sentiments exactly!

    If they wanted to kill e cigarettes they should have done it years ago. It's now grown into a huge market that's both creating jobs and keeping money flowing. E cigarettes aren't going anywhere in the USA. There's just too much at stake.

    Where we really need to focus is in keeping it possible for any "average Joe" to take a few thousand bucks and turning it into a decent business that supports his/herself, his/her family and the local community. Every American should have the opportunity to improve their lot in life and right now e cigarettes make it very possible for most anyone to do that.
    Here's to helping keep it that way!:toast:
     
  13. randyith

    randyith Registered Supplier ECF Veteran

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    Our chemists say the FDA will require ionized water instead of distilled water. This has zoning applications and a few thousand dollars for vendors with clean rooms.
     
  14. wv2win

    wv2win ECF Guru ECF Veteran

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    You obviously have not read the Deeming Regulations or understand their impact. And you are either not aware or do not understand that those who control the Senate, Harkins, Durbin, Rockefeller, Pelosia, etc are all very anti-vaping and want it stopped as much as possible.

    And where you get "there is too much at stake" is a mystery. Just in comparison to the size of the "smoking" population and the financial side of that industry, vaping is a tiny. Compare the vaping industry to the industry that wants it eliminated, Big Pharm, it's like comparing an ant to an M1 Abrams Tank. As things stand now, if vaping went away tomorrow, other than cig-a-likes, what dire consequences would Big Tobacco, Big Pharm or the leaders of the Senate suffer?? What "stake" is so big or high, that they are shaking uncontrollably?

    Thinking that we won't be left with only cig-a-likes if EVERY vaper does not stand-up and get active, is wishful thinking at it's worst.
     
  15. Jman8

    Jman8 Vaping Master ECF Veteran

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    And thinking EVERY vaper will stand up is wishful thinking. You oughta know this from just the usage ban discussions.

    Is underground market as part of a future of vaping also wishful thinking? Cause, so far, apart from our side overcoming usage bans, I'm not seeing the way through deeming regulations given our self defeating rhetoric.

    IMO, we ought to be putting our eggs in the "move the grandfather date" option. Instead, I feel like there's a handful of us that bring this up, and that is deemed wishful thinking by majority.

    Tell me, anyone, what is not wishful thinking in face of FDA regulations.
     
  16. Redwizard000

    Redwizard000 Full Member

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    I personally think that any kind of ban would be very difficult to enforce. All the chemicals except for nicotine are readily available. You can buy USP VG and PG on Amazon. They sell food flavors at Wal-Mart and baking supply stores. Mechanical mods are batteries connected to an adapter. Coils are a piece of wire with some cotton between them. You can easily build a mod with parts scrounged from Radio Shack... I have seen people do it. DIY juice isn't like making .... or smuggling ........ It is a few liquids easily procured and mixed together in the proper proportions.

    Waste of time knee jerk reactions by our talking heads in Washington. It will probably cost the taxpayers a fortune (look how well the war on drugs is doing!) and cost otherwise innocent citizens their money and\or freedom. Got to keep the American Prison Industry running! (one place that the United States is still #1 in the world in! No other country in the world jails as many of its people than America: Land of the free! Including places like North Korea and China!)

    I would be they are more likely to find a way to tax the balls off the industry. The unfortunate side affect of the decline of cigarettes is the loss of EPIC government funds. (funds which, by the way are SUPPOSED to go to health care to offset the medical problems that smokers get, not to fund the governments pet projects...)
     
  17. wv2win

    wv2win ECF Guru ECF Veteran

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    Jman, I agree with you. I think we need to attack the Deeming Regulations on as many fronts as possible, including "move the grandfather date". But I won't give up with encouraging every vaper to become active until the only option left is black market.

    It is "head shaking" to see relatively new members post that there is nothing to worry about. There is no hope for the few older members who post ignorant tripe like that.
     
  18. wv2win

    wv2win ECF Guru ECF Veteran

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    Have you read the Deeming Regulations? Would you prefer that every vaper do nothing and believe that nothing will happen? Do you think that a "black market" in nicotine will have no possible adverse consequences in comparison to the current vaping environment?
     
  19. twistedtimes

    twistedtimes Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    This is my take on what the FDA will do. They will give a grace period. Some will stay in business and some won't. The FDA will regulate the nicotine to less than 20 MG and no more, which means you won't be able to order 100 MG. They will also regulate a store as being either retail or wholesale, so you won't be able to buy bulk nicotine without a wholesalers license just like alcohol.

    Then they will do this an scare everyone away. The FDA will require an efficacy study to be done on the nicotine/juice and its effects, like they do with all drugs. This will probably be the forefront of it all. The downside here is it usually takes 10 years to get through a FDA approval and costs millions to do. Only the BIG companies will be able to do this and probably won't. they kill it through money.

    Then after all of this the FDA will require preservatives and other harmful chemicals to be put into the nicotine juice. This therefore eliminates to use e-cig and go back to stinkies.

    Now there is one thing they cannot do as this is legal and cannot be undone due to prohibition. Grow your own tobacco leaves and extract it yourself.
     
  20. Burnie

    Burnie The Bug Man Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Ok, so can you give me the process to extract nicotine from tobacco? Doing a NET is not getting the nicotine, just the flavor.

    Vape On
    Burnie
    :vapor:
     
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