Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.
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Here's the wire - the one in the center - loose twisted 4 strand 30 ga. The outside pieces are tight twisted 4 strand 30 ga.
Not quite sure why you want a pic of a lathe for (Seems like you have a sound plan gt. I knew someone would find a use for these things.
...
Best of luck gt. Keep us posted and still would love to see a pic if you can sometime.
), but ...This is what I started with:
Chucked in the lathe:
Winding it (sorry, don't have 3 hands ... 1 for tension, 1 for rotation and 1 for the camera)
Closeup of it in the lathe:
Removed from the lathe:
Removed from the coiler:
The first coil I did this morning I annealed the wire, but as that removes the internal stress of the cold drawn wire it didn't hold its shape well after coiling (still as good if not better than hand winding, but not as good as using wire as is).
The second coil wound nicely, the first turn you see where it has separated a bit is where it was hand wound to get it started before putting tension on the wire.
Not surprising really, given that "we" use tension forming to ensure the shape you want to end up with keeps its shape ... think of pressing a body panel on your car, it isn't performed with annealed steel sheet but cold rolled sheet, and the part remains in tension after forming. The car industry doesn't call it tension forming, but drawing* ... but the principle is the same.me said:
Not enough "draw" and the part wrinkles, too much and the part splits, especially in deep draws like a sump.
What a micro coil complete circuit is and does...
Niiice. Thanks for the visuals gt. I hand wind using a variety of pin vise tools for the precise control it gives. But more frequently I'll resort to my RYOBI for fat wire. Hope the hands hold up. But good to know I have that to fall back on.
Just as important as the rigidity of form accomplished by this method of winding or shaping is electrical function. Given enough strain (elongation) you get the wire as tight as two objects can come together. That helps ensure gapless uniform oxidation (in practical terms). As I mentioned to you earlier, just enough and there's a zone of electrical flow stability you get to when you apply the early stages of oxidation at low voltage. In other words, when you get the adequate deposition of alumina insulation to avert breakdown voltage for the power level to be applied. Then…you have a complete and very stable circuit.
The best of all worlds — the most compact thermally efficient geometry brought by the proper protection from shorting. That's what a properly completed tensioned microcoil achieves.
Good luck.
Niiice. Thanks for the visuals gt. I hand wind using a variety of pin vise tools for the precise control it gives. But more frequently I'll resort to my RYOBI for fat wire. Hope the hands hold up. But good to know I have that to fall back on.
Just as important as the rigidity of form accomplished by this method of winding or shaping is electrical function. Given enough strain (elongation) you get the wire as tight as two objects can come together. That helps ensure gapless uniform oxidation (in practical terms). As I mentioned to you earlier, just enough and there's a zone of electrical flow stability you get to when you apply the early stages of oxidation at low voltage. In other words, when you get the adequate deposition of alumina insulation to avert breakdown voltage for the power level to be applied. Then…you have a complete and very stable circuit.
The best of all worlds — the most compact thermally efficient geometry brought by the proper protection from shorting. That's what a properly completed tensioned microcoil achieves.
Good luck.
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Oh, my bad. No the outside pieces are there as a reference to the looseness of the twist. The outside pieces are traditional twist till it breaks 4 strand.
But I'm using Nichrome, not Kanthal. Guess I'll just have to put up with well formed coils that don't easily get bent out of shape
Saw that. Why I clarified on oxidation. In my estimation there were good reasons why Kanthal became the dominant wire a few years back vs. NiCr and not just a matter of consensus.
Symmetry is essential to a good vape. And I was pleased to see more manufacturers moving to it this past year. Too often it's lack of wick contact like a loose or high turn that disrupts balanced heat output and sours the vape.
All wire is tensioned. If you're using alternative wire strain winding will balance the internal stress improving the performance in my estimation. At the very least making it easier to minimize inconsistencies in shape or stress that may result in temp variations…and that's a big plus. So although you can't close all gaps in say a multi wire build like twisted or SxD's weave wind above you can improve on both symmetry and in closing contact gaps that may send the wire going too hot at a given point or overall. So yep, tension is good.
With a NiCr wind I'd consider using a pin vise (or mech opt) and screw to tension wind. Strain will imbue rigidity in lieu of torching. No advantage gained by pulsing to oxidize tho.
The main important advantage I emphasize Kanthal is that tension winding can deliver a uniform insulation of the wire. Only wire we're using that achieves that and easily for beginners. This allows for a predictable resistance and performance in practical terms. A benefit to new vapers I believe. It takes them quickly into the realm of flavor and vapor production the rest of us enjoy.
IMO tank and atty design have improved so much since tension winding was introduced that the vapor output is certainly there now. But at the expense of more power and higher heat levels. And for the gallery — no, more power does not necessarily produce more flavor (or vapor for that matter). Good design and consistency does. We get the vape that we build.
Good luck gt.
Symmetry is essential to a good vape. And I was pleased to see more manufacturers moving to it this past year. Too often it's lack of wick contact like a loose or high turn that disrupts balanced heat output and sours the vape.
All wire is tensioned. If you're using alternative wire strain winding will balance the internal stress improving the performance in my estimation. At the very least making it easier to minimize inconsistencies in shape or stress that may result in temp variations…and that's a big plus. So although you can't close all gaps in say a multi wire build like twisted or SxD's weave wind above you can improve on both symmetry and in closing contact gaps that may send the wire going too hot at a given point or overall. So yep, tension is good.
With a NiCr wind I'd consider using a pin vise (or mech opt) and screw to tension wind. Strain will imbue rigidity in lieu of torching. No advantage gained by pulsing to oxidize tho.
The main important advantage I emphasize Kanthal is that tension winding can deliver a uniform insulation of the wire. Only wire we're using that achieves that and easily for beginners. This allows for a predictable resistance and performance in practical terms. A benefit to new vapers I believe. It takes them quickly into the realm of flavor and vapor production the rest of us enjoy.
IMO tank and atty design have improved so much since tension winding was introduced that the vapor output is certainly there now. But at the expense of more power and higher heat levels. And for the gallery — no, more power does not necessarily produce more flavor (or vapor for that matter). Good design and consistency does. We get the vape that we build.
Good luck gt.
Gettin' pretty gud there Supe. Played around in Slippy's territory for a while but way too diffuse a vape for my taste. Gettin' braid right so it's at all consistent s'an art form. But man you broke out the box friend. Your twisted variations are sweet. Next you'll be tellin' us you're doin' flavors.
Done a lot of twisted these past few years. But straight wire 24/25 t.m.c.'s and twisted lead parallel versions just plain ace 'em. The latter for firing time. I've never been able to strain twisted multi-wire consistently enough to ensure enough oxidation that they don't go hotter than non-tensioned parallels. And that's sayin' a lot. If I said one outta three I'd be lyin'. But they can be tensioned into coherence with a little tlc and they're a good vape. I'm still twistin' from time to time. As someone once said…
If you've got gaps in your wraps, you're not building it right..
I still keep the Ryobi charged but mostly making short strand TP's with a pin vise. Even a short section on the drill ends up with too much pitch variation end-to-end. Then have to try and nail the tension wind too hard. If I hand twist I get a very consistent pitch. Bit more work on one side but less on the other.
What I'm using the drill more often for is consistent parallel pairs…gt style like above on the lathe. These go into very closely matched dual parallel twisted leads sets. Or twisted center post t.m.c. quads. And that's a very powerful vape at low wattage.
Good luck.
Oooh ok. I haven't had much success with twisted wire, the thing that's been working out the best for me is parallel single coils, with a larger ID, 3 mm to be exact. At least that how I made my most recent coil setup, which is the best working setup I've made to date.
If you use strain to ensure the tightest contact possible for those large winds you will get very uniform insulation of your coils. Consider this…you want the most complete efficient transfer of power to the wick. If insulation is inadequate or defective you'll see temperature variations turn-to-turn. These go much hotter in operation as power is applied and that surplus of thermal energy doesn't vaporize. In other words, you're exceeding the design limit. We only need to get the wire to 270 deg (VG) and as uniform as possible on the media. That's the goal. Consistent symmetry and oxidation of the coil gets you there.
Right now I'm turning out 2.78-3.2mm 7-9 turn coils on 24-26AWG, lots of wick for some really superlative density and vapor…in tanks. I need to hit the middle as you have at about 3mm for some tank tests. That's probably a good fit for typical subΩ's like the Subtank. With a t.m.c. you get a heck of a lot of density which you can then diffuse with airflow, a/f drip tip or adjusting draw (or draw style). Point being I vape at 60W+ on mechs. On t.m.c. tanks I match that performance at well under 25W.
Yep 3mm is goood.
G'luck dD.
@MacTechVpr
One of these days I'm going to read one of your posts all the way through bro. I know you know your stuff. You are, no doubt, the wordiest person in the vaping scene.!
One of these days I'm going to read one of your posts all the way through bro. I know you know your stuff. You are, no doubt, the wordiest person in the vaping scene.!
Sorry, could someone in the know, please kindly answer a couple of noob'ish questions for me, please...
In the question of which ID to choose/is best, is my asumption correct in that the wider the ID, the more cooler it would be, because the added juice in the cotton would cool down more, and so e.g. a wider ID would be good for lunger pulls? Wide for me is 3-3.5mm, btw.
If that's correct, then wouldn't the same result be obtainable from using a lower ID and then lowering the wattage also? I mean so as to obtain the same heat, but with lower battery usage? I'm talking same ohm's obviously...
What i'm getting at, is that many are now using e.g. 3mm contact coils in rta's, and i'm guessing it is for not getting dryburns from higher wattage, but I was just wondering if that wasen't a bit ineffecient, as opposed to e.g. 2mm ID or something.
Lastly, I remember once reading MacTechVpr, stating that he haden't anything against spaced winds, and that they had there place also, so could you Mac, or others in the know, please tell me where in your opinion it makes sence using spaced coils instead of contacts or tmc's. To me, spaced coils give better flavor, but lower vapor/density and so I have to adjust up the wattage higher, which drains my battery faster and gunks quicker, so i'm experimenting back and forth between contacts and spaced winds...
Thanks alot in advance for these noob'ish questions... I use rta's in 12-25watts, and have messed with a lot of builds latelly, and have a hard time finding out what's the best/most effecient with regards to ID...
In the question of which ID to choose/is best, is my asumption correct in that the wider the ID, the more cooler it would be, because the added juice in the cotton would cool down more, and so e.g. a wider ID would be good for lunger pulls? Wide for me is 3-3.5mm, btw.
If that's correct, then wouldn't the same result be obtainable from using a lower ID and then lowering the wattage also? I mean so as to obtain the same heat, but with lower battery usage? I'm talking same ohm's obviously...
What i'm getting at, is that many are now using e.g. 3mm contact coils in rta's, and i'm guessing it is for not getting dryburns from higher wattage, but I was just wondering if that wasen't a bit ineffecient, as opposed to e.g. 2mm ID or something.
Lastly, I remember once reading MacTechVpr, stating that he haden't anything against spaced winds, and that they had there place also, so could you Mac, or others in the know, please tell me where in your opinion it makes sence using spaced coils instead of contacts or tmc's. To me, spaced coils give better flavor, but lower vapor/density and so I have to adjust up the wattage higher, which drains my battery faster and gunks quicker, so i'm experimenting back and forth between contacts and spaced winds...
Thanks alot in advance for these noob'ish questions... I use rta's in 12-25watts, and have messed with a lot of builds latelly, and have a hard time finding out what's the best/most effecient with regards to ID...
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Hey MHz, just picked up on your above but it's a bit late for me to get withya. Most atty's will do reasonably well with a t.m.c. in the 3/32" to 2.5mm range. Good amount of wick for general use. Power will determine your overall output at any dia. and wire gauge. Thicker wire will permit you more power. More wick will give you more overall vapor potential. Too mud power for the wire and/or wick and you will dry it out. So the idea is to find the best resistance for the power you want to apply. On a tank that might be 15W. A mech maybe 45, or more. You'll need some basic reference tools and I'll be back to post those links tomorrow.
Good luck.
Good luck.
Thanks alot, I very much appreciate it! I would appreciate some reference tools greatly!
It's just that superX's original microcoil idea, I believe where effeciency gained in two processes; close wraps for more warmth(watts/mm2) and second and just as important; smaller ID, which I guess was impeeding the cooling effect of the juice/wick. And it was stated that we could use much less power for obtaining the same result.
Now with so many using e.g. 3mm or 3.5mm ID's in contacts or tmc's, then i'm just somewhat confused and thinking if some of the original effeciency isn't lost? I'm a total noob on this and never used more than 25watts, but beginning to experiment some more now Is the bigger ID solelly because we're using higher power now in general, than when superX invented the micro coil? So if e.g. using max 25watts, then is there still any reason to use e.g. 3mm ID?
Could you kindly please also elaborate upon your view on in where spaced winds are appropriate? I remember a blog post from you stating they do have there place, compared to tmc/contacts.
Also finally(sorry!), i've read you before stating a difference between mech's and tanks and I remember you stated e.g. that you could match a mech's power with much less watts on a tank/tmc, so does that mean you don't run tmc's in mechs(rda's ?) and why?
I just want to be able to obtain the highest effeciency in the builds i'm building... Im looking for a pin vice currently, or are there better method for tmc's in your opinion?
Thanks again!
I would appreciate some reference tools greatly!It's just that superX's original microcoil idea, I believe where effeciency gained in two processes; close wraps for more warmth(watts/mm2) and second and just as important; smaller ID, which I guess was impeeding the cooling effect of the juice/wick. And it was stated that we could use much less power for obtaining the same result.
Now with so many using e.g. 3mm or 3.5mm ID's in contacts or tmc's, then i'm just somewhat confused and thinking if some of the original effeciency isn't lost? I'm a total noob on this and never used more than 25watts, but beginning to experiment some more now
Is the bigger ID solelly because we're using higher power now in general, than when superX invented the micro coil? So if e.g. using max 25watts, then is there still any reason to use e.g. 3mm ID?Could you kindly please also elaborate upon your view on in where spaced winds are appropriate? I remember a blog post from you stating they do have there place, compared to tmc/contacts.
Also finally(sorry!), i've read you before stating a difference between mech's and tanks and I remember you stated e.g. that you could match a mech's power with much less watts on a tank/tmc, so does that mean you don't run tmc's in mechs(rda's ?) and why?
I just want to be able to obtain the highest effeciency in the builds i'm building... Im looking for a pin vice currently, or are there better method for tmc's in your opinion?
Thanks again!
...Now with so many using e.g. 3mm or 3.5mm ID's in contacts or tmc's, then i'm just somewhat confused and thinking if some of the original effeciency isn't lost? I'm a total noob on this and never used more than 25watts, but beginning to experiment some more now
Short Answer: More wick, more flow potential and power may be applied. More vapor, more flavor. Use a t.m.c., more efficiency and overall vaporization rate to make use of that thicker wick.
Yes Tmb, don't have time for a full answer but it's all about geometry. Putting the maximum amount of wire in the minimum space…concentrates the potential amount of thermal energy you can apply to a contact patch of wick to wire. The thermal zone of evaporation that is created there is where the heavy lifting occurs. And that is where open (spaced) winds lose efficiency as you spread out that distribution often unable to execute as many turns within the same space. The vapor you get is directly proportional to the wire mass you can put to work in a given area. So is the maximum amount of power or watts you can apply. The more the better and that is why many are discovering that the macro is superior to the micro in being able to handle both more power and wicking as diameter (and wire mass) increases.
Conversely spreading out the wire reduces efficiency often producing a slightly cooler vape with the same wind (turns) and wire length. What I try to explain is that once a t.m.c. is insulated efficiency goes way up (as shorts are eliminated) and you get the same cooling effect (by increased vaporization rate) therefore…you said it, more vapor with less power. Often too, more vapor from the same juice!
Here I have to emphasize, the objective of a contact tensioned microcoil is to create the suitable conditions for the best possible turn to turn oxidation of the wire. It is that insulation process that in practical terms creates a functional complete circuit.
Then comes the awesome discovery that learning to rebuild can give us all a far better vape than we ever imagined. You see, tension winding and the oxidation process itself is a lot like making scrambled eggs. There are many elements like the elimination of asymmetry, gaps and extent or temperature of oxidation that will affect the output of the element. While the band of strain is a rather wide zone we can wind to; oxidation can be layered, for example, tailored to allow for more power. Or kept subtle for a low-voltage cooler vape at moderate wattage. The texture or extent of post vaporization diffusion can be targeted too by the level of strain applied. In the process of learning to tension wind and oxidize there is an infinite variability we can pursue. Just as the multitude of choices of cookware, range tops, temperature goals, surfaces, etc.. And we each of us have distinct preferences of texture and flavor responses we can fine tune the wind for as we start to associate the taste results with our technique. This process begins within the first couple of dozen strained oxidized coils we make. We start to burn in not just the wire but the muscle memory mechanics we used to achieve that favorable delicious outcome.
It's unique for each of us. And that, is a beautiful thing.
Good luck.
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