Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

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DaveP

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Thanks for the info, MacTechVpr. I've been annealing and dry burning at 4.4v just because it gets the new coil to a red state quickly. I think I'll start the pulse at 3.7v from now on and concentrate on lower color temps in the glow and see how that works.

I'm now convinced that the lowest temps would be better for the life of the coil and preservation of the alumina layer.
 

MacTechVpr

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Thanks for the info, MacTechVpr. I've been annealing and dry burning at 4.4v just because it gets the new coil to a red state quickly. I think I'll start the pulse at 3.7v from now on and concentrate on lower color temps in the glow and see how that works.

I'm now convinced that the lowest temps would be better for the life of the coil and preservation of the alumina layer.


Managing t.m.c. oxidation's a breeze!

Think you'll be rewarded if you try. But best advice, breathe! It's important to relax.

First couple of pulses, very quick. Usually, you'll see some slight wisps of vapor. Burn off of residual moisture or perhaps contaminants. Most surface artifacts, likely all, will burn off during the annealing process. So you see all the concern about torching off stuff has been exaggerated in my estimation. Just really think we've enjoyed using our Bernz-O-Matics just a bit much, is all.

Only time you actually need or want to use a persistent red burn is when you think you're about to light end-to-end uniformly. Then a last fire to confirm a consistent burn sets it. Burns of up to one second won't hurt most wire/winds...once you have uniformity. Heat is being more evenly distributed. You have a t.m.c. but you don't want to push it either unwetted. All this typically within about six clicks unless you see any dark segment/s in the wind. Then you must proceed more cautiously and deliberately.

Try to resist the temptation to up the power. coils aren't perfect for many reasons. You will as often as not get some zones, gaps on either side or minute lengths of adjoining wire, sometimes multiples, that remain very slightly but persistently dark/er. Such winds evidence less than perfect adhesion or irregularity of the wire. Try to close these defects and any visible gaps using very, very light pressure of a ceramic tweezers. If you can live with it, go with it. Otherwise, toss and burn in your backup/s. Better than suffering the vape and it only took seconds to wind the extras.

Overheating particularly when you have an imperfect wind will only more quickly oxidize the optimized parts of the circuit. Too hot too fast and BAM...you get a coil that's firing from one end rather than uniformly, not even inside-out...or, a lead that's significantly warmer then the other. In a dual coil pair, that's likely fatal. Often these exceptions are relatively imperceptible unless you lower the lights a bit. So slow and low is actually more in this process. Remember too that we're not forming. Application of external force greater than was input with the wind and adjustments will distort the geometry compromiseing electrical performance. You have in fact a formed coil.

So care and planning should be considered for the installation so that your handling does not push or pull on end-leads so as to skew or accordion the wind (like a stretched slinky). Always try to support the end turn/s with a finger nail tip, fingers or clamps during the termination set. If possible, leave the wind on the bit or mandrel you wound on with end turns supported as you install them. An instrument screwdriver of the same diameter or the pin vise itself if space permits are invaluable to support end turns during the set. As well to encourage bends or turns in leads to tighten them up to the wind. At all times plan on protecting the coherence of the coil once oxidized. Try to anticipate what forces will be applied to the coil.

About the most common mistake you'll make, lol, is to puncture yourself with an end turn during installation. That'll trash it for sure expanding it's radius and disconnecting it from the rest. So I can't emphasize enough to guard them with your life...and try not to hurt yourself!

:D

Good luck.
 
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DaveP

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I'm playing with SS 316L right now in 30ga. I wound a spaced 6 wrap 3mm coil on a Lemo 2 that read about .7 ohms for my smok Koopor Plus 200W. It vapes just fine in wattage mode, but it's severely hot in TC mode.

I set the mode to Temp, SS coil, TCR at .00088, and it's snap, crackle, pop, with a really hot draw. Switch to watt mode and it's a good vape. Go figure.
 
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MacTechVpr

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I'm playing with SS 316L right now in 30ga. I wound a spaced 6 wrap 3mm coil on a Lemo 2 that read about .7 ohms for my Smok Koopor Plus 200W. It vapes just fine in wattage mode, but it's severely hot in TC mode.

I set the mode to Temp, SS coil, TCR at .00088, and it's snap, crackle, pop, with a really hot draw. Switch to watt mode and it's a good vape. Go figure.

Have various TC mod makes/chips for comparison tests of factory coils vs. Kanthal t.m.c. winds, contact and spaced. My experience has been rather the same. TC coils seem to me to run hotter, draw more power to achieve target temps. A more diffuse vape. Haven't gotten into rebuilding these but may at some point. My research has been scaled back quite a bit with less participation on this and the Protank thread by others to help out with feedback. So thanks for your remarks Dave. My goal here has been to try and get new vapers up to speed quickly with a predictable build strategy. Non-resistance wire adds levels of complexity that are a challenge even for experienced rebuilders. My concern comes from the point you make. Think many are opting to run non-res wire in watt mode on TC mods...simply because they're getting better output. This defeats the whole purpose and there is some risk as well that many users will want to cancel out TC to max out vapor production (concentration, density). Personally, I don't see the justification so far with the singular advantage of avoiding burning wicks. Actually seems far more likely anyway if folks bypass TC on these devices.

Kanthal resistance winds are perfect for testing the high end of vapor density and volume for an atomizer. The contact t.m.c. can deliver the maximal wetted contact surface efficiency and it's temperature performance is then predictable and stable. A perfect tool for finding the right balance for one's individual preference. And the excellent baseline then for meaningful real-vape comparisons to alternatives. IF you happen to know how to build one.

Good luck P and thanks for the comeback.

:)
 

MacTechVpr

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A short exchange that may be of interest to new vapers landing here began with this inquiry…

Do you guys mind if Toptank owners post here too or is there a separate thread for that one?

I just made my first coil & was hoping for some feedback.

I did ten and a bit wraps in 26g grade 1 titanium (comes in @0,4ohm) but I can't really get it spaced out evenly (the ti wire is very springy), I know it is far from pretty but will this be a problem in use?

26166190611_cca931d437_b.jpg


My first mod will arrive tomorrow so I'm just trying to get everything ready so I can start vaping as soon as it gets here :)

I think I'll order some 28g too so I can do with a few less wraps for the same resistance, ten seems a little much for the little Kanger RBA.

For all the fundamentals from the basic to advanced on dialing in a precision repeatable baseline build see my posts here and on...

Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!
Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

Give a shout when you have the tools and are ready. Glad to help.

Good luck. :)
 

Rudeboy615

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Is there a reason to add tension to spaced coils (or some other technique)? I haven't tried TMC yet and only have 20 gauge ni80 at the moment but intend on trying it. I have started using spaced coils because I was having issues with contact coils giving me dry hits if I took long puffs (which could be from not using TMC or just user error). I've been enjoying TC because with regular power, I get a longer ramp up time, than puff starts getting too hot so I have to cut it short, especially on higher watts (again probably from not using TCM :D) where on TC I can set the watts high for quick ramp up and can sustain a warm vape. Also, can 22 or 20 gauge kanthal be tensioned?
 

MacTechVpr

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Is there a reason to add tension to spaced coils (or some other technique)? I haven't tried TMC yet and only have 20 gauge ni80 at the moment but intend on trying it. I have started using spaced coils because I was having issues with contact coils giving me dry hits if I took long puffs (which could be from not using TMC or just user error). I've been enjoying TC because with regular power, I get a longer ramp up time, than puff starts getting too hot so I have to cut it short, especially on higher watts (again probably from not using TCM :D) where on TC I can set the watts high for quick ramp up and can sustain a warm vape. Also, can 22 or 20 gauge kanthal be tensioned?

Yep, several…adding rigidity to the wire to facilitate forming and help retain geometry are two, and priceless. We can do away with torching then and lightly pulse to oxidize. This first removes any contaminants and insulates the surface of Kanthal. NiCr also induces an oxidation layer but I can't speak to that as I've done little research with it by comparison to thousands of winds of KA1. You'll still get the benefit a solid coil with strain using the method discussed in the above thread (my last post, see OhTheAgony's quotation link). It describes how to tension wind loose wire with a stepped mandrel and vice. That's how I normally strain parallels, twisted and gauges highers than 24AWG, to answer your last.

All wire is tensioned. The idea is using strain to bring out the best of wire's properties given the application (vaporization) and to make best use of it mechanically (to shape it). When you strain (elongate) wire the work force imparts heat into the metal changing the relationship of its crystalline structure. Not much is required but there seems to be enough reordering to markedly improve electron flow stabilizing operation and improving vapor production (much more than the contact symmetry itself contributes). Readily apparent in a tensioned micro coil by its uniform dry burn surface color temperature but should be observable in wire of other types. The result is they tend to run cooler in operation. Mind you, that's not a bad thing. It's an indication that effecting heat transfer is occurring when the coil is wetted by wicking.

Excessive torching or dry burning, too high a temperature, removes the strain input. Then you're coil will perform as a standard wind. So it's to be avoided as not necessary. You may also begin to degrade the wire surface. Strain's the thing RB. Try it and it will make you happy, consistently.

Good luck. :)

 
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MacTechVpr

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The coil retains it's geometry for a lot longer if it's formed under tension ie it doesn't distort as easily as a coil formed without tension.

Thanks for the backup gt. Love to see it. We need as many vapers as possible rebuilding as effectively as can be.

Good luck. :)
 
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Rudeboy615

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So strain a spaced coil? Can the wire be strained prior to winding or does the crystalline structure retain its wound shape? I first thought strain was only useful to achieve adhesion in order to achieve the best oxidation. Is the oxidation on a spaced coil as good as on a tmc? Do you know the temperature that kanthal start to oxidize or if a coil not dry burned will oxidize? There's a mod with kanthal tc now that could be useful in dry burning.
 

Rudeboy615

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So with a tmc the coil heats up evenly vs from the inside out? There must be a way to measure the exact force needed to achieve adhesion with different gauges, coil diameter, etc... Maybe coil master v7.0 will let you feed the wire on one side and a perfect tmc out the other;)
 

gt_1955

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So strain a spaced coil? ...
Yes, tension the wire during wrapping the coil around a former; I use a machine screw for this. The advantage is the coil retaining it's geometry indefinitely. Of course, you can't "hot" dry burn the coil else you will stress relieve it (anneal it), losing any advantage.

I can't speak for any other advantage as I haven't used kanthal since 2012 ... only nichrome and SS
 

MacTechVpr

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So strain a spaced coil?

Yes, strain wind a spaced coil to induce rigidity and impart form or shape to the wire.

Can the wire be strained prior to winding or does the crystalline structure retain its wound shape?

You can add strain to wire prior to winding. The form or method used to induce tension will alter the wire's shape which will be retained. To help visualize this consider using the edge of a scissors to draw a ribbon across it with tension producing a curl. You can use the same method with a bit or mandrel to arc or straighten wire as well. I introduced pin instrument screwdriver and pin vise winding as two approaches to achieving a precise final shape or form consistently.

I first thought strain was only useful to achieve adhesion in order to achieve the best oxidation.

First, what is adhesion? I use the term generically to mean closest contact. So winding under tension as above allows the shaping of wire into a harder less malleable set of turns in close contact. This is what helps assure the most consistent oxidation, reduces the voltage at which point we may start achieving it and the overall amount of power required to begin seeing the development of beneficial alumina insulation. The outcome is the most important takeaway…we end up with an element in an optimal state of oxidation and in a shape which is far more likely to be persistent. It wants to be a coil.

Is the oxidation on a spaced coil as good as on a tmc?

I look at it the other way around. I think it certainly can be…for a spaced coil. However, since a t.m.c. (tensioned micro coil) initially delivers very high heat it allows a very minimal input of power and pulses to initiate the oxide surface. An open (or spaced) wind may require more pulsing as demonstrated by several users on ECF just to achieve the rigid shape as a first step. It's my belief that effective oxidation occurs after this. I'd add that rigidity (shape) is important for a spaced coil, in the case of Kanthal a surface ceramic layer is also a beneficial advantage in vaping as insulating the material from the vaped media itself.

So with a tmc the coil heats up evenly vs from the inside out?

Heating inside out is pretty common of a standard coil. Open winds fire pretty evenly too if the internal strain is fairly consistent. Not always. Plenty of pics of both all over ECF. Even heat distribution is characteristic of a tensioned micro coil when adhesion was good and oxidation developed well. None of these are perfect. There is always variation. The object is getting to that best result. It's pretty evident when you've put the pieces together right…



And also in the vape regardless of preference. We're talking about the physics. More vapor, more flavor (production).

There must be a way to measure the exact force needed to achieve adhesion with different gauges, coil diameter, etc... Maybe coil master v7.0 will let you feed the wire on one side and a perfect tmc out the other;)

I'm sure there is. And I would ask, how useful would that be? There are too many variations in material composition, roundness specification, internal strain, even millimeter by millimeter. We could achieve I think a rough standard but it would just be close and not necessarily ideal for every kind of resistance, gauge and wire we might put to use to get to a great vape. I would have loved to have come up with a simple solution and patented a device to do that three years ago. However, my continued observations suggest that the skill of the average person to detect such wire variability and to repeatably arrive at closest contact can't be beat. The economies of scale necessary to justify equipment as versatile in its operation to spin up our coils to that precision I believe would likely prove prohibitive. At least for now. So we as individual human rebuilders have a huge advantage. And I'm not looking forward to the vapebot replacing me. We might just disagree.

Detective Del Spooner: Human beings have dreams. Even dogs have dreams, but not you, you are just a machine. An imitation of life. Can a robot write a symphony? Can a robot turn a... canvas into a beautiful masterpiece?

Do you know the temperature that kanthal start to oxidize or if a coil not dry burned will oxidize?

You're not going to find a heck of a lot of commercial literature on the phenomenon of KA1 oxidation. Preparation is a rather specialized application. Manufacturers of equipment using thermal heating elements I'm sure have their own approaches and technology. Since we're talking about efficiency, they're no doubt cautious about their investment in methods.

What I can share is that with a t.m.c. the power required for dry fire pulsing is low and substantially below the red-yellow wire surface temperature boundary I suggest avoiding. Results very satisfactory and typically happen rather inconspicuously for the typical vaper. I haven't taught folks to focus on the oxidation rather achieving closest contact. You see, mastering or training the motor function, our physical skill, is the most important goal to consistent oxidation. Apart from my brief above, an advanced search using "MacTechVpr" and oxidation sorted by Latest will get you my latest posts on this including some instructions.

Then comes the process of discovery of proper oxidation for that final element. Each one unique in it's own way. And…there may be individual preference of extent depending on the juice, device, wattage, etc. Knowledge we start to develop only once we start to see ourselves as we use and enjoy our gear and juice choices. So it's more important to understand the method than to fix an objective and say this is it. I like my steaks medium rare and scorched on the outside...needs to be appreciated first before we build the barbecue pit. But you need a baseline to get to that level of self-awareness. Consider the strain balanced wind as the most tunable and precise knife and fork you've ever devised.

There's a mod with kanthal tc now that could be useful in dry burning.

RB to me the vape temperature that's meaningful is how much heat a wind is putting down per sq. mm. Consider that the more consistent that is for your wind, the more efficient vaporization will be (the less spent to air, thermal loss). A t.m.c. is closer to that theoretical wire optimum (or maximum) as you can get. That's the physics of it, I firmly believe. So I promote using the methods that get us there as directly as possible. That's what gets the new vaper over from the jump and the rest of us to the great vape we long for.

Best of luck! :)
 
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MacTechVpr

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Figured I'd give winding one a go. 9 turns 28g around a 3mm mandril. 1.37 ohms on my iPV4s.

View attachment 547470 View attachment 547471

Yes, that's a Kanger RBA deck.

Quick question... What's the preferred wick for the t.m.c builds?

Niiice! I loved the t.m.c. on the IPV 4s I had and built for others.

Hands down the most neutral and productive wick material I've tested or encountered is Nextel ceramic weave insulation. Temp resistance to almost 3000F makes pulse maintenance ridiculously simple. Just wait until you happen to dry it out (no dry hit, it gives you warning), continue from there to pulse until dry and pigments released. Vape some VG to clear the scorched air from the weave fibers. Back in business, a couple of minutes. Vape it for months. A foot lasts like forever in practical terms. Only presently prepared as wick media by RBA Supplies under the trade name READYxWICK…and here's the result…


Glad you brought the subject up. I posted a fairly good synopsis over the weekend and the thread was shut down. Seems the introduction of a counterpoint was not in order…the thread was about new ceramic coils. So my effort to educate and elucidate continue following this post.

Apart from RxD I use KGD extensively and less frequently organic cotton. Continue to use both to keep a balanced perspective of what others are experiencing. But I taste all wick media and cotton I can't completely cancel out. Still enjoy it outright on occasion. Problem is with the complex flavors I enjoy I have to do wick changes all too often. RxD is a dry burn and wiggle of the wick every few days. A few low power pulses a few cycles of VG and it's practically pristine still sitting on the mod. Can't beat that really and that's in great measure how I keep so many devices going with a variety of juices and DIY tests.

Anyway have a peek following and nudge if needed.

Good luck.

:)
 
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MacTechVpr

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Lifted from the closed thread...There are many people talking about the ceramic coil,have you tried it? | Page 2 | Post 28

Why READYxWICK™ (NEXTEL™)?
.

Well, you should. Nextel (the registered trade name of the base media) is alumina fiber. Same stuff as forms on Kanthal A1 (our most common) wire with the right pulsing. It's ceramic! And do we know of any material that is more flavor neutral in our cooking? As efficiently heat conducting and absorbing? Scorch and stick free?

I've written more than a few lines on the subject of it's flavor accuracy and exceptional performance. Members of the REO's community have long been supporters of this wicking material and for good reason, they're flavor vapers. After a lackluster introduction, as few were actually preparing the wicking properly, folks lost interest. Reading up on it along with the introduction of the microcoil by @super_X_drifter prompted me back in 2013 to quit and succeed. That and efficient rebuilding approaches make this media rock at its true potential. And that can often make other wicks and winds seem anemic by comparison. It's all about vapor density. Some may be skeptical that good flavor is the way to the latter, great production. But the truth is — more vapor, more flavor.


Those of you that are interested, just do an advanced search for Nextel (and/or RxW) and my handle, MacTechVpr.

Good luck all, you too trkr. :)
 
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SLM

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Thanks! I did my "normal" Kanger RBA wicking and it wouldn't wick pure PG fast enough with Japanese cotton. It's always seemed to me less is more on this RDA deck.

On a whim I stuffed it full of Cotton Bacon that I've had sitting here. I think I have too much as the air flow is really restricted but it seems to be keeping up on the juice flow with some 50/50 juice. This is going to take some more experiments, LOL!
 

MacTechVpr

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Thanks! I did my "normal" Kanger RBA wicking and it wouldn't wick pure PG fast enough with Japanese cotton. It's always seemed to me less is more on this RDA deck.

On a whim I stuffed it full of Cotton Bacon that I've had sitting here. I think I have too much as the air flow is really restricted but it seems to be keeping up on the juice flow with some 50/50 juice. This is going to take some more experiments, LOL!

The tank as built and with factory coils in particularly is a pretty dry diffuse relatively high-power vape. It's not a flavor, density device at all unless you put a truly powerful coil in it. And you're right, excess doesn't make it better. It likes plenty tho. Lots of power and flow, both air and juice. And then it performs right up there with the upscale big boy sub ohm tanks.

Drilling out the assembly side wall cylinder at the point of the juice channels improves the flow. Haven't enlarged the channels themselves. Haven't had to. But it helps as you increase diameter right up to the max of my tests at 3.2mm. Base airflow wide open for everything from chaining to clouds. I mitigate vaporization by draw length, covering drip tip slightly (or tight if needed) at the start of the pull to increase inflow pressure and allow more air in at the tip as the coil heats up at the end of the draw. If needed on hot (highly pre oxidized coils) I add an airflow drip tip. But I've grown quite fond of the full bore flow DT's whether Delrin or acrylic, as big as they come. The 2puff style AFC DT's work great with this tank. I also happen to like the two-tone Stingray DT for it's very unique tighter draw. For dry airy clouds to break up a chain, I just let in a lot of air alongside the draw.

What I'm talkin' about above is basically what we all learned to do as second nature as smokers. Our draw style and filter contact changed constantly to allow for more air and adjust for temperature. We did it instinctively. If you're strictly MTL and a straight up simple draw you're missing out.

200.gif


Tell you what. I cut a piece of KGD that's as wide as the distance from the outside of the post to the opposite edge of the coil. About 7-8mm, 1/4-5/16". I carefully remove just one of the sides of combed backing. Roll the backing in (no twisting) very slowly so that the backing is almost a channel on the inside. This material is very fine linear fiber. The thinking is it will help serve to act somewhat like a straw on the inside of the more permeable loose fiber. Stretch this lightly as you pull it through. Wiggle up down to let loose fibers draw through. A pointed forceps may be needed for encouragement. It'll end up tight but not so tight it can't be adjusted backwards without clumping up. The tightness helps to keep up flow speed on the fuller wicking or you'll go soggy with lowered power or when it sits. I hate that.

Anyway some food for thought.

Good luck. :)
 
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MacTechVpr

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Thanks for keeping this ship afloat @MacTechVpr. Been kinda M.I.A. On here lately. But still Vaping like a rockstar.


Thanks to the man who spawned a million micro coil videos (and likely millions of ex smokers)…along with hundreds of millions of dollars in sales and attention for venues who benefitted from it, including this one. So it both intrigues me and saddens me that a search for "microcoil" returns your originating thread...Micro Coils to increase Vapor, flavor & TH only on Page 7. And your "The Greatest Single Video on Vaping Ever" doesn't even play on YouTube anymore. A search for microcoil there returns pages of videos from a funny bearded fellow best known recently for favoring energy drinks. But what makes this innovative adaptation, the contact coil, most advantageous and likely to help folks succeed, the discussion of it, is notably missing from any search of the term microcoil.

Oh where, oh where has our microcoil gone? When it has done so much for so many. Not to state the obvious but we were seeing many tens of thousands of visitors on ECF at the height of the microcoil and t.m.c. What is it now? Just sayin'.

My thanks to you supe and many others who paved the way to inspiration on your above thread.

Good luck. :)

p.s. A Scottish blessing…

May those who love us, love us.
And those who don’t love us,
May God turn their hearts;
And if He doesn’t turn their hearts,
May He turn their ankles,
So we will know them by their limping.
 
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