Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

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MacTechVpr

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Yeah I have found that with the relatively light gauge wire I prefer (28-26 ga) I can not consistently get good coils using anything except a power drill with a 2.8mm bit chucked in it with the wire wrapped around the end of the bit before I chuck it down. Then I grab the free end of the wire with a pair of pliers and pull the trigger so the bit slowly turns while I'm keeping a consistent tension on the wire and the wire angled slightly back so it is nearly at the point of winding on itself.

Perfect coils like the ones in the pic 99% of the time.

They are pretty. I can't quite pull that off with my gear consistently. Even on the RYOBI with a well discharged batt. Still too torquey unless I just let'r go. Just carefully separate out the coils from the run then. No trouble to just de-wind some well matched end turns but end up using a lot of wire. Resorting to that more and more these days with 24AWG. No biggie. If you're left with just the machine wound loops those end turns are far more likely to share the same strain as the rest of the coil. In that sense the jig/drill/lathe pulls are likely to be quite consistent. If you can match that with hand turning you're in good shape. Can with thinner gauges. Getting interesting with the fat wire.

Like you Russ I'm gravitating back towards thinner wire. Really diggin' 25AWG for the slightly higher res over 24g. Didn't fail to notice TEMCO dropped the gauge just before Kanger's explosive intro of the Subtank and larger Ø winds. Think their spec is .5mm (metric) NiChrome.

Tell ya what 25x2 9/8 2.82mm=0.4985Ω (#34 wire gauge, 2.8194mm) has turned into a workhorse of a wind Ø for me. Have used it in everything variable watts. Even works somewhat well as a Nextel wind for 3mm RxD singles (although a bit more compression yields more flavor). Only a 35W (4.2v) build at 9-turns on a mech but you can put some power through it with a box.

Lately I'm groovin' on 24x2 7/6 2.82mmØ=0.3205Ω 25x2 7/6 2.7051mm= 0.3835Ω shootin' for a roughly 3mm coil width for coverage area on mech's. Despite the diff in the latter the thinner wire comes up prrettty close on surface power 187v190mW/mm2 with a slight drop of the Ø. As I mentioned to Slip you've gotta throw 72W at 22AWG and a lot more coverage to get that much power (187mW) to the juice. Now true you've got 4.2mm of that and so more production at .21Ω…but about the same vaporization density. As efficient as a t.m.c. is at conversion the lower aspect wire is diffusing less of that power. So more power to the vape! Nough' said.

So I'm with you Russ on less is often more relatively and you can get a very dense diffusable output (after the fact) from a well thought out wind. Enjoy the benefits of production and flavor…while you still got some battery left! LOL And with 11 of these yokels sittin' in front of me this mornin, don't need to be batt swappin' every 5 mins.

Good luck all.

:)

I don't expect all will agree with me or even understand. I've spent a lifetime of learning and for all the answers, even more questions.

 
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MacTechVpr

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Picked up from my post on thermal output and efficient coil design, some suggestions…Subtank RBA builds? show em! | Page 21 | Post #408
Thanks! :) I'm kind of enjoying wrapping different coils just for fun! I need to remember I made three different mandrils to wrap on. I have a 2, 2.5 and 3. I always grab the 2. :-\

This may be a bit OT here but is the idea to keep the heat flux low?

Heat flux is the measure of thermal output. What's good is the level of warmth you enjoy. That gets the max out of the juices you like. Some are really full cool. Many require warmth like tobacco. But not too hot or you mute flavors. Usually the accents.

I enjoy a range roughly between 150-200 mW/mm² although I do go a bit lower and sometimes considerably higher. Generally towards the higher with 18650's, lower with 18490 mech's. With variables I go for the highest capacity I can handle and is best for the chip. See Mod range | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators.

I'd suggest building (and bookmarking) some variations labelled as I have with some of the parameters like Ø, turns, etc. so you can compare them side by side. Choose the wattage input your most likely to enjoy in each one to force the mW/mm² calculation. I use the output wattage at 4.2v at the wound resistance for mechs. It'll be different for each wind. For variables, I use my maximum target wattage at the usually optimal resistance for the box. You'll start to get a sense of what you can expect after you build a few using this approach. And also to learn to match as best as possible the output of your mechs to what your getting out of your variables.

There ya go. Have at it, and good luck!

:)

p.s. Calc your total thermal output vs total surface area of your wind/s. However…consider always that it's wetted contact surface that delivers the energy. Aspect ratio of the wire can send more of it out to air diffusing the vape (not vaporization). Even more so for multi wire. This means you're going to require more power and need to design the build for it. Why I recommend a properly oxidized contact coil for beginners so they can appreciate what an efficient wind can deliver.
 
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DaveP

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Loving the coil designs in this thread (and the tools you guys use to make them).

I have the Gizmo that I bought from Hobby Lobby. I used drill bits before the Gizmo and they all produced a great looking coil. I never found a good place to attach and leave the Gizmo set up for coil making. For some reason, my wife didn't think the kitchen table was a good place and our outside entrance basement wasn't a convenient place to go for making one coil.

One day I was on Amazon and saw the coil winder mandrel. While I like all the other methods for winding a coil, the mandrel has been my go to coil winder for over a year now. It's just way too simple to grab, wind, compress, and remove.

Amazon.com: 5.5" Step Mandrel For Wire Bending In 5 Sizes: 1/2mm, 2, 3, 4, & 5mm

41Bi1Qb5OGL._SL1000_.jpg
 
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DaveP

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Zoidman posted a Fasttech link for prewound coils the other day. They have any size wire, resistance, diameter, width, length, or wire type you want in packages of 50 coils for $5 and under, give or take.

$3.76 Nichrome Pre-Coiled Wires for Rebuildable Atomizers (50-Pack) 50-pack - 28 AWG / 1.1ohm / 0.3mm dia. / 21*31.5mm leads at FastTech - Worldwide Free Shipping

The link above says .3mm diameter, but the description on the page says 3mm, which would be the right diameter for 1.1 ohm 28ga wire. For some reason, all their link descriptions are this way, but the text at the page is right.

They take Paypal. I just found that out. I never wanted my credit card number to be used in China. I might just try a bag or two and see how they work and if they come in nice and round and not squashed flat in shipping
 
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MacTechVpr

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Zoidman posted a Fasttech link for prewound coils the other day. They have any size wire, resistance, diameter, width, length, or wire type you want in packages of 50 coils for $5 and under, give or take.

$3.76 Nichrome Pre-Coiled Wires for Rebuildable Atomizers (50-Pack) 50-pack - 28 AWG / 1.1ohm / 0.3mm dia. / 21*31.5mm leads at FastTech - Worldwide Free Shipping

The link above says .3mm diameter, but the description on the page says 3mm, which would be the right diameter for 1.1 ohm 28ga wire. For some reason, all their link descriptions are this way, but the text at the page is right.

They take Paypal. I just found that out. I never wanted my credit card number to be used in China. I might just try a bag or two and see how they work and if they come in nice and round and not squashed flat in shipping

Thanks for the info Dave. Have had good luck with FT and sampled stuff I was reluctant to drop the $ on 'till I tried it. Mostly drip tip versions as airflow has been one of the key areas of my research along with coils. And I have hundreds of varieties, let me tell ya. So FT's been very helpful and not as scary as some might think. They're certainly not the only foreign vendor I've relied upon but I do prefer to personally collect authentic production. And admittedly Zenesis/Steam Monkey make up the bulk of my collection for their durable engineering and finish. Hate the fiddly screw contacts but the v2 counter-rotating help. Guess nothing is perfect.

Back OT and for the record tensioned microcoils achieve a different level of performance than a non-strained coil. I know peeps are going to look at them side by side and say what's the diff? Well there is, electrically. It relies on two factors. Sufficient strain to reach adhesion as defined elsewhere; as well, that it's based on authentic Kanthal. Nichrome doesn't oxidize as in the same manner or as reliably to build the durable alumina layer one may see with Kanthal. That's also been discussed and validated elsewhere by many others. That's the topic here. Hopefully, getting folks to take on the simple challenge of learning how to effectively wind one in 30-secs or less and getting it to that prepared oxidized state within a few low-voltage pulses.

Advocate using something like a pin vise, jig or the Gizmo which you're familiar with to ensure uniform (contact) consistency. It's important in any wind, symmetry. Have seen standard hand windings of Kanthal perform as well in producing end-to-end firing performance and uniformity. From my experience working with a great many folks including pro rebuilders, they were winding with a lot of strain (good hands too). Maybe you as well are achieving balanced strain. If so bro, enjoy the vape.

:) Good luck and keep up the fight.
 

MacTechVpr

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My answer to @suprtrkr on why I love contact coils (wetted surface area) Need advise to setup my mech mod to produce biggest cloud | Post #10. Love clouds and multi-wire to get there but how do we get there?

(
The Fuchai is going to make a lot bigger cloud than anything you can get on a one-battery mech. Of the 3 attys you mention, I think you'll get the best cloud out of the Alliance. It looks to me like it has the best air of all of them, plus the top chamber to let the vapor boil and cool it some, and air is what you need for cloud (in addition to power and juice, of course.) I think I would probably set it up with something like 2x28/32 fused Claptons coiled in the .2-.3 range-- get much lower and you start to lose surface area-- and crank the watts on the Fuchai until your throat sears. On the AR... well, it's a one battery tube. It just doesn't have the power a regulated mod can produce because you're limited to battery voltage. Even if you bought LG HB6 batteries for it-- you'll need a handful, they'll be flat in just a few hits, only 1100mAh-- and took it to 30 amps, you still can't get much over 120ish watts. Even that requires a .15 coil and that low a mech starts to run into voltage drop problems. Safe or no, efficiency in a mech starts to fall off below .25 or so. The Fuchai will beat that all hollow. That 454 is pretty interesting, but with quads you start to run out of room under the top cap pretty quick and each of the individual coils has to be smaller; plus the arrangement of the deck is such you just about have to run verticals and that makes it hard to tuck the upper tail back to the deck for additional juice transport. For cloud, surface area (plus tall power) is where you want to be. I'll bet you can get more surface area in dual fused claptons than in quad slick wire wraps.

The 454 Big Block is about one of the finest all-around RDA's I've ever run across. Really amazing. Somewhat limited in cap for large coils and could use more airflow but tremendous production for what it does. Had the good fortune to run into the maker at the Tampa trade show and bought a bunch of these. Lately took advantage of localvape's closeout. Have large airflow devices or make 'em so but keep on returning to this little honey for the balance of flavor and overall production. A very underestimated atty.

Only differ with you @suprtrkr on the subject of contact area. The most theoretically productive would be flat wire. But with purely flat too great a length to height ratio (of coil overall) and its too much a tube to provide efficient egress of vapor (fry your wick). And no matter how many nooks and crannies in multi-wire, it's only wetted contact surface that vaporizes. A higher aspect ratio of wire produces more diffusion. Too much and this fails for lack of actual production. Regardless of airflow. In fact, made worse by it. A thought experiment for finding the balance in what you like and do.

I'd say most important to learn how to get wire to produce in its basic form. Learn how to rebuild efficiently. To understand these electrical limits of wire, devices and cells. Then, you can be master of your vaping domain. Less guessin'.

Good luck :)

 

MacTechVpr

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Slip, not sure I follow on the chinaco thing. Was it something I said?

But thanks for the nod slip. Just wish I had more time to do more big builds and stretch the ideas I'm talkin' about. Spent the better part of two years building twisted behind the scenes as I talked up tensioned contacts. Really like passin' on the idea of why things work than the work itself. Anybody can do a coil, gettin' it, that's another matter. But you really have to if you wanna do it twice. Know that prolly bores some. But there's enough out there and we all get there in time, that'll really want to settle into something they really like well enough to reproduce. Keep up the pic's slip. It's those from you and others that got me here.

Good luck.

:)
 
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SLIPPY_EEL

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Slip, not sure I follow on the chinaco thing. Was it something I said?

But thanks for the nod slip. Just wish I had more time to do more big builds and stretch the ideas I'm talkin' about. Spent the better part of two years building twisted behind the scenes as I talked up tensioned contacts. Really like passin' on the idea of why things work than the work itself. Anybody can do a coil, gettin' it, that's another matter. But you really have to if you wanna do it twice. Know that prolly bores some. But there's enough out there and we all get there in time, that'll really want to settle into something they really like well enough to reproduce. Keep up the pic's slip. It's those from you and others that got me here.

Good luck.

:)

Heyup Mac!:)
The chinaco question was cuz of you saying about trying cheap drip tips etc from dif company's in china, or atleast thats what i thought you ment, ive used FT a lot but havent used any others and was curious as to what others were about.
Thanks buddy
 

MacTechVpr

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Heyup Mac!:)
The chinaco question was cuz of you saying about trying cheap drip tips etc from dif company's in china, or at least that's what i thought you ment, ive used FT a lot but havent used any others and was curious as to what others were about.
Thanks buddy

You've prolly caught one or more of my posts about using airflow drips for diffusion off of density builds (to get even greater volume). Also raw hot density chokes a lot of peeps even off somethin' as simple as a clearo. Been talkin' bout that a long time. You can force greater airflow to support more powerful builds by using wide bores or a/f drips. Even on tanks with narrow chimney's. That started back in the early Protank t.m.c. discussion. Yeah, bought every cheap variety I can find. A lot from China. And I replace the ones I like with originals where possible.

Well, the idea's been to encourage folks build to a tight symmetry to achieve efficiency and not rely just on the wind for heat diffusion. All heat energy not vaporizing is less we have to work with. Comes a point it's self-defeating. Holy gospel I've been preachin'...be the coil. What it needs. Yeah, so I've bought every cheap variety I can find. A lot from China. And I replace the ones I like with originals where possible. Rather have more tip/draw options than devices. Is there a specific producer? Heck, I wish there were a hundred of 'em.

Drip tips and how to improve on 'em and usin' em. That's a whole 'nother convo.
Good luck. :)
 
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MacTechVpr

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I'm all ears. :)

Well, the basic gist is you can either increase the bore of a drip tip to drive more air at the coil. If you're frequently saturated, sucking up juice (sometimes spitting, for example). Lots fail with this approach tho because its air at velocity and juice flow must keep up with that. So you must build to more efficiency. Precise functional coil and/or more wicking. Where the t.m.c. and proper application of strain come in. Symmetry and all that good stuff we talk about on the Protank thread. The alternative to wider bore is an air flow drip tip. This is helpful on most new tanks and smaller atty's as it's easy, most built for sub ohm operation these days, to provide too much air. Excessively cooling the coil though throttles vaporization (velocity faster than flow). Why I talk about matching the wind/power to air and juice flow.

The basic strategy is, at the maximum of power that you enjoy...

• Fit the maximum coil geometry supported (without distortion or skewing);
• Fit/find the fullest of wicking the atty/coil will support to provide maximal flow;
ª Fit/find/apply the maximal airflow (base, post-vape tip air flow);

You can always bring power down, or will naturally if a mech, if you've built for that highest supported threshold (taking battery into consideration). But you can't apply more power than you've designed and built for. With a t.m.c. you may find you can handle more power than you were used too (cooler avg output). Great, enjoy the greater vapor and flavor production or the cooler denser normal at the production level you're used to, if you prefer/like that.

• Balance preceding as required for the temperature that pleases you; and,
• Adjust draw as needed.

Post vape a/f adjustment now lets you fine tune a drier or denser result from the increased output. Along with an a/f base to adjust the density itself, you gain a lot of variability if you're like me and enjoy change every day on every device. A maximum bore friction fit direct flow wide bore is ideal if you have a practiced draw. You can adjust final density with each draw. This for me changes with mood from wanting big large pulls to dense repeated draws chaining.

And the great thing is with your build, base, tip and draw you can do this all on one device. Amazing! The assumption here, that you'll couple this with an efficient oxidized contact coil, or as close as you can.

Now would someone please explain, why I have so many of them?

:D

Good luck.
 

DaveP

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I've always used a mini torch to anneal my wire before winding. It just makes the process more exact, since the wire loses its springiness after annealing and it retains the shape during installation. I've also heard that annealing can change the chemistry and the physical properties of the wire and introduce outgassing of metal molecules.

Dry burning has also been touted as a negative, with pulsing being an alternative to dry burning to a cherry red state. Any comments on the proper way to clean a coil while doing a re-wick?

If it's true that bringing resistance wire to a cherry red state is a negative, then every toaster in the world is a source of dangerous particles when heated. Is the controversy over dry burning just being overly paranoid or is it a real concern?

I do notice that after a few rewicks with a short dry burn that the wire eventually takes on a dull, rusty appearance. At that point, I just wind a new coil. typically, I get a month or maybe two before the coil looks like it's at end of life.
 

MacTechVpr

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I've always used a mini torch to anneal my wire before winding. It just makes the process more exact, since the wire loses its springiness after annealing and it retains the shape during installation. I've also heard that annealing can change the chemistry and the physical properties of the wire and introduce outgassing of metal molecules.

Dry burning has also been touted as a negative, with pulsing being an alternative to dry burning to a cherry red state. Any comments on the proper way to clean a coil while doing a re-wick?

If it's true that bringing resistance wire to a cherry red state is a negative, then every toaster in the world is a source of dangerous particles when heated. Is the controversy over dry burning just being overly paranoid or is it a real concern?

I do notice that after a few rewicks with a short dry burn that the wire eventually takes on a dull, rusty appearance. At that point, I just wind a new coil. typically, I get a month or maybe two before the coil looks like it's at end of life.

How do we turn out a safe and effective heating element?

Good question and as a reminder to those more recently landing on this thread...Some months back the issue of torching coils came to an ugly head when Dr. Farsalinos suggested this might be a negative as you say. Well, he happened to be right. But we should never say never. The subject was thoroughly analyzed by many posters including materials specialists and many far more knowledgeable than myself on the thread...The end of microcoils? | E-Cigarette Forum.

Bottom line is, YES, dry burning with a torch especially with random inconsistent temperatures may expose wire to overheating stressing the material, Kanthal included. Same applies to pulse dry burning (for oxidation). Such extraordinary temperatures might result in off-gassing of undesirable chemistry which varies by wire composition. So should we not torch or dry-burn wire? That conclusion would be arguably excessive and for the very same reasons, the unpredictability of various factors that may apply. Simply, that there is a reasonably safe straightforward way to accomplish electrical annealing.

How do we make it predictable? So that we can avoid these potentials, there must be a reasonably precise method or technique?

Aware of Kanthal's potentials for alumina development of its surface it seemed to me that breakdown voltage could be raised enough to make an effective thermal contact coil feasible. That's to acknowledge that contact coils are essentially shorts and will go hot without this. Knowing too that pin vise winding was both practical and simple to do I began a program of study and development which expanded to ECF on the ergonomics and mechanics of completing contact coils to a reliable state of stability electrically. That is what a tensioned micro coil achieves.

The objectives of the wind are to arrive at sufficient and uniform turn-to-turn internal wire strain for adhesion (closest turn-to-turn proximity, cold working) and the resulting symmetry of the element derived from the added rigidity. The completion of the coil then becomes possible, uniform oxidation, in practical terms. If as consistent as possible and made more likely by the preceding you get as close as humanly possible (perhaps more precise than even machine production as wire varies greatly) to an optimal heating element as we might see. All this is made feasible by the simple technique of feel to detect the optimal closest proximity for that wind much as we rely on hearing to detect frequency. Secondly, we now can pulse at rather low voltages and infrequently to begin to induce the oxidation process. The degree of practiced consistency whether by hand or jig quickly demonstrates visually the extent of success of adhesion we attained. In this way, in a matter of seconds you know whether the wind is viable or not. That's the technique. No misses, no guessing.

You do lose some of the rigidity with pulsed oxidation, even at the low voltage that forms the symmetry. But typically if you do not overheat the wire it's just enough to induce the start of alumina formation. Enough is then retained to keep the coil wanting to remain a coherent segment. You need much higher energy inputs of external heat and manual forcing (compression) to unite turns to coherence otherwie. Far too much work, ultimately inconsistent and unreliable vs. a tensioned micro.

My argument advocating tensioned winding vs. coilers is that without controlling strain you are still merely forming the wire. Far more energy and force must be applied than the inputs from pulsing. Balanced strain radically reduces the need for power even more! So there is far less chance of overheating, distorting or damaging the wire or its surface. That means at the end of the day that we expose Kanthal to far lower temperatures than by other approaches.


How great can you get? Especially for a beginner. Folks have been building coils in this way for thousands of years. Not, forcing or banging or artistically trying to shape wire into a congruous state. Think about it. Why struggle when nature (physics) provides the answer?

Sorry for the long summation but I'd neglected to speak to the subject overall since the mentioned thread above. There are good and sound reasons why every new vaper should be encouraged to learn what strain can do for wire and the wind. It's part and parcel of how we can achieve the best performance and reliability (safety) from Kanthal. Once we see just how well it can produce a whole new dimension of vaping opens to us.

Good luck and thank you very much for the question.

:)
 
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DaveP

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MacTechVpr, the image_1559a link in your post above apparently requires permission to view. I get this:
E-Cigarette Forum - Error
You do not have permission to view media within this album.

There has to be some heat level that will anneal the wire without causing serious concerns for vapers. Guitar strings are stretchy wires until they take a set after installation. Kanthal is aggravating to deal with if it springs back or won't hold position during installation.

So, if I understand correctly it's considered better to pulse and not bring a new coil to cherry red when oxidizing it? That made me wonder if torching without touching the tip of the flame to the wire might be equally as good. The red glow occurs, in my experience, when the hottest part of the flame hits the wire. Holding it back and heating lightly might be a good way to kill the springiness and start alumina formation without scorching and creating a safety hazard in the vape, or maybe not.

When I dry burn a new coil and douse it under the tap to cool, the surface becomes a shiny grey. After multiple dry burns over weeks, it begins to appear somewhat rusty. When the shine is gone, I trash the coil and wind another.
 
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MacTechVpr

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Here's the raw link...

The end of microcoils?

The end of microcoils?

And the Permalink to the OP on that thread...

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/the-end-of-microcoils.675754/ microcoils?

The end of microcoils? | E-Cigarette Forum

What's odd is that the original links is the standard BB code automatically carried forward when you drag-and-drop the url to the text editor, shown here without ".com"...

The end of microcoils? | E-Cigarette Forum (still resolves, functional for me)

Please let me know which you can reach. Thank you.

:)

p.s. I can't see the raw (plain) text of the link as you see it from your reply.
 
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DaveP

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MacTechVpr, I did read the link you posted where Dr Farsolina talked about dry burning Kanthal. It was the image link farther down in the post that was locked.

I suspect that the danger is real at some point, but there has to be a lower level short of cherry red that is safe to use for annealing. My quick and simple Google research shows that my propane torch can reach temps as high as 3600F at the tip of the blue flame portion. Kanthal melts at around 2700F.

The Kanthal coil is bright silver when I start and a dull shiny grey when I get through with torch annealing, so I have obviously created a layer of alumina or something. Without the dry burn, it's usually close to a dead short on first fire button press. I'd hate to have to loosen the coils to vape, although some swear by loosely wound coils. I used to use the needle and silica method to recoil factory heads. :)

Thanks for the info. It's made me think a little differently about bright red dry burning. I think I'll try the pulse method and see if that's satisfactory. I like for my coils to last a month or two.
 

Katya

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Mac and Dave. I think there's been a change of ECF parameters, somewhere. Other people have problems, too, especially with [ MEDIA ] files. They just don't show anymore. I don't know if it's permanent or if ECF is in the process of updating/upgrading software.
 

MacTechVpr

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...There has to be some heat level that will anneal the wire without causing serious concerns for vapers. Guitar strings are stretchy wires until they take a set after installation. Kanthal is aggravating to deal with if it springs back or won't hold position during installation.

Absolutely, there is. The very reason that folks started torching coils, to address the wires ductility or pliability (make it harder, tempered). These kinds of changes affect the wire's internal structure. Sometimes if this is inconsistent or overdone the worse for performance. Symmetry in form and structure is what ultimately yields predictable uniform thermal output with Kanthal elements.

So, if I understand correctly it's considered better to pulse and not bring a new coil to cherry red when oxidizing it? That made me wonder if torching without touch the tip of the flame to the wire might be equally as good. The red glow occurs, in my experience, when the hottest part of the flame hits the wire. Holding it back and heating lightly might be a good way to kill the springiness and start alumina formation without scorching and creating a safety hazard in the vape, or maybe not.

Yes, you're correct there is a minimal amount of power required and it varies by wire gauge. So I better describe it as a starting point in voltage.

The hottest part of the flame at the tip may be approaching or over 2000 deg F. You definitely do not need to go there. That is beyond the point Kanthal wire may start to be degraded from my rev of its properties. More than the energy needed to anneal or oxidize the wire.

For 29/20 AWG 2mmØ winds below 3.5V is adequate for achieving uniform oxidation. With thicker wire you'd need more power (W) proportional to the differential of wire mass but about the same V. For 25 AWG 1.75mmØ singles, I start at about 12.5W on a variable for example. Dark cherry red repeatedly and ultimately a slightly longer fractional second at the red/orange threshold. This last assuming the burn reveals no dark spots or zones confirming uniform firing at the desired color temp end-to-end (not inside out). That is characteristic of a t.m.c. that's achieved uniform adhesion.

Seldom much more power is needed to induce a uniform red fire and by then you've visibly reached a uniform oxidation color as well. Some may be perfect end to end, some not. Depends on the consistency of adhesion and always some small gaps may remain, if only due to minute irregularities in wire thickness, straightness...in short any variation. The straighter, cleaner, undistorted, un-marred the wire finish, the more likely uniform development.

I've documented some examples on the PT, REOs and Subtank thread I think, including links to the appropriate wire surface color temp charts. As well on the linked thread discussing this theme from my previous post. Happy to help if I can.

When I dry burn a new coil and douse it under the tap to cool, the surface becomes a shiny grey. After multiple dry burns over weeks, it begins to appear somewhat rusty. When the shine is gone, I trash the coil and wind another.

The gray you describe could very well be part of the alumina scaling sloughing off. What causes it to do that? Temperature...heat and rapidly accelerated by high rates of oxidation (exposure to water). Is that the goal? Or is it a stable alumina layer?

Understand that what we're talking about are only the beginnings of oxidation, a few microns thick. Perhaps not even uniform alumina. However, it is sufficient to achieve an adequate barrier of insulation to effect circuit flow, i.e. a balanced surface thermal output. And that's what we want. Experimented with tempering in various ways to accelerate the process and blew right past what was needed. We're using too high temperatures for annealing. Bottom line without getting into the physics of alumina, it's not necessary as the product is easily confirmed by personal experiment at low voltage. We just slowly go to uniform red with a t.m.c. on our device. In every application, every device, every wind, etc. it's going to be slightly different. Now try and duplicate human responses for those variables in automation. It's why I never wrote a half-a-book on the subject here because it was just too easy to encourage folks to try.

There you go, Dave, you inspired me to do more today than I expected. But it's for a good cause. I'd love to see more new vapers trying this, starting out this way attempting to master the effects of strain in their builds. Proper oxidation will impressively stabilize winds and proportionately increase efficient vapor production. If we start with simple winds we quickly see the phases Kanthal goes through to get to that stable output. With a few winds, it becomes easily repeatable as I've observed with a wide variety of folks. It's a WOW moment when you get it as much as the t.m.c. itself. But it is the very purpose of making one.

Good luck D.

:)
 
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