Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

[Cheallaigh]

okay made my joke about it in the other thread... it makes me cringe looking at it really, I know the ceramic wicks can handle it with typically no damage... but I'm a cotton user.

wicks is one thing, like you said the braided etc... but the solid ceramic ones that came with the pro tank4... I started at 15 watts and was breaking it in, by time I hit 25 watts my tank was so hot I was worried about it destroying the flavour of the juice. thinking I possibly had a bad coil, I grabbed the one from my hubby's and got the same results. I want my juice vaped, not boiled then vaped. both our tanks are just about perfect now with dual 28g twisted SS316 or the 28g kanthal claptons(.3 for me and .5 for him).. I still don't have a way to make decent tensioned coils.

 

[MacTechVpr]

okay made my joke about it in the other thread... it makes me cringe looking at it really, I know the ceramic wicks can handle it with typically no damage... but I'm a cotton user.

wicks is one thing, like you said the braided etc... but the solid ceramic ones that came with the pro tank4... I started at 15 watts and was breaking it in, by time I hit 25 watts my tank was so hot I was worried about it destroying the flavour of the juice. thinking I possibly had a bad coil, I grabbed the one from my hubby's and got the same results. I want my juice vaped, not boiled then vaped. both our tanks are just about perfect now with dual 28g twisted SS316 or the 28g kanthal claptons(.3 for me and .5 for him).. I still don't have a way to make decent tensioned coils.

Could be, the symmetry on factory coils has gotten better but it's not on par with what we make. Wicking isn't always on point either. But anything externally wicked is never gonna be as juicy as a good tight wind open or closed.

IMG_0955a

• MacTechVpr
• Jun 25, 2016

Cotton or synths concentrate flow in an internal wick. That speeds flow and so potential for greater vaporization. External wicks are great for a diffuse vape. But vaped hard and hot they can go dry. That's been my experience trying everything I can get a hold of. OTH, you can vape a braided ceramic at 45W and the flow is spectacular. The pic (Post #1580) was actually a test burn in @ ~25W before cappin' it. It's mentioned earlier in this thread.

Still use a lot of KGD as I've been vapin' it since Russ introduced it and have a penchant for it with the flavors I started on with it and enjoyed. Nextel's a piece of cake tho. There are specific wind Ø's that max out it's performance so there's no guessing what works. Then you get the exact vape you expected each and every time without fail, variation or adulteration of the recipe's flavor whatsoever (no organic signature). But if you love cotton, you gotta have it. And I do with some juices I love with it and don't mind rewicking for.

I love repeatability, what can I tell ya.

Good luck.

 

[Cheallaigh]

btw I found a sweet little rig at a hobby store, while trying to find a replacement for my fly-tying one. I tried to use it all of once. when I told the hubby I needed some C or D clamps, he insisted I find a new spot and not my expensive computer desk... so it's not setup.

 

[MacTechVpr]

btw I found a sweet little rig at a hobby store, while trying to find a replacement for my fly-tying one. I tried to use it all of once. when I told the hubby I needed some C or D clamps, he insisted I find a new spot and not my expensive computer desk... so it's not setup.

Went thru a long phase of tool acquisition, furniture and home modification myself, lol. Always looking for the ideal place and way to wind. Don't think there's a perfect one. But why I often kid about being a fly fisherman. Finally settled on one of my first and simple solutions…I pull out a desk drawer a cpl'a inches, stick a pin vise in with a bit or screw vertically, the business end up, and double-clamp it in the corner. It's convenient to align a large illuminated magnifying lamp or cams I have there to the work then. Well, at least, that was the idea on the latter. It's stable for me up to 22g and even to tightly strain parallels.

Try photo/studio resources for miniature rubber insulated c-clamps. I've found a few that were helpful, if a bit pricey.

Good luck.

 

[Cheallaigh]

wish I had a pic... from its base it goes up to a T-shaped adjustable bar about 6" long with an magnifying glass attachment, on either end of that there is adjustable strong gator grips.

I miss my fly tying gear, some of it would be seriously handy for this, I'm still keeping an eye out.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Some notes on uneven firing, hotspots and maintenance from my remarks on Dual Coil Problem | Post #12 | E-Cigarette Forum…

You never mentioned what resistance your coils are at..
When building a dual coil build I check the resistance after one coil is installed..then install the other one and total resistance should be half of the first coil..
I say this because I have caught myself missing a wrap or even adding a wrap rolling the two coils..it happens, and when it does my coils don't burn even.
One is always brighter than the other dry firing..
I've always had problems with the higher gauge wires like 28g up having hot legs as well..
Today I run 22, 24 and 26g Nichrome in all my builds, as these heavier wires burn evenly when installed correctly.
When new coils are installed I check resistance on a separate dedicated ohmmeter for accuracy..
Like 9 wraps of 24g Nichrome on a 3mm bit reads about 0.28 ohms for dual coils...I pulse the power at around 50w and once they are glowing evenly squeeze the wraps together while they're still hot with a pair of small needle nose pliers...install the cotton wicks, prime real well and Walla! Ready to take my first hit.. just sayin what works for me and good luck with your build.


Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

You come right to the point. Variations in resistance graduate output. But apart from simple error, it is symmetry in production and application that assure parity of d/c operation. Why I've promoted the use of strain as an aid to assure consistency. Then you get this…




For a variety of reasons like differences in termination contact which should be cleared even if surface wire temps are close, you'll get unbalanced output. Once this starts if allowed to persist, it will. Even if you have a perfectly matched and uniformly oxidized pair it can develop in operation. Screws back off for example. More or less than adequate wicking contact can create more accretion on one part of an element. You dry burn these and suddenly find you're unbalanced in temp.

Found that a minute bit of water, drop fractions, applied to hot zones or the hotter coil, will ...... a wind's ramp up. This serves to help bring up heat on a laggard coil suppressing the effect of the higher resistance. Applied judicially, enough to produce the required lag of the hotter side, this will get the winds quickly firing in tandem. Keep a small bottle of distilled with a metal needle tip handy at all times. Also routinely hit points of accretion in use when detected. This keeps the twins smiling.

Good luck.

 

[Kingboomer]

Ok back to it. Been a while, and here's my thoughts on tension winding SS:

While it does make for a uniform coil, it still heats from the inside out. Now it might be user error, but I still have to rake the coil a few times to get it to fire evenly. The only benefit I can see is that it makes for a purdy coil . Sorry no pics, damn phone takes terrible pics, and I have no camera available ATM.


-Kingboomer

 

[muzichead]

I still have to rake the coil a few times to get it to fire evenly.

Actually, this is so 2014... If you take the mandrel you wrapped your coils on and run it back and forth through the coil after firing it works quicker and more efficiently... The raking can move your coils and create gaps...

 

[Kingboomer]

Actually, this is so 2014... If you take the mandrel you wrapped your coils on and run it back and forth through the coil after firing it works quicker and more efficiently... The raking can move your coils and create gaps...

Gonna have to try that. Thanks!


-Kingboomer

 

[MacTechVpr]

Gonna have to try that. Thanks!

-Kingboomer

Actually, this is so 2014... If you take the mandrel you wrapped your coils on and run it back and forth through the coil after firing it works quicker and more efficiently... The raking can move your coils and create gaps...

Muz, with ya on reinserting the coil helps. Raking can throw off the wind's pitch angle or concentric turn-to-turn relationship or relative strain. All these things individually or combined being off can keep the coil from firing evenly. I try not to take the coil of the bit if at all possible. The natural movement you apply with the bit inserted as you set it (pull very slightly against posts) tends to equalize the preceding if present and not severe (usually not even visible). But running the bit through again can do the same for those that don't like to use the pin vise and bit for the set. Best obviously is to wind as consistently in tension as possible. And I find working tightly right off the spool delivers the best control of strain and attack (pitch) angle. The latter can skew the coil if too tight (impacting diameter) or stretching the pitch which skews the wind and changes the strained surface contact point. It can if too much actually introduce a minute loss of contact. If severely skewed it's not a t.m.c. at all.

Closed coils firing inside-out are not operating at uniform thermal efficiency.

If you have a consistent turn-to-turn contact you will need neither insertion or raking. Then, within a few low voltage pulses, YOU WILL start seeing subtle pale surface bluing. You are on your way. Depending on your environment some soft blowing on the coil may help speed development (I'm at sea level). How much power and pulses to apply varies with wire mass. Too many variables to universally detail in steps but that once you learn to begin oxidation it will progress naturally if not rushed. Again, you gain the fine motor control and hand-eye coordination to regulate firing.

This is not a skill I have the capacity to describe any more than playing violin. The only thing I can assure all who've read so far is that without any doubt the average person is blessed with the incredible precision of detection and execution to accomplish the result. It becomes a simple process with just a bit of patience to not burn through the process.

Tensioned Twisted-lead Parallel for the Subtank

• MacTechVpr
• Feb 4, 2016

I'd bet good money if you can build a good oxidized t.m.c. you wouldn't ever be long without one. It's just that simple to make and the results just that damned good. But the measured nuances of wind and burn must be individually learned through thoughtful practice and observation. The good is there for the taking.

As always, here to help if I can.

Good luck all.

p.s. Just sayin', I have 28 t.m.c.'s actively vaped as of today, from a day to several months in operation, auditioning 7 different juice recipes between them.

 

[Rudeboy615]

Is there a need to oxidize a spaced coil even though it heats up evenly from the get go? Would it be healthier not to oxidize it compared to low power dry firings as far as not damaging the kanthal? How do you clean the coil for rewicking, high power dry burn? Is that safe on a already oxidized coil?

 

[MacTechVpr]

Is there a need to oxidize a spaced coil even though it heats up evenly from the get go? Would it be healthier not to oxidize it compared to low power dry firings as far as not damaging the kanthal? How do you clean the coil for rewicking, high power dry burn? Is that safe on a already oxidized coil?

Kanthal was designed to be oxidized. The alumina layer it exudes at initial burn in inhibits corrosion and separates the media from underlying metals. For contact coils, it insulates adjoining turns inhibiting increases in resistance as power is applied. So you run truer or more constant in thermal output. The effect when properly balanced is a cooler vape, evidence of increased vaporization. First or most common remark from folks who've sampled t.m.c.'s over the course of 3 yrs now, "COOL". Then…I tell them the res and power applied.

If you wind an open (spaced) coil very consistently in geometry and strain, oxidize it with low voltage pulses, it will perform more uniformly. Still will fire mostly inside out so concentrating output at center. Wind it with steady strain on a screw. Make a jig with an ordinary dowel if not a pin vice. Good way to test or lean strain winding.

Oxidizing and dry-burning as done at low volts. Find the point at which your build starts to mildly go red. Try not to exceed bright red or much above the wire color temp you used to oxidize. This can warp the wind. Avoid the bright red, red/orange boundary. Prolonged high power burns can damage all the careful work. Overheating for example can over-ride the rigidity imparted in to the wire when winding. This is what's holding the geometry together. Exceeding the total energy input will negate this. It becomes a coil you must compress at high heat thereafter to hold its form. Won't perform the same and likely fire more from center if not exclusively.

So we find the zone to make the wire "sticky" when wound. This ensures the tightness of form. Then we learn to look for the beginnings of oxidation at given voltage as we burn it in. These two tasks should be the focus of training hand-eye coordination.

Dry burning should be low voltage as I explained earlier. A very small amount of water can be used to help clear stubborn canker if you have it. Try to avoid this. Your wick, juice and power may require you dry burn more or less frequently. Some tabs I'm rewicking cotton/KGD every other day (I can't tolerate too ashy a flavor). Others like vertical double-barrel duals, total 12mm of wicking, can run upwards of a month or more and clean up by drying them out and vaping straight glycerin for a bit.

Hope helpful. Have a great Thanksgiving all.

Good luck.

 

[bullhcr]

Still will fire mostly inside out so concentrating output at center.

Are you saying that a contact coil(made by tensioning or otherwise) is not glowing from the inside out? Seems counter to how heating wire behaves.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Yes that's been my observation of thousands of such winds made by others and myself in an informal study of this phenomenon over 3 years. To qualify this more exactly…when tension is used to stabilize the geometry and internal strain as uniformly as practically possible then rapid and efficient wire surface oxidation similarly and efficiently develops. The more consistent the application of strain and resulting oxidation the more consistently that uniform end-to-end wire surface (color) temp can be observed (witness the one sec slice below) in what I describe as a tensioned micro coil.

…it insulates adjoining turns inhibiting increases in resistance as power is applied. So you run truer or more constant in thermal output. The effect when properly balanced is a cooler vape, evidence of increased vaporization.

Had this not been the case I'd still be vaping fishing knot hand wound 6-turn coils on a Vivi Nova. Would never have encouraged super_X_drifter's microcoil enthusiasts to consider building with strain and probably wouldn't have dropped such a bundle on my collection of originals. Thankfully that's on some other alternative timeline I ignored…but it would have been cheaper.

Good luck B and thanks for your interest.

 

[Rudeboy615]

Thanks for the reply. Does the info on link below apply to vaping as far as the preoxidation, stress relief and fabrication goes.
Kanthal APMT — Kanthal

 

[MacTechVpr]

Thanks for the reply. Does the info on link below apply to vaping as far as the preoxidation, stress relief and fabrication goes.
Kanthal APMT — Kanthal

To cite the above, "Kanthal APMT forms a protective and non-scaling Al2O3 surface oxide when exposed to high temperature." (Not a K res wire data sheet but the alumina explanation applies.)

RB as you may know Kanthal was invented a century ago. However, I don't think its use in closed elements was specifically the objective or ever foreseen for an application such as ours. I quit smoking to prove and demonstrate the viability of such use in large part and do believe this is a unique adaptation as an end result and process.

More important to vaping I believe was my discovery as to just how much human ability brings to the perfection of these elements. It really is easy and with a little honing of our mechanical gifts (hand, eye, mental coordination) the average person can become surprisingly adept at repeating very detailed adjustments to strain and oxidation. When I realized this I came to an astonishing conclusion…we have it within us to dial in some incredible predictability and consistency to the vaping result. But something as uniquely personal and variable as our personal taste preferences require.

In other words — don't settle! Once we know the target we can attempt to fashion other methods and builds to that objective. Searching for the perfect vape is all part of our challenge and time consuming. Yet the easier we make testing for it the faster we can determine the variations we enjoy.

The tensioned micro coil is an excellent baseline and yard stick for our never ending search for vaping satisfaction. It's a joy. Achieving a t.m.c. is what ultimately sold me on the practicality of open systems and to realize that I would never be without the vape I wanted. That I would succeed in quitting.

That's why I'm still here today.

Good luck.

 

[Rudeboy615]

I was wondering if the heat treatment/preoxidation part applied to vaping. I've heard kanthal comes preoxidized and the process of winding the coil produces stress in the wire therefore requiring further oxidizing. Are they referring to oxidation performed by themselves or recommending how to obtain the best preoxidation on a new wire? How about stress relief, are they recommending the best way to re oxidize after stress? And how about the formation part, should the wire be hot while winding?

 

[MacTechVpr]

The answer to your question I think is no. The concept of oxidizing Kanthal as an integral part of achieving a stable t.m.c. is an adaptation specific to vaping that I envisioned. Don't believe Sandvik has ever openly sanctioned the use of Kanthal for this application or make recommendations for inducing oxidation or its optimization. Not uncommon. In a century folks have found quite a lot of uses for the wire's unique attributes. As they did here to dispense with the then popular NiChrome just a few years ago.

IMG_1191a

• MacTechVpr
• May 24, 2015

As for the process to create the above, no external heat is necessary…heat is introduced into the wire through strain (elongation) adding a minute increase in resistance. This is what over-rides the minimal winding tension present in the spooled wire and introduces the fixed form of rigidity of the coil you wound. Then it wants to remain that shape (metal memory) just as it did as spooled wire. This is what constitutes strain winding vs. forming which is simply forcing a bend around something by external rather than internal pressure.

This in turn aids oxidation as the wire if wound just tight enough will oxidize with little voltage input at initial burn in that optimal contact state.

An example of too much would be a lead that's overstretched on a open wind which then goes hot over-heating, a hot leg. In a t.m.c. though you're accomplishing this uniformly over the whole stretch of wire and with just enough strain to take the wind to closest contact or roughly to the point or start of elongation.

I've described the technique here and on the Protank Micro coil thread in several ways. Hope those just landing here will take a look.

Good luck. Always here to help if you get hung up.

 

[MacTechVpr]

On the subject of the ongoing popularity and viability of mechanical mods, I wrote…

The idea that you can dial up your preferred vape from 0-200W is an implied fallacy. In practice you must build for your device configuration whether mech or variable. Hone those skills and a mech becomes a Stradivarius in capable hands. No chipped device can touch that any more than a car maker produce the perfect car for all. Your individual taste characteristics and preferences are truly unique and infinitely variable. Learn to rebuild and you will see.

Good luck. Vape on.

 

[MacTechVpr]

If you want to be happy for the rest of your life
Just build a contact coil for your wife
And from my personal point of view…
Jus' a little strain will get ya through

Put one of these…

Tehnsioned Contact Micro Coil, MacTechVpr

• MacTechVpr
• Jun 25, 2015
• coil contact tensioned

Tensioned micro: 25/7/7 2.75mmØ=0.7995Ω
17.12-22.06W @ 3.7-4.2V (4.63-5.25A) 134-173 mW/mm²

in one of these…

Tensioned Micro Coil, Subtank Mni Base

• MacTechVpr
• Nov 11, 2015
• mactechvpr microcoil tensioned

25x7 @2.7778 mm = 0.805Ω 22.9W (5.2A) 170 mW/mm²

Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.
Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

Good luck and Merry Christmas all.