Right but that's where a centralization could come from as well. All it really takes is one large company to mass produce (which incidentally would knock prices down as costs come down) and that company begin a franchise program. I know that right now that isn't feasible for many as the start up costs alone can be staggering. I think with the FDA being setback (read setback not beat) on court that larger companies will soon begin to see this as a viable branch. I love the whole mom and pop feel of the community now but again I do have certain concerns when it comes to my health and safety.
Pharmaceutical and Tobacco Companies Join Forces.
- Thread starter petercro
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
- Status
Peter.. Thank you for putting your own thoughtful assessment out there for everyone to read! 
((( Hey ya'll ..we got another self-think'n brother who's speak'n up fer the cause! )))
-- Damn I love this place!!!.... ..and all the folks who're flocking to be here!
Double-Ditto !! -- to Bella Luce's roar!... tell 'em like it is Gina!!
Now as I see it...Kurt here.... has clearly highlighted several points that everyone should be (IMO) taking careful notes on. Good briefing Kurt! I couldn't agree more!
As for your question Jimi Mack ?... there can be little doubt that it won't take long for the taxman to 'arriveth' ! -- I imagine you'll see the first indications as soon as the FDA's court case is finalized and the government's administrative sticky-fingers have a chance to petition the legislative committees with their recommendations (perhaps watch for submissions to the Congressional Finance Committee's petition listings)
Thankfully, this is the one time where I'm expecting the sluggish nature of our bureaucratic system to actually serve us better. Whoa! ..what a concept..eh?
I figure it'll take somewhere up to a year or so. Maybe not though. Who knows? -- [ I mean there's always the chance some buckaroo congressman (& we might have just a few ..eh?) wrangles to slip in a negotiated rider on some minor Agriculture, Transportation, HEW, or other such bill. --yes?]
thanks to everyone for the lively discussion ... (and keep on cranking those wheels of deliberation Cali.. your input helps this old fart to know there's still someone out there willing to grab up & carry the flag! )
cheers all,
fisch
((( Hey ya'll ..we got another self-think'n brother who's speak'n up fer the cause! )))
-- Damn I love this place!!!.... ..and all the folks who're flocking to be here!
Double-Ditto !! -- to Bella Luce's roar!... tell 'em like it is Gina!!
Now as I see it...Kurt here.... has clearly highlighted several points that everyone should be (IMO) taking careful notes on. Good briefing Kurt! I couldn't agree more!
As for your question Jimi Mack ?... there can be little doubt that it won't take long for the taxman to 'arriveth' ! -- I imagine you'll see the first indications as soon as the FDA's court case is finalized and the government's administrative sticky-fingers have a chance to petition the legislative committees with their recommendations (perhaps watch for submissions to the Congressional Finance Committee's petition listings)
Thankfully, this is the one time where I'm expecting the sluggish nature of our bureaucratic system to actually serve us better. Whoa! ..what a concept..eh?
I figure it'll take somewhere up to a year or so. Maybe not though. Who knows? -- [ I mean there's always the chance some buckaroo congressman (& we might have just a few ..eh?) wrangles to slip in a negotiated rider on some minor Agriculture, Transportation, HEW, or other such bill. --yes?]
thanks to everyone for the lively discussion ... (and keep on cranking those wheels of deliberation Cali.. your input helps this old fart to know there's still someone out there willing to grab up & carry the flag! )
cheers all,
fisch
I just foresee the very precarious position that we are in at the moment, It won't take much to have a poster child of why ecigs ARE dangerous and add to the stigma. Now when I say things like that I refer to the uneducated masses that love to chime in on any and all social issues. Those that bother to do a little research and educate themselves rarely take an extremist position simply because they tend to keep an open mind. I have been a Marine and served my country and at the same time I see the faults within our government and the way it shapes our lives jsut the same as anyone else.
Here's just a few examples of why there needs to be SOME kind of regulation within this industry.
1.) Some unsavory type decides to become a supplier. They market an ejuice that claims "xx"mg of nicotine. When in fact it contains none forcing you to pay for a product that isn't there.
2.) Supplies are mixed in an unsanitary workshop causing all customers to become extremely ill or worse yet result in a fatality (tell me THIS one wouldn't prompt a quick knee jerk ban by the government)
3.) A supplier intentionally adding a chemical substance (illegal drugs) causing users to unintentionally ingest said substance.
4.) Worst case scenario an anti-esmoker fanatic decides to slip in as a supplier and lace their supplies with a fatal chemical resulting in deaths.
Now I understand that some of these a REALLY extreme but they are plausible at this point. I think ECF has a GREAT start on the policing of the products we are directed to here but this WILL grow and as it does we will need a larger regulatory office.
As far as keeping the taxman, FDA, and other government boogeymen in check the absolute first thing you must do is organize and voice your opinion. EVERY single change in the government begins with a small group of people who organize and get loud enough that they simply cannot be ignored.
I see a few organizations that have started this and urge every single person that reads these forums to join and sign petitions, write congressmen, and be as noisy as possible. If this is started now and gets loud enough BEFORE the regulations and taxes come into play they WILL be lessened.
It's jsut a simple fact that sooner or later the government will get involved in this because it's growing by leaps and bounds which means corporations will begin investing more and more. once that happens then big money begins to roll and the government isn't going to miss the opportunity to claim its cut.
Now I've also seen a lot of bashing about some of the larger corporate ecig suppliers and their costs and the fact that they are so much more expensive. The fact of the matter is that as the government closes in on this it isn't the Flavorshacks, Mrs. T's, and V4L's that are going to be carrying the brunt of cost when it comes to fighting this in court. Just a few things to keep in mind as this struggle continues.
Just FYI I personally LOVE flavorshack and V4L. They are two of my favorite suppliers and in no way want this to seem as I am bashing them. I'm merely trying to put some things in perspective for those that shooce to read this.
Here's just a few examples of why there needs to be SOME kind of regulation within this industry.
1.) Some unsavory type decides to become a supplier. They market an ejuice that claims "xx"mg of nicotine. When in fact it contains none forcing you to pay for a product that isn't there.
2.) Supplies are mixed in an unsanitary workshop causing all customers to become extremely ill or worse yet result in a fatality (tell me THIS one wouldn't prompt a quick knee jerk ban by the government)
3.) A supplier intentionally adding a chemical substance (illegal drugs) causing users to unintentionally ingest said substance.
4.) Worst case scenario an anti-esmoker fanatic decides to slip in as a supplier and lace their supplies with a fatal chemical resulting in deaths.
Now I understand that some of these a REALLY extreme but they are plausible at this point. I think ECF has a GREAT start on the policing of the products we are directed to here but this WILL grow and as it does we will need a larger regulatory office.
As far as keeping the taxman, FDA, and other government boogeymen in check the absolute first thing you must do is organize and voice your opinion. EVERY single change in the government begins with a small group of people who organize and get loud enough that they simply cannot be ignored.
I see a few organizations that have started this and urge every single person that reads these forums to join and sign petitions, write congressmen, and be as noisy as possible. If this is started now and gets loud enough BEFORE the regulations and taxes come into play they WILL be lessened.
It's jsut a simple fact that sooner or later the government will get involved in this because it's growing by leaps and bounds which means corporations will begin investing more and more. once that happens then big money begins to roll and the government isn't going to miss the opportunity to claim its cut.
Now I've also seen a lot of bashing about some of the larger corporate ecig suppliers and their costs and the fact that they are so much more expensive. The fact of the matter is that as the government closes in on this it isn't the Flavorshacks, Mrs. T's, and V4L's that are going to be carrying the brunt of cost when it comes to fighting this in court. Just a few things to keep in mind as this struggle continues.
Just FYI I personally LOVE flavorshack and V4L. They are two of my favorite suppliers and in no way want this to seem as I am bashing them. I'm merely trying to put some things in perspective for those that shooce to read this.
Interesting thread. Agree with most, but this one ...
In light of the fact that the drugs which might be used to lace the punchbowl (or juice) aren't free ... that would certainly cut into the supplier's profits. And, what possible motive, other than sadism perhaps. OTOH, there's no question that those who wish to spike their own juice are probably already doing so. But, at their expense, not the supplier's.
One more point on this particular subject. I think what someone does in the privacy of their own home is on them. I won't get into the legalities of recreational drugs, to each their own as for as i'm concerned for the most part. My main point on all of this is simply that it wouldn't take much for someone to ruin it for all at this point simply because we're at a very sensitive time period with this coming before the courts to determine whether or not we'll be able to continue this.
I agree we need some kind of regulation on the e-liquid. I do not wish to be vaping a product that is laced with god knows what or does not have in it what it is suppose to have. It should be required that,(this is later, once these become the norm), suppliers of e-liquid most provide test samples of their liquids on demand to some oversite system that will randomly check at various intervals the contents of the liquid being sold to make sure the liquid is what it is suppose to be.
I will not trust big tobacco once they get involved and will refuse to purchase liquid produced by them for fear that they'll muck with the contents to get us addicted to it as they did with cigarettes by adding things to make it more addicting. We know for certain that big tobacco does this. We cannot trust them.
I'd rather buy from a guy mixing liquids in his garage than big tobacco in this case. But I still want that guy that is supplying liquid to have his liquids tested on occasion to make sure we're not getting ripped off as the poster above said and that there are no chemicals being added that shouldn't be there. So some sort of regulation is going to be required down the road. Otherwise imagine the outcry that might come about if tainted e-liquid starts hitting the market - then these things will be banned. I do not think any of us wants to see that happen.
I will not trust big tobacco once they get involved and will refuse to purchase liquid produced by them for fear that they'll muck with the contents to get us addicted to it as they did with cigarettes by adding things to make it more addicting. We know for certain that big tobacco does this. We cannot trust them.
I'd rather buy from a guy mixing liquids in his garage than big tobacco in this case. But I still want that guy that is supplying liquid to have his liquids tested on occasion to make sure we're not getting ripped off as the poster above said and that there are no chemicals being added that shouldn't be there. So some sort of regulation is going to be required down the road. Otherwise imagine the outcry that might come about if tainted e-liquid starts hitting the market - then these things will be banned. I do not think any of us wants to see that happen.
Regulation is going to be required down the road. I think that we are down the road.
E-liquid regulation basics should be implemented asap as soon as possible.
As GypsyGirl said. I would have no problem from buying from a guy in a garage. If that garage were setup and used as a clean room.
Maybe an ECF approved banner on manufactures homepages which link back to an ECF controlled reporting area.
This idea would help, only if mega companies such as Google / Yahoo / AOL. Promoted the ECF as the Governing body for pv's worldwide.
As Cali has so eloquently said in his post's. He / We are not bashing the manufactures of E-liquid but more so just want to set a standard in-which these companies could flourish.
If any companies out-there would like to respond I would be very happy to listen to their point of view.
E-liquid regulation basics should be implemented asap as soon as possible.
As GypsyGirl said. I would have no problem from buying from a guy in a garage. If that garage were setup and used as a clean room.
Maybe an ECF approved banner on manufactures homepages which link back to an ECF controlled reporting area.
This idea would help, only if mega companies such as Google / Yahoo / AOL. Promoted the ECF as the Governing body for pv's worldwide.
As Cali has so eloquently said in his post's. He / We are not bashing the manufactures of E-liquid but more so just want to set a standard in-which these companies could flourish.
If any companies out-there would like to respond I would be very happy to listen to their point of view.
Yes! Please by no means think I am bashing our suppliers here. I'm supporting them monetarily just like everyone else. I would love to hear suppliers opinions on this as well. One of the other issues right now is that there are unqualified users who are able to purchase extremely dangerous versions of nicotine. A person who buys 100mg of liquid nicotine and really has no idea as to how dangerous it can be is just asking for a bad situation to arise.
They aren't getting no more money from me ~ Proud to say it to! Great Thread and you are so very right on. They are losing so much money, their freaking out. From the research I did Ecigs are on the rise and bringing in some major bacon!!!!! I was ...... when my state went up a dollar, then like 30 cents I believe, then another dollar, and then more. So the states are probably getting pretty desperate. Ecigs totally rock the House!!
Would anyone like some Bill Maher humor LMAO I love the guy! Their your dealer not your nanny LMAO!
YouTube - Bill Maher - Anti-Pharma Rant
~ Proud to say it to! Great Thread and you are so very right on. They are losing so much money, their freaking out. From the research I did Ecigs are on the rise and bringing in some major bacon!!!!! I was ...... when my state went up a dollar, then like 30 cents I believe, then another dollar, and then more. So the states are probably getting pretty desperate. Ecigs totally rock the House!!Would anyone like some Bill Maher humor LMAO I love the guy! Their your dealer not your nanny LMAO!
YouTube - Bill Maher - Anti-Pharma Rant
Last edited:
The ECF has been running for over 2 years now.
The FDA got its .... kicked in court. (They wont be happy about that).
The popularity of PV's is growing at a fast rate.
Smokey Joe
Would it be possible put a sticky thread in general discussions, entitled.
"Basic requirements for health and safety in the production of E-liquid."
Or something of that nature and let it run for a while. I would like to see what the response would be!
The FDA got its .... kicked in court. (They wont be happy about that).
The popularity of PV's is growing at a fast rate.
Smokey Joe
Would it be possible put a sticky thread in general discussions, entitled.
"Basic requirements for health and safety in the production of E-liquid."
Or something of that nature and let it run for a while. I would like to see what the response would be!
Correct me if I am wrong, but early on PV manufacturers went to the FDA and asked to be considered. The FDA ignored the requests. THEN when PVs started getting big and noticably cutting into the tax revenues the FDA did their dog and pony show about the juice and cried about the supposed dangers.
PVs and juice are such simple devices and easy to DIY that the ONLY effective taxation the gov could hope to see is from atomizers and nicotine liquid. These are the only two pieces that would be difficult for the average citizen to obtain for happy vap'n.
And as this takes off, I really look forward to an american manufacturer creating their own attomizer so we will no longer have to depend upon the poor quality of the Chinese attys.
Relax! PVs and vap'n are here to stay.
PVs and juice are such simple devices and easy to DIY that the ONLY effective taxation the gov could hope to see is from atomizers and nicotine liquid. These are the only two pieces that would be difficult for the average citizen to obtain for happy vap'n.
And as this takes off, I really look forward to an american manufacturer creating their own attomizer so we will no longer have to depend upon the poor quality of the Chinese attys.
Relax! PVs and vap'n are here to stay.
That's the upside to a quality control and regulations put in place. You generally have better quality items to purchase on the whole. I think that is a major plus. The taxation on nicotine is where they could really hurt you the most. it is about the only thing that most DiY enthusiasts can't read up on and trial and error it until the product is working.
Around 20 odd years ago I remember hearing or seeing some figures, but I cant definitively vouch for their accuracy however I was told/read/saw that
Smoking related illnesses cost the NHS approx 500million pounds per year to treat
The government raised approx 10billion pounds per year in the duty on tobacco products
I wonder what todays figures look like
e-cigarettes pose a very very serious threat to both the governments and the tobacco industry, I would want to piss off either of them
I would though be in favor of greater health and safety regulation and wouldn't object to paying duty, but that is because I'm vaping for the health benefits over analogs and the pleasure that nicotine brings me
I doubt that there is anyone on these boards that upgraded from analog to digital did so because of the costs, its just a nice side benefit.
Glenn
Smoking related illnesses cost the NHS approx 500million pounds per year to treat
The government raised approx 10billion pounds per year in the duty on tobacco products
I wonder what todays figures look like
e-cigarettes pose a very very serious threat to both the governments and the tobacco industry, I would want to piss off either of them
I would though be in favor of greater health and safety regulation and wouldn't object to paying duty, but that is because I'm vaping for the health benefits over analogs and the pleasure that nicotine brings me
I doubt that there is anyone on these boards that upgraded from analog to digital did so because of the costs, its just a nice side benefit.
Glenn
Big Businesses control the Government at all levels.
Always have - always will.
If you don't want to or can't realize this fact then you need to stick your head back in the sand.
Always have - always will.
If you don't want to or can't realize this fact then you need to stick your head back in the sand.
Actually, I'd wager that there are quite a few people here that switched to e-cigs primarily for the immediate financial benefit over the long term health benefit. I'm one of them. There are tons of comments on here from vapers who quit analogs, who said from the start that they discovered the e-cig completely by accident and never intended to quit in the first place. What other motivation could have existed from the get-go if they "never really wanted to quit" but only did so because they inadvertently discovered e-cigs?
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
