Pharmaceutical and Tobacco Companies Join Forces.

[petercro]

The rantings of an old man.

Pharmaceutical and tobacco Companies Join Forces.

17 December 2009 2pm.
I returned home from work, sat down on my stool in the kitchen and lit an cigarette. In front of me was my package from e-cigs.co.uk. A rn4081 and pcc. I never bought it to stop smoking, more so I was interested in what the hype was about! I finished my cigarette and opened the package. The battery had a charge already so I read the instructions, filled a blank cart with the DK tobacco 18mg and took a draw. The 30 or so analogue's were still sat on the kitchen worktop a week later, so I give them away!
This was 31 days ago. I started smoking at the ripe old age of 9 and now I'm coming up to 44. From the age of 16 I was on at least 20 to 30 a day. So for nearly 30 years of analogue's I think I have the right to call myself a time served professional smoker.

This Thread is not about my success in stopping smoking, moreover it's about the governments of the world stopping this product getting to the general public.

WHY?

The one word simple answer is MONEY.
The governments don't want to loose it! Any government would publicly state that smoking is bad for you. But privately, the amount of revenue they receive from the tobacco industry and the sale of tobacco products, runs not into the millions but into the billions.
The pharmaceutical industry have invested millions into the development and advertisement of nicotine replacement products, patches, gums, pills. And there sales revenue is also astronomical.

Now we all know that the e-cig / pv products are not perfect, but my god we can say as a fact that they are at lease 4000 times safer than a conventional cigarette. Because the 4000 or so harmful chemicals found in a conventional cigarette are not found in an e-cig / pv.
Nicotine itself is not harmful if taken in low doses, Yes it is addictive, but is certainly not carcinogenic
The reports form organization such as the FDA, state that pv's / e-cigs contain trace amounts (detectable, but not measurable) of diethylene glycol which were found in only one of the seventeen cartridges tested. Note that the amounts were so small there equipment could not measure the quantity found. In addition, tobacco-specific nitrosamines (TSNAs) were detected in some of the cartridges tested which used tobacco flavouring (Yes, but in what amounts and how many cart's and from what supplier). Further concerns were raised over inconsistent amounts of nicotine delivered when drawing on the device. (That statement sounded like it came straight out of the mouth of the head of one of the major pharmaceutical companies.) As in “we can deliver 11mg in a patch and you can't”. So how much nicotine control does the FDA have over a smoker who smokes between 20 and 40 per day. The simple answer in none, the government likes the revenue from the 40 a day man.

So pv / e-cigs are bad. The FDA says so.

In some tobacco flavoured cartridges (TSNAs) May be present!

There is a 17 to 1 chance that you inhale unmeasurable amounts of diethylene glycol.

Propylene Glycol can dehydrate you making you drink more water. (Not a bad thing, if you are like me and drink to much coffee).
(And if you read this pdf it can also stop you getting the flu.
zigcigs.com/PDF/Propylene-Glycol-Research-Study-Results.pdf

Sorry about address, I've not made enough posts to insert url.


Oh back to coffee or tea. Don't both contain caffeine. Isn't caffeine an addictive drug. Or even alcohol. I don't see the FDA banning those any time soon.

I personally think that the brown envelopes emanating from the pharmaceutical and tobacco companies to the hands of public officials, should be stopped.

As an Ex-smoker. (I never in my life thought I would ever be able to say that). But as an EX-SMOKER I would rather take my chances with a
Flu-less, 18mg-ish, Apple flavoured, dry throated, juice boxed, blue led lifestyle, than end up on a mortuary slab with cancer. All because someone in the FDA and other countries equivalent bodies, are taking backhanders.

P.S. I Don't own a juice-Box (Yet)

 

[imawitch]

I concur with everything you said..

Im a 32 yr ex smoker..

been vaping a month and almost 2 weeks..


I love my pv

 

[Bella Chic]

Very well said and I agree 100%! The government can just get over not getting ANY tax money from tobacco products from me and can kiss my ... other wise...I'll even mark the spot for them, lmao. Can you tell I don't like our "government" at all I know I'm doing better good than harm to myself and I'm glad I have the choice!

Gina

 

[Cali]

I agree completely! We should have a choice in this matter. Although I think there should be SOME kind of regulations (the same reason we have regulations in food service and preparation) to help prevent disease but in no way should they tell us we can't use these to help us quite smoking.

 

[AJMoore]

I agree - Right On!

 

[Shortstuff116]

I couldn't agree with you more. It's ALL about POLITICS & MONEY. Aways has been, always will be.

 

[petercro]

Cali
I agree. Regulations in the preparation and handling E-juice must be put into place.
Because as it stands now, anyone with a garage, a paypal account and a dirty old funnel, could decant and resell E-juice with there own label on it.
But I do believe these regulations should be enforced by the food rather then the Pharmaceutical industry. Or even some sort of self-regulation, with an open door inspection policy for companies preparing or handling E-juice.

 

[Cali]

Well I just think that there is a need for SOME kind of regulation. There are regulations and enforcement in EVERY kind of service industry. I understand the fear of the FDA getting involved but I would rather see a little involvement than some loony getting ahold of some ejuices and thinking it funny to put a virus strain in the bottles contaminating them. On top of that everything right now is pretty much on the honor system. If you have a supplier who simply commits fraud then there aren't a lot of legal recourses you can take since many are across the nation and even international.
If someone were to send out a very bad batch of a product and get several buyers sick or worse yet cause a fatality I guarantee the backlash from that would be thousands of times worse than putting regulations into place now.

 

[petercro]

Yet again Cali I do agree.
But isn't it about time that organizations such as the FDA, help the pv industry rather than hinder or even worse use scare mungering tactics to miss inform the general public. Because at the end of the day, if the general public fear pv's as much as cigs, the pv industry is screwed..
But i'm sure that if the FDA said to the pv industry regulations are required "lets talk". The pv industry would welcome them with open arms!

 

[Cali]

I agree wholeheartedly. Scare tactics are nothign new though. Everything from sex ed to anti drug campaigns have used them. Even driver's ed has been known to show gory films on the dangers of driving unsafely. Scare tactics only scare those who have nothing vested into the subject matter anyhow. The ones that DO have something invested no that A.) Smoking pot isn't going to cause you to die tomorrow. B.) Driving 10 miles over the speed limit does not in fact cause you to kill a family of five on their way to disneyland. C.) Smoking won't in fact destroy your life. So then the exagerated claims of the government in these cases go completely unheard because common sense will dictate is isn't the truth to 99.9% of the situations caused by these actions.
Fortunately people are coming through with a little more common sense this century. The anti-smoking agenda is harsh but I can understand some of their views. If the FDA or USDA or FBI CIA or any other government agency would set down some simple common sense guidelines instead of trying to dictate a ban on somethign they know nothing about then I guarantee this industry would flourish.
Major companies would jump on the bandwagon and we would see larger commercial successes and improvements on equipment and liquids.

 

[petercro]

Ok but have you ever known the FDA, USDA, GMC or FBI CIA CBS or even the BBC, use any common sense. The only thing to do is self govern. In such a professional and dedicated manor that any outsider would be unable to find fault.

 

[Kurt]

Perhaps you are unaware of the FDA's big loss in court over the status of PVs.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...t-sheet-update-fda-loses-first-round-450.html

Its a REALLY long thread, started last spring, where Smoking Everywhere sued the FDA to release its seized shipments. The FDA claimed they were drug devices. Had they won, they would be banned now. The judge ruled strongly against the FDA, saying they were a recreational tobacco product. So for now, we can vape legally. But they will likely regulate our ability to get high-nic juices...but that is well into the future at this point.

I agree with all your sentiments. In fact, I believe the agenda is far more evil than just money. But money is a big part of it. Including cancer which is one of the biggest money makers on the planet. They may not want you dead...yet...but they do want you taking some expensive drug for the rest of your life, and if that drug messes up your head, fine, you will be less a threat to their power.

But it is a rare and beautiful thing for the FDA to be so publicly spanked. Vaping is here, and big, for now. Its likely the industry will explode now, with BT trying to get their fingers in the pie. I think juice companies now need to start getting detailed analysis of their juices made and the results made public. Some do. Totally Wicked has, and so has Intellicig. They all need to now, before the FDA requires it. Some chemists here have analyzed various juices for nic content.

Thing is, if a company has a forum here, they really do follow the costumers wishes to a good extent, and I will only buy from places listed here. Ripoffs lead to bad reviews which lead to dropped sales. Vendors live and die by our words here.

The moderators may wish to move this thread into another forum though, since it isn't really info for new initiates looking to get vaping info. And I think if you look hard you will see this is a pretty well-worn topic.

 

[Cali]

I agree wholeheartedly with the example of only buying from suppliers listed here. This community is really tight-knit and helpful. I also agree that vendors need to begin an open door policy into their ingredients, processes, etc. BEFORE it is regulated. At this point the scales are in our favor but all it will take is ONE idiot out there to turn this into a media circus and the scare tactics to grab the uneducated masses and sway them into the FDA's favor. My biggest point is that without any regulations it is MUCH easier to condemn a community when something bad happens. Right now there is no fall guy other than ourselves.

 

[petercro]

As a new member I first spoke to smokey joe, who suggested I post this thread here and he would move it later.
Kurt, Just before you made your post I had just finished reading the overview of the FDA's beating in court. (A good result but not Great).
1. Electronic Cigarettes Could Not Market Their Products as a Smoking Cessation Device
2. Electronic Cigarettes Could Not Claim to Be Safer Than Traditional Cigarettes, or to Be Safer Alternatives to Smoking
3. Electronic Cigarettes Could Claim to Reduce Delivery of Certain Constituents, But Would Have to Undertake Studies and Receive FDA Approval, Which is Unlikely.
And so on and so on.
Taken from tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/
Still so many limitations.
I Agree though, probably not the best place for this discussion. But I'm still enjoying it!

 

[Cali]

Well i think this is the perfect place for this discussion. new members need to knokw where they stand as far as the legalities go on this subject. not to mention what to expect from suppliers. I agree that many are touting the recent ruling as a huge win for esmoking but really it's jsut a holding pattern. there are tons of ways the FDA can still get around the ruling AND plenty of legal avenues for appeals etc. this is just the begining and unless everyone gets onboard and begins a self regulatory mindset we WILL have tons of interference as soon as someone is harmed in any way shape or fashion with ANY part of an ecig. I think this community specifically does a GREAT job of regulating. The approved vendors have to act accordingly because we all DO pay attention to reviews and postings. As this grows though it would be nice to see that people must adhere to certain guidelines

 

[Jimi Mack]

While I will agree with what is being said here, I would like to add a question to the mix. The FDA has been told they can not intrude as of this moment which is all fine and dandy, but how long do you think it will be before the government steps in and starts putting taxes on our equipment and juice?

They know they will be losing tax revenue as more and more of us leave our analogs behind, they will only have one choice left, to tax the hell out of vaping before it gets bigger than it already is. If they hit us now and or soon it will not be such a big splash on the news and will quietly be worked into our lives. They know if they wait too long and the public truly finds out there is another method of offering a smoking experience without the negatives of smoking and then they step in it would cause more of an up roar.

 

[katnbrian]

you dont have a choice anymore (we the people) is no longer. The turds in washington will TELL YOU what you want /need/ will get weather you like it or not.
Did you want Obamacare???????? me either but you will be getting it because the turds are sending it your way. USA is a car going downhill with no brakes. Say hello to China as they pass you in a rocket propelled car going up to the top. All thanks to earmarked selfish stinking turds. I do like my PV though at least for awhile till i am told I cant have it by a bunch of money hungry sh$^ #@%^&* ......

 

[petercro]

Why does EBAY work so well?
FEEDBACK
A Dedicated feedback system administrated by a group of ECF elected officials should really be the bare minimum. Because in the UK at the moment I could buy high dose nicotine. Cut it with pg or vg add flavours and resell it.
The companies who handle and resell E-juice should also photograph and publish these photos of there labs in-which they work with open containers of E-juice. If the ECF as a hole can make or break a company within its forums. Then it would be a natural transition for the ECF to insist upon the implementation of minimum working standards.

 

[Cali]

You hti the nail on the head peter. the feedback system we have now works decently enough because this community is relatively small. as it grows so will the requirements to ensure quality control though. as far as posting pictures...... meh I can pull a picture off the internet of any kind of lab i want and claim it as my own. I can even photoshop most anythign in there as "proof" that it's mine.
Also as the community grows a word of mouth feedback system will become useless as vendors can go to multiple sites. what will eventually need to happen is a centralization of all rules, regulations, vendors, suppliers, etc.
As far as taxation of course I think there will eventually be a taxation on this product which I'm perfectly happy to pay. Once again I don't think an extremist view on the subject (on ANY subject for that matter) will ever solve an issue.

 

[petercro]

I understand what your saying about pictures. As I'm pretty damn good with photoshop / Gimp as-well. But confirmed pictures by respected ECF members would be a start.
I Know we are just waxing on here but again to implement any regulations, money is required and not just small amounts. For one man to travel to inspect one company to sign them off, would take a few thousand dollars. And how many companies are there in the US alone. So you either hand back regulation to the government or you self tax.
To pay for the implementation. Neither of which is desirable!
We now are approaching the realms of a PV Governing body. Well it's 1:25am here and i'm going to bed, back tomorrow.