2 Cats Died 2 Months Apart From Chemical Inhalation

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alisa1970

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thanks for the litter tip, after reading about all the dust, I got pretty scared and was thinking what to do. I use Scoop away and its great because it clumps so well and there is NO ODOR, but worry now if it is bad for our new kitten. I used that litter before when I had my other cat that passed away ( he was over 22 ) The box is in a well ventilated bathroom with a window. We were not looking for a new cat but she found us and I would like for her to be around as long as Thomas had been with us.

I use that one too, and the dust is insane. I had another couple of cats before my current two and they used Feline Pine with no issues. My girl kitty has sensitive feet and won't go near it, and the corn/wheat ones work great but keeping my boy from eating it is nearly impossible. The Scoop Away has been the only one that both have been happy to use. I'm bothered by that since it's so dusty...so far they've had no issues, but I would hate to be in the OP's position in a couple of years.
 

Coelli

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I use that one too, and the dust is insane. I had another couple of cats before my current two and they used Feline Pine with no issues. My girl kitty has sensitive feet and won't go near it, and the corn/wheat ones work great but keeping my boy from eating it is nearly impossible. The Scoop Away has been the only one that both have been happy to use. I'm bothered by that since it's so dusty...so far they've had no issues, but I would hate to be in the OP's position in a couple of years.

Give the Precious Cat a try - it's on sale for $17 right now for 40 pounds and if you have Prime the shipping is free. We order 3 bags at a time. Our UPS guy must love us. :p
 

krysti

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Krysti, if you do wind up getting another cat (or cats), and you're worried about silicosis, I highly highly recommend this litter:

Amazon.com: Precious Cat Ultra Premium Clumping Cat Litter, 40 pound bag: Pet Supplies

We switched to it because there is almost NO dust. My boyfriend is the catbox guy and he's extremely fastidious about it, scooping it twice a day morning and night. He used to use Tidy Cat, and you could see the cloud of dust rising when he poured it into the box. All of the furniture in that area for a wide radius got really dusty, even though we have a Clever Cat (top-entry) litterbox.

The Precious Cat stuff is SO MUCH BETTER. You can pour it into a box and there's no dust cloud. Like, at all. And the rooms where the litterboxes are stay much cleaner. We still get dust, but not really any more than anywhere else in the house.

So I just wanted to offer that to you if you decide to get another cat once your heart heals a little.

I'm very sorry for the loss of your kitties!

Thank you. Besides the obvious reason of being devastated over my loss and wanting to know what happened, I also wouldn't dream of bringing another cat into my house without knowing what the heck happened. The vet was floored at the similarities with my 2 cat's x-rays and them dying 2 months apart from apparently the same exact lung problem, which apparently isn't something commonly seen. I am so up and down between feeling relieved when I finally think I've at least figured it out, to feeling guilty that the only thing I really looked into as far as their health was the best thing to feed them - I was pretty obsessive about it, to just crying and being devastated again. Yes, I smoked around my cats for years, but I justified it because so did a lot of parents around their children, including mine. I feel so stupid that I never checked out cat litter or air fresheners or cleaning chemicals or anything really other than food and water (we had a fountain for a while). It seems I have always had to learn everything the hard way. I have never been a pet owner for the lifetime of a pet before (I had a stray cat for a short time as a kid and another one for a year that stayed with a boyfriend when I left feeling it was the best decision for the cat at the time). I would do so many things differently now after going through this. Again, I just feel so stupid and guilty I let this happen to my cats. There were signs I missed about the cat litter that I attributed to other things. Why didn't I look it up like I did with their food and water!! Thank you very much for the suggestion.

One day before all this happened, I was watching Animal Planet and fell in love with the Ragdoll cats. Their temperament reminds me so much of my Saber kitty (who was actually a feral kitten). He was sooo sweet and seemed so in love with me because I rescued him and I was so in love with him. He was scared of everyone else though, except for this guy who the first time he came over, Saber came out and jumped in his lap to my shock. That guy is now my husband. My other cat, Cougar, I got from my aunt's cat who had kittens. I named him Cougar because he walked like one and just thought he was so cool. He always got into trouble, but was very entertaining. My husband and I over the years talked incessantly about how we had the best balance of cats. They were so opposite in demeanor and personalities. I just want to re-create that again, I miss them so much. But unless I know what happened, I could never take a chance at this happening again.
 

Coelli

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I would do so many things differently now after going through this. Again, I just feel so stupid and guilty I let this happen to my cats. There were signs I missed about the cat litter that I attributed to other things. Why didn't I look it up like I did with their food and water!!

Please, please don't beat yourself up. You don't even know that it was the litter that caused it. Of course if you had known you would have done things differently, but whatever it was, you DIDN'T know. I know it's hard, but don't blame yourself. Your kitties knew you love them and that you did your best for them - you just didn't know. The grief is hard enough, please don't add so much guilt on top of it when you're already in pain. You should only feel guilty about something you've done, not something that happened because you didn't know it was a problem.

Massive virtual hugs to you from one pet owner to another.
 

krysti

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Please, please don't beat yourself up. You don't even know that it was the litter that caused it. Of course if you had known you would have done things differently, but whatever it was, you DIDN'T know. I know it's hard, but don't blame yourself. Your kitties knew you love them and that you did your best for them - you just didn't know. The grief is hard enough, please don't add so much guilt on top of it when you're already in pain. You should only feel guilty about something you've done, not something that happened because you didn't know it was a problem.

Massive virtual hugs to you from one pet owner to another.

Thank you. I was seriously ignorant though. I did so many things I shouldn't have done. It was like I thought pets just lived forever and died of natural causes. I'm not really a dumb person overall, but with them I was so ignorant. I really thought if you just fed them the best food and got them to drink lots of water, that's all you needed to worry about, unless they were having obvious issues. I will eventually let it go and quit beating myself up once I get through grieving. I know it's not healthy long term.

I do have a question though. Another thing I did which was probably stupid is I quit getting their vaccinations after they were kittens. The reason I quit is because Cougar got really sick after one and got a really high fever. He was so sick, I had to take his temperature rectally and he didn't even flinch. I figured they were indoor cats and never even had an opportunity to get outside so they weren't really needed anyway in my case. In case I ever do get more cats, does anyone know how important annual vaccinations are to indoor cats?
 

alisa1970

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Alright, well now I'm freaking out. I just saw another thread in this forum about silica wicks? Are you kidding me? Does anyone know anything about this? Which products actually use silica wicks, does anyone know? Are they used in both cartomizers and atomizers?

Silica wicks are very common, and I personally think the risks are overstated (when they are stated).

The wicks are not crystalline silica dust. They are definitely amorphous silica. Amorphous silica

Do they break down to crystalline silica dust in our tanks? No, extremely unlikely...

To all those who are worried that the particles they see in their e-juice is crystalline silica dust (e.g. the disappearing wick act)... In order to transform amorphous silica to crystalline silica, it requires hydrothermal conditions 300 to 500 C and incredibly high pressures of 197.38 to 947.69 standard atmosphere pressure (our tanks have 1 atm pressure :p).

What are those particles? I don't know but they aren't crystalline silica dust which causes silicosis. Although silica has not been tested in e-cigs specifically, it has been extensively researched. For example, I'm a protein purification scientist and we use silica (specifically gels and column chromatography) in many of our purification techniques (as well as qualitative and quantitative analysis). It's subjected to acids like HCL, Acetic acid, methanol, high heat...etc.

Please remember that many cartomizer/atomizers have silica components and the results of the e-cig studies up to date have proved that e-mist/vaping is safe (no PAH carcinogens nor harmful heavy metals were detected). So, if you don't want to get silicosis, then take precautions if you work around sand, rocks, minerals or in brick plants where you are more likely to come in contact with crystalline silica dust.

Hey everyone I was just informed about this thread. I have done some reserch on this topic several months ago.

this is a copy paste of things I found.

--------------------

technical: Micron = µ = Micrometer = µm (different sources use these interchangeably)

To clarify

1. It is amorphous not cristalline.
2. The fibers we use are too large to inhale past the throat.
3. If you got some in your mouth you would just spit it out or swallow it.
4. Silica fiber undergo dissolution and transverse breakage due to amorphous structure.

Source: http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp161-c2.pdf
Different studies have used different rules for counting fibers in air samples, but in general, a fiber is a particle that has a length ≥5 µm and a length:diameter ratio (aspect ratio) of ≥3:1 or ≥5:1. The WHO counts fibers as particles with lengths >5 µm, widths <3 µm, and aspect ratios ≥3:1. The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) counts fibers as particles with lengths >5 µm and aspect ratios ≥3:1. The levels of synthetic vitreous fibers in air are measured by phase contrast microscopy (PCM), transmission electron microscopy (TEM), or scanning electron microscopy (SEM) (see Chapter 7 for more details). A human respirable fiber (a fiber that can be inhaled and reach the lower air-exchange portion of the respiratory tract) is usually defined as a fiber having a diameter <3 µm.

...key determinants of toxicity including:
• The amount of material deposited in the alveolar region of the lung (fibers with diameters >3 µm do not reach this region; they are deposited in the upper respiratory tract and lung conductive airways, cleared by mucociliary action to the pharynx, swallowed, and eliminated via the feces);
• The rate at which macrophages engulf and clear fibers deposited in the lower lung (human
macrophages cannot fully engulf fibers with lengths longer than about 15–20 µm); and
• The extent of movement of deposited fibers from the alveoli to the lung interstitium and the
pleural cavity (fibers with diameters >0.3–0.4 µm may move less freely into the interstitium and
pleural cavity).

Fibers that can dissolve in physiologic fluids (i.e., that are less durable) develop weak points that can facilitate (1) transverse breakage by physical forces into shorter fibers and (2) faster clearance by macrophages, compared with fibers that do not dissolve, like amphibole asbestos fibers.

Synthetic vitreous fibers differ from asbestos in two ways that may provide at least partial explanations for their lower toxicity. Because most synthetic vitreous fibers are not crystalline like asbestos, they do not split longitudinally to form thinner fibers. They also generally have markedly less biopersistence in biological tissues than asbestos fibers because they can undergo dissolution and transverse breakage

Note: I underlined the above.

I have never measured a silica fiber used in any ecig product that was smaller diameter than 8 µm, most were between 20 and 35 µm.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...king/377764-dangers-silica-wicks-7-print.html
 
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Coelli

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Alright, well now I'm freaking out. I just saw another thread in this forum about silica wicks? Are you kidding me? Does anyone know anything about this? Which products actually use silica wicks, does anyone know? Are they used in both cartomizers and atomizers?

Many if not most commercial atomizers use silica wicks. A lot of people who rebuild use organic cotton or (much less commonly, but I prefer it) ceramic wicks. But if you're just buying something off the shelf it's almost guaranteed it's silica. Silica doesn't really burn though, that's why it's used so much.

In all honesty, with the amount of vapers we have on these forums and the amount that own cats I think if vaping was harmful to cats you can be sure it would be all over ECF. Even if it was something really rare, the fact that both of your cats had the same problem would be like lightning striking only you and only you twice.
 

krysti

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Many if not most commercial atomizers use silica wicks. A lot of people who rebuild use organic cotton or (much less commonly, but I prefer it) ceramic wicks. But if you're just buying something off the shelf it's almost guaranteed it's silica. Silica doesn't really burn though, that's why it's used so much.

In all honesty, with the amount of vapers we have on these forums and the amount that own cats I think if vaping was harmful to cats you can be sure it would be all over ECF. Even if it was something really rare, the fact that both of your cats had the same problem would be like lightning striking only you and only you twice.

I'm not really concerned so much about the cats and the silica wicks because they weren't inhaling it directly into their lungs, although I really don't know what to think anymore. Honestly, this is just, I don't even know the words to use, bizarre? coincidental? that now I come across a thread about silica wicks a few threads down from mine? I had never even heard of silica and silicosis before tonight. Now I am more worried that my husband and I (and everyone else we introduced to vaping) could end up with the same state of lungs as my cats. Sorry, I am sure this is going to become a really unpopular thread quick and I really really appreciated all the helpful and caring responses. Does anyone know where to get cartomizers that don't use silica wicks?
 

alisa1970

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I'm not really concerned so much about the cats and the silica wicks because they weren't inhaling it directly into their lungs, although I really don't know what to think anymore. Honestly, this is just, I don't even know the words to use, bizarre? coincidental? that now I come across a thread about silica wicks a few threads down from mine? I had never even heard of silica and silicosis before tonight. Now I am more worried that my husband and I (and everyone else we introduced to vaping) could end up with the same state of lungs as my cats. Sorry, I am sure this is going to become a really unpopular thread quick and I really really appreciated all the helpful and caring responses. Does anyone know where to get cartomizers that don't use silica wicks?

The silica used in wicking is not the same as the silica we're talking about. Please refer to the previous post explaining why. Any small particles which MAY break off a wick (which in itself is very rare, only with a very abused wick) won't reach the lungs or create the kinds of problems you are worried about.
 

krysti

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Many if not most commercial atomizers use silica wicks. A lot of people who rebuild use organic cotton or (much less commonly, but I prefer it) ceramic wicks. But if you're just buying something off the shelf it's almost guaranteed it's silica. Silica doesn't really burn though, that's why it's used so much.

In all honesty, with the amount of vapers we have on these forums and the amount that own cats I think if vaping was harmful to cats you can be sure it would be all over ECF. Even if it was something really rare, the fact that both of your cats had the same problem would be like lightning striking only you and only you twice.

By the way, I have no idea if silica wicks are harmful or not and I still think the cat litter and robot are at fault, and that would be because of silica. I was just going to type that it would happen over long term though. But now I'm thinking the pathologist said it was chronic and acute (chemical) inhalation. 9 years silica from cat litter, plus (if the cats could have gotten silica from vaping) 2 1/2 years of 2 people vaping directly around cats. I am not going to rule it out. Also, both of my cats DID have the same problem. They were both x-rayed. Anyway, please don't anyone sit here and argue with me. The fact is that none of us know anything definitively so it is pointless. We all want it to be harmless because we all love to do it and we all feel better health-wise switching to this from smoking. I don't want to argue about it. I want it to not be detrimental to health as much as anyone else does. I am by no means on an anti-vaping campaign. But, I do still want to know if anyone knows if you can get non-silica wick cartomizers?
 

krysti

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The silica used in wicking is not the same as the silica we're talking about. Please refer to the previous post explaining why. Any small particles which MAY break off a wick (which in itself is very rare, only with a very abused wick) won't reach the lungs or create the kinds of problems you are worried about.

I read some of the stuff in the other thread about as long as the wick doesn't go dry... I am not using a tank, I am still using cartomizers because the juice I like to vape doesn't taste good in a tank after a day. The nature of the cartomizers is they start going dry often. It's dicey between trying to keep them juiced and not over-filling them. I understand what you are saying about it being different and I read that too, I'm just wary of whether or not to believe it. Do you know if there have been any studies or is that just anecdotal?
 

alisa1970

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I read some of the stuff in the other thread about as long as the wick doesn't go dry... I am not using a tank, I am still using cartomizers because the juice I like to vape doesn't taste good in a tank after a day. The nature of the cartomizers is they start going dry often. It's dicey between trying to keep them juiced and not over-filling them. I understand what you are saying about it being different and I read that too, I'm just wary of whether or not to believe it. Do you know if there have been any studies or is that just anecdotal?

It's all so new, so studies are hard to find. Let me see if I can find any. :)
 

alisa1970

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Found one for you.

This one concerns amorphous silica in industrial facilities (so there is a higher likelihood of inhalation exposure, more than with wicking in ecigs which is generally contained), and still concludes a very low risk of causing disease. although further studies are recommended:

Epidemiological studies do not support the hypothesis that amorphous silicas have any relevant potential to induce fibrosis in workers with high occupational exposure to these substances, although one study disclosed four cases with silicosis among subjects exposed to apparently non-contaminated amorphous silica. Since the data have been limited, a risk of chronic bronchitis, COPD or emphysema cannot be excluded. There is no study that allows the classification of amorphous silica with regard to its carcinogenicity in humans. Further work is necessary in order to define the effects of amorphous silica on morbidity and mortality of workers with exposure to these substances.

Health hazards due to the inhalation of amorpho... [Arch Toxicol. 2002] - PubMed - NCBI

But this exposure is in much larger quantities than from a 1/4" wick that is likely not going to be degraded to the point that particles will come off and be inhaled.

Oh, here's a post from another forum, with some links:



There's two primary types of silica, crystaline, and amorphous. Crystaline silica is the mineral form found in rocks such a quartz. This is the form that causes silicosis, usually requiring large daily exposure to things like mining, cutting, sandblasting, and grinding. Things that create large amounts of dust. The finest particles created from this operation (< 10 microns) stay in the air for long periods, are practically invisible, and are inhaled in the largest amounts. Imune responses to these particles in the lungs and the way in which they are dealt with are what cause silicosis: essentially the lung tissue being turned into scar tissue.

Amorphous silica is silica compounds that have been exposed to extreme heat. The heat changes the crystaline structure into an amorphous form (hence the name) that does not cause the same immuno response in the lungs. Typically these are manufactured materials such as glass, fibreglass, and our glass wicks. Eventually it will be removed form the lungs unlike some harmful minerals such as crystaline silica and (for example) asbestos fibres. It's the stuff that stays that creates scar tissue.

It's probably unfortunate that the wicks we use are called "silica". A more correct name would be "glass fibre" which more correctly denotes it's amorphous crystal structure. You can stop freaking out, and stop freaking the newbies out, too.

That is not to say that glass wicks are completely safe. Yes the fibres break. Yes we are most certainly inhaling some of it. Yes, some may damage the lining in the throat and lungs. No, it does NOT cause silicosis in any significant form that we know of in the roughly ten year history of vaping. Vaping has been used as a smoking cessation aid by some people with COPD (Chronic Obustructive Pulmonary Disease) with no apparent ill-effects. If anyone was going suffer further disease from inhaled particles it would be someone with COPD because the normal mechanisms whereby small foreign particles are removed from the lungs is severely compromised.

Sources:
Silicosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.osha.gov/dsg/topics/silicacrystalline/
COPD - Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease - Causes, Symptoms, Diagnosis and Treatment of COPD
What Is Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease (COPD)?
Amorphous silicon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Silicon dioxide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Health hazards due to the inhalation of amorpho... [Arch Toxicol. 2002] - PubMed - NCBI


http://forums.aussievapers.com/e-ci...dware-discussion/12146-silica-question-2.html
 
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krysti

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I just read amorphous silica was tested in an animal study and was found to be harmful to them. I have no idea if this is true. I don't even know if my or my husband's cartomizers use a silica wick. I also read if a silica wick is used, you will not get a burnt taste when you run out of juice. I used to get a burnt taste, I don't anymore, maybe my vendor switched to silica? I have no idea. I am going to look into this more. Again, if anyone knows where to get non-silica wick cartomizers, please let me know. If it's true or not, I don't want to take a chance. Thanks.

Health hazards due to the inhalation of amorphous silica.
 

alisa1970

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I just read amorphous silica was tested in an animal study and was found to be harmful to them. I have no idea if this is true. I don't even know if my or my husband's cartomizers use a silica wick. I also read if a silica wick is used, you will not get a burnt taste when you run out of juice. I used to get a burnt taste, I don't anymore, maybe my vendor switched to silica? I have no idea. I am going to look into this more. Again, if anyone knows where to get non-silica wick cartomizers, please let me know. If it's true or not, I don't want to take a chance. Thanks.

Health hazards due to the inhalation of amorphous silica.

You can have the same issue with cotton (ever heard of cotton-lung?). I would imagine that the same could be true also for ceramic wicks.

I understand your concern, but the kind of testing that was done on mice is not what we as vapers would expect to see in terms of exposure.
 

Julie W

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That was me. I wasn't accusing so much as trying to put myself in your shoes. I was confused about why smoking wasn't mentioned in your OP. I didn't believe it was an intentional omission so I took a stab at why such a factor would have been left out. My guess was to diminish the impact of this awful tragedy that's befallen your fur-children. Sorry for being so arrogant as to assign you your intent.

In the case I mentioned before - about my dog Nicki, I think I should go ahead and give you some further details.

I thought Nicki was fine up to the day we lost her. We had one Vet that we used and trusted and never went anywhere else for our pets needs. We took her in to get a fatty corpuscle removed. We picked her up about a half-hour before this Vet's office closed and knew right away something was wrong. The vet assured us she was just a little sick from the anesthesia so we left. We returned within fifteen minutes because of how acute her conditioned seemed. She had very labored breath and a lot of fluid coming from her nose. The mf'r told us he's about to close so we'd have to go to the emergency animal hospital. When we went, that Vet did x-rays and looked genuinely ....... He just kept saying "I'm not making accusations but this is in now way a sudden health event". We already told him we had her checked up at least once a year, and because of the fatty corpuscle we had them do a complete blood profile which came back clear. This emergency vet said "There's now way, considering the extensive scarring of the lungs, the liver being three times it's size, and the heart being so swollen, that the blood work didn't show major cause for concern". Since he couldn't prove anything and didn't want to be sued, he was trying to keep his cool and not outright accuse the primary vet of misdeeds. He couldn't hide his anger though. He kept shaking his head and muttering "this just isn't right". But he added that it's his personal opinion that no veterinary professional could have not seen this coming. If this had happened to him "I'd think someone charged me for a lot of testing that never really got done."
SOB

Sorry for your loss too Jay Dub.......been there done that :( ((((((( hug ))))))))
 

Jay-dub

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Sorry for your loss too Jay Dub.......been there done that :( ((((((( hug ))))))))
If she wasn't special it wouldn't have bothered me. Still does. Just realized my posts had "now" in place of "no" every time. I was getting worked up while I was typing it. It's a testament to how much a little furry one can mean to a person.
 
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