A message to all Canadian E-Juice retailer - A newbie observation

[Savu]

Really great, constructive points which I too did notice as a noob. (What is @shtray anyways, I am afraid to try it based on name alone). I recently ordered from Juggy and used reviews and info in this forum as a buying guide. I personally like this process, but that's me.

What I have taken away from the juice and device market is that it is still immature and there is a lack of normalized standards. It reflects where vaping in general is right now. Its what makes it fun but also challenging.

For the vendors out there and vendor to be, I do think there is a growing niche in the market for beginners and certain types of customers who want full disclosure and descriptions, and ways of being marketed to.

The market will meet this with supply once the demand is there in time.

 

[Rttch]

As a noob, I can relate to this as well. Yes, cherry, vanilla bean, cotton candy, chocolate, etc are all self-explanatory flavours, but RY4 would be a good example of what noobs won't know about until they visit these forums and find out what it means and how a RY4 is supposed to be balanced. What would you put as a description or picture that a name does nothing to describe as a "flavour"?

There are other names out there, but I don't want to target one single vendor for a certain name. Some titles are easy, but more abstract names are not very helpful to someone new to vaping and who may not feel as adventurous to try a flavour that is unknown.

 

[Nrgaway]

If a flavour is just called "cherry" and the vendor puts up a picture of a cherry is that really going to make THAT much of a difference? A picture of a gummie bear? An apple?

You give the perfect example. I have been disappointed sooo many times with flavouring; especially cherry and apple flavours. They can say things like the cherry is a candy like cherry, similar to halls. When ordering I was expecting a flavour more like real cherries. In regards to the apple, they can also state tastes like green apples, which are tarte, not sweet like red mac apples. See a little simple description would have saved me some shipping and cost. I have not ordered any of the tobacco flavours wince I have no idea what they may taste like (with exception to Du-MAH-EH, which is great; see they were compared to Dumaurier [sp] and allowed me to make a decision on that).

 

[Zeeker]

I think the problem is that a lot of the Canadian vendors are small. They honestly are not big professional companies and if any of them sell nic liquid they are taking a big risk doing so.

These are people who do what they do to help us out. They sell (often) very cheaply and I would hazard a guess that some of them make little to no profit. They don't have the time, money or resources to pay for a professional photographer, let alone a website or graphic designer.

I'd say be grateful that they are there at all

If you don't like what you see then you have the option of ordering from another country and taking your chances with customs, or going the DIY route.

I know I'm new here but I couldn't have said it any better. Kudos to you Samyaza.

 

[renthepen]

I know I'm new here but I couldn't have said it any better. Kudos to you Samyaza.

I do not agree with you at all. Samyaa said

"If you don't like what you see then you have the option of ordering from another country and taking your chances with customs, or going the DIY route."

My intention, with this thread, is to keep our business alive here in Canada - and not to send people shopping overseas! It's the total opposite.

My opinion is that "If you don't like what you see" in the Canadian E-liquid business, try to change things for the better! That's my intention with this thread. This is why I already contacted most Canadian suppliers.

By the way the vendors have lots of different opinions on the matter. Here's the opinion of one of them:

Our 3 cents...

- the e-cig e-tailer business is a difficult one in Canada, considering market size and landscape of current government policies
- some vendors we have spoken to, including ones that have come and gone, identify risks and market size as being large obstacles
- speaking for ourselves, we've relied on word of mouth, and have gone with a barebones offering for a specific market

Our opinion is, that if the policy landscape was different, then a greater concentration of startups and specialty offerings would spring up, giving consumers a better choice, and making the business more sustainable. To be truly honest, nothing gives a better feeling of accomplishment than to hear testimonies of lifetime smokers that have kicked the habit with e-cig vaping. That fact is dear to our hearts and is the primary reason we got into the business. Two of us are ex-smokers.

We're always open to suggestions, and will implement the ones that "seem right" for our market segment. We're not here to test all the products out there, or to provide hundreds of pieces of hardware. Rather we like to found ourselves as an e-juice supplier for smokers who really really want to stop smoking.

To all n00bs out there , if you truly dont know details, I'd expect that any one of the Canadian e-tailers would be happy to help you get started, or to answer any questions, or to provide a recommendation for your first e-juice, since the majority of business found out there is word of mouth. And just to say, tho a picture is worth a thousand words, it really doesn't compare to the real act of vaping Lastly, flavour is a personal thing. For example, we're surprised how many people, besides liking 'DuMaurier', like flavours such as Peach, Banana and Red Bull. Doesn't anyone smoke tobacco anymore?

3Puffs Guys

 

[Toronto_Mike]

Welcome Ren, I gotta agree with some of the arguments, posted here but there isn't a consistent theme to how each of the Canadian E-juice vendor presents or markets their juice. It's a very new and open market with no book on how to run a successful E-juice company. Juggy's niche is more lighthearted & a bit comical. At one time, I wanted to email him & suggest that he make his menu's look more professional with thumbs & a detailed description but it seems to work very well for him & what's not broken........................ To further challenge the poster's finding, I'd suggest you look at Flavour Crafters - Johnathon has pics & descriptions for his juices & Ian over at MLV has pics with a brief description. I believe you are looking for a standard and this is something the ECTA has addressed. Hopefully in the near future, we'll see some standards. As a Canadian, I'm proud of our guys, they have all reached new heights with their juices & can compete with our neighbours to the south. I do hope, they see your post because there is always room for improvement esp. when addressing the needs of someone new.

 

[renthepen]

Also, I did get a lot of emails from suppliers that told me they are uneasy discussing the business of their competitors on the forum. They would all like to participate, to the debate, but that this is not "their" place (vendors) for discussing the issue - it's "ours" (customers). This forum is a place for opinions, so everyone, go ahead and participate! Vendors are reading this and taking it into account.

I must say, though, that I am grateful for all the answers they've given me by email - and they proved me that they may not be regulated at the moment but that they all have the "Canadian vapers best interest at heart".

Thanks for everyone of you who replied to the "half-an-hour noob mass email campaing".

 

[renthepen]

One of the vendor I contacted explained to me that most e-cig websites are not making their own juice - they are re-seller - and that "they choose to use the suppliers images and descriptions in order not to confuse the customer".

None of us would be happy to buy the same product twice without noticing just because they were given different names...

That's a good point. It's not always up to the vendor to make things limpid, it's sometimes the juice-maker's job!

And here's a quote I took from that vendor's email:

"that is just us and the way we think, we are so proud to have all this great juice in Canada and that is our vision, if we have it sell it and promote it. it is some of the best juice in the world"

 

[ChellyNelly]

Welcome Ren! You made some really great points, most of which I completely agree with. FYI there are quite a few vendors that have tried to become members of ECTA, but it is a "closed" group. To the people who are saying "take what you can get, shop internationally if you don't like it" are totally off base. Why should we settle for crap websites that give us absolutely no information about a product, especially a product that could potentially be quite dangerous given the wrong combination of misinformation or lack of information and circumstances. We should give the vendors our feedback, we should want the market to expand and become more professional. These types of things legitimize this industry.

Another thing I wanted to say, about the descriptions thing. They're always helpful. I want to know if this is supposed to be a candy watermelon flavour or a real watermelon flavour, or something entirely different - but that's an easy one. I want to know what the hell Ectoplasm, Boba's Bounty, and Jokesmoke are without having to watch 10 reviews. I want them to tell me what flavour(s) they're trying to replicate and let me be the judge of if they do it well or not. I mean, people don't taste so radically different that one person thinks apples taste stinky feet or something. Most people will taste most of the same flavours in juices, some juices have an element of surprise or a secret ingredient, etc, and those get debated a lot, of course.

I hope that we can someday soon have standards all across the board within this industry in our country, but we won't if we take a lackadaisical stance on the issues.

 

[encee_rz]

Another thing to consider is that some vendors aren't computer experts. It's not an easy task to put together a website and it's an even harder task to put one together that's pretty.

 

[Samyaza]

I do not agree with you at all. Samyaa said My intention, with this thread, is to keep our business alive here in Canada - and not to send people shopping overseas! It's the total opposite.

I think you took what I said out of context.

I only buy Canadian (I may try a US juice vendor soon, but only because of their exceptional reviews), I happily pay more for the same product and I try to order from as many of the vendors as I can.

The point I was making is that considering the dubious legality of what these vendors are doing, the fact that customs holds whatever they feel like at the border (these vendors get their addresses noted and everything from hardware to flavorings gets stopped) and the fact that in some cases the vendors do not have the time, resources or manpower to make the sites "better". No matter how good your intentions are (and I agree, there could be some improvements, but I find it is the minority that need improvement). The simple fact is that considering the legislation at the moment, they can't afford to invest more heavily in growing their businesses much bigger than they are. They actually shouldn't.

Should they all try and ensure that we have all the information easily at hand? Yes, with one exception. Nic strength. Personally (because I'd be upset for them), I wish none of them had any info like that freely available.

Would it be harder for us vapers when starting out? Yes, but it would also be harder for anyone else who didn't have good intentions.

Right now a lot is based on trust and goodwill here and until legislation is changed, it really can't change too much.

We all really want the same thing though

Edit: To make things clearer, I absolutely would love to see ingredients list. That is something we do need imo and standards, I was talking about the "fluff", pictures and descriptions and the fact that sometimes you may have to search a bit to find some info (like where the juice is made and shipping details).

 

[renthepen]

The point I was making is that considering the dubious legality of what these vendors are doing, (...) they can't afford to invest more heavily in growing their businesses much bigger than they are. They actually shouldn't.
(...)
Right now a lot is based on trust and goodwill here and until legislation is changed, it really can't change too much.

The fact that this business is dubious because of Health Canada's stupidity is not, in my point of view, a reason not to change. I understand that the idea of regulating the nicotine qty is something that might give some trouble to some vendors. I understand that this business is fragile...

...but it is growing. And it will continue to grow. You can't stop the change... so I say work with it. Adapt. Don't stagnate!

Besides... to write two sentences of description instead of four words, to put an image instead of a logo and to write "50%PG/50%VG" on a website shouldn't be that much of a difficulty, isn't it?

 

[Nrgaway]

Another thing you really need to worry about these small guys, especially if they claim they don't even have time to update website, etc is safety. I actually wonder how clean and sterile the environment is where they are mixing the juices. I am almost betting lots of these dudes are mixing on the kitchen table, or worse and have no cleanliness policies. Bacteria is a concern as well as other things. It would be nice to know the guys that have a lab environment and have pictures to see how clean the lab is (something like the videos shot at Dekang; really impressive).

Just because someone is small does not mean there are any reasons to compromise safety. This is also a good reason why HC should reverse there decision so safety does not suffer and allow for bona fide operations to be regulated by health code at least.

 

[Samyaza]

I like to believe that the time not spent on adding pics to their website is being used keeping their working spaces clean

 

[sabyrock]

Hello all.

I'm Ren, from Montreal.
I'm new here. I discovered the world of Personal Vaporizers less than a week ago. I have discovered this forum right from the start and it helped me a lot understanding the terminology surrounding e-cigs and understanding the legislation problems here in Canada.

Yesterday I shopped for the first time (online) for e-juice, and I HAVE SEEN MANY FLAWS in the e-cig industry - and I think that especially here in Canada, retailers should read my observations:

I've been through a list of about 25 Canadian websites to finally find something I felt safe to order. I will now give you my opinion about what I think all e-juice e-shops should offer on their websites:

1- I need to see an image that represent the taste. "Jughead", for instance, is not a website appealing to me (even though EVERYONE seem to agree that their products are great). Nice pictures of tobacco shot by professional photographers is IMPORTANT! Even if it's all bullpoodoo and in reality it has nothing to do with the actual taste of the juice, it gives an idea of what it tastes like. Also, I am looking to find e-juice that would taste close to the tobacco brand I use to smoke, so pics of known brands with altered names is appealing as well to me. When there's no image, it's almost sure I won't click on the product. Stupid, isn't it? Well that's marketing 101!

2- Descriptions. Most e-juice stores don't have enough descriptions. If I click on an item and read a full paragraph about the 4 layers of taste of that perticular juice, I am a happy customer and I want to order. If I can't even tell if the tobacco e-juice is sweet or not, I won't buy it. Plain and simple. Same goes with PG/VG and nicotine mg/ml quantities. If I can't tell, and if the ratios are not clear... well goodbye I'm shopping elsewhere.

By the way I find it annoying to have a product that is not available in both high, medium, low or zero mg of nicotine, and I really find it annoying when the nicotine mg is not told in numbers. e.g. I want to know that my nic e-juice is 8mg/ml so I can mix it while knowing the amount of nicotine in the final recipe. If it's just written "light", I am not a 100% satisfied customer.

3- What is in the juice? I want to know, for my safety, where it was made (China? I got nothing about China but I fear their QC) and if there are tobacco Alkaloids (good!) or Diacetyl & Acetoin (bad!) in there. If it's not written anywhere... I may just shop elsewhere.

It is a pain in the ... to shop for e-juice in the PV industry, as a newbie, in the situation we're in right now (April 2012).

Take this a dumb newbie feedback if you want to, but think about this: Health Canada will probably legitimate on our favor if the industry is following some self regulations, and I think that e-juice retailers should all be part of the association (ECTA) and that they should all follow the same rules. As for the marketing of the products (image + description), I hope that you will all work on that aspect of your e-shops so that new customers like me will feel at ease.

Thanks for reading.

-Ren
P.S. Yes, you can PM me then send me some e-juice samples and I will give my noob opinion on them lol

Well done on your part for this and it was a pleasure to share a few email with you. Welcome to the wonderful world of vaping and ECF.

 

[sabyrock]

I think the problem is that a lot of the Canadian vendors are small. They honestly are not big professional companies and if any of them sell nic liquid they are taking a big risk doing so.

These are people who do what they do to help us out. They sell (often) very cheaply and I would hazard a guess that some of them make little to no profit. They don't have the time, money or resources to pay for a professional photographer, let alone a website or graphic designer.

I'd say be grateful that they are there at all

If you don't like what you see then you have the option of ordering from another country and taking your chances with customs, or going the DIY route.

Well said, the industry is growing fast and we all are growing with it, so we are not all so small. One of the things in Canada is most of us started as mom and pop and trow all and everything we made right back in to keep up with demand.
I can tell you, most of us are doing this because we fall in love with this vaping and quitting smoking for good. It sure came quickly for us to be passion about what we do. When someone come back after a few weeks from buying a starter kit and tell you " I smoked for 26 years and I quit because of you, your recommendation and your product" It touch you and make you want to keep doing what you started. And that is why we do this.

 

[sabyrock]

Welcome Ren, I gotta agree with some of the arguments, posted here but there isn't a consistent theme to how each of the Canadian E-juice vendor presents or markets their juice. It's a very new and open market with no book on how to run a successful E-juice company. Juggy's niche is more lighthearted & a bit comical. At one time, I wanted to email him & suggest that he make his menu's look more professional with thumbs & a detailed description but it seems to work very well for him & what's not broken........................ To further challenge the poster's finding, I'd suggest you look at Flavour Crafters - Johnathon has pics & descriptions for his juices & Ian over at MLV has pics with a brief description. I believe you are looking for a standard and this is something the ECTA has addressed. Hopefully in the near future, we'll see some standards. As a Canadian, I'm proud of our guys, they have all reached new heights with their juices & can compete with our neighbours to the south. I do hope, they see your post because there is always room for improvement esp. when addressing the needs of someone new.

Agree that some companies must make some changes and get up to par to be able to continue. That will become a must in this country if we want to challenge HC and approve this product.

 

[albertbert]

I think most of this thread is nonsense. Sure, nice images, and favorable descriptions and reviews may be nice for newbies, but its all just marketing and self promotion. This is certainly not something that should be enforced, especially by the ECTA. The secret and closed group of old Canadian vendors.

Since jugheads was mentioned, i'd like to defend them. The site is better than most when it comes to listing ingredients. At the top of their juice pages they say which mixes are available, that the juice does not contain PEG or diacetyl, and that is made in North America. The VG page is labeled equally well, even including that it contains some water and PGA, which is required in all VG juice to make it thin enough. They even sell dekang, which is in the clearance section of the site. But they don't hide that fact that it is dekang. With jugheads, you know what you are getting, and he has samples sizes, so you can try stuff safely.

I think jugz even added some new stuff, probably in response to this thread. Stating the VG and PG is usp grade, and that the nic is Gras approved. Of course they don't list flavorings, no one does to protect their recipes. If you look, the juice even contains mc'loving, what more could you want?

I understand wanting a more professional looking site, but it isn't a indication of quality. When i started out, i went for the fancy looking sites, and i over payed for hardware. Got completely ripped off on horrible perfumey china juice. The descriptions made them look nice, and they had positive reviews...

Anyway, the point is, nobody has any business enforcing how a vendors site looks, ECTA included. I doubt health canada cares what a site looks like. Actually i could see them going harder on sites that look "nicer". The pictures of cigarette brands... Nice fruits, and candy. One would argue that could be appealing to children, which is certainly frowned upon. We all know how flavored cigarettes are treated.

 

[Savu]

"nobody has any business enforcing how a vendors site looks".

Yes. Let the market decide. If the look of current sites is really a problem for enough people, then someone should start a fancy site and then it will do well. We can't force the existing sites to change.

This isn't black and white. Afraid this is getting a little polarized. For the record, I love the playfulness and trust-based experience at Jugheads, which isn't for everyone.

Health and safety side, there I am for standards. Shame on you HC, that is your friggin job, what do we pay you for.

 

[ChellyNelly]

It's not about how it "looks" albert, it's about the information contained. It would be nice if some of these websites looked a little more polished and not like the kid in grade 3 Tech Ed put them up for his school project. I think that having a professional looking site only adds credibility to the Canadian industry and helps convert more smokers and sell more product - surely not a bad thing.