A word of caution.
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Great points you made. Sadly, there are people out there that will turn a PV into something that it's not and spoil it for the rest of us. You made good points about the heating issue in regards to what we vape and the safety of it. Please keep this post going.
Dang Hairball, that's a lot of PV's in your sig. I only have 3 and am trying to talk myself out of getting a fourth. 
Dang Hairball, that's a lot of PV's in your sig. I only have 3 and am trying to talk myself out of getting a fourth.
That is a lot of firepower.
Meanwhile, Dragon, have you seen this thread? http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-smoking-discussion/216668-finger-licking-good.html
That is a lot of firepower.
Meanwhile, Dragon, have you seen this thread? http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-smoking-discussion/216668-finger-licking-good.html
Yeah, I have seen several people mention that. But, like Bardolf Blaze said, most juice don't taste
nearly as good as it vapes. I would tend to lump that in with not using like snuff or spiking your
drink. A little common sense would suggest tasting it straight wouldn't be any better.
Even though I use a low nicotine juice, I tend to wash my hands if I get more than a drop or
two on them. I would definitely wash my hands if I got any high nic juice on them.
I am extremely OCD when it comes to wiping up any drops on the floor or table. I have cats that
love the smell of my vaping, and while one or two drops might not hurt them, I am certainly
not taking that chance.
Nicotine in and of itself is Not a Poison. It can Only be used as a poison at high levels just the same as water can be a poison yet it is not a poison.
There have been many drinks products with nicotine in them. They don't do damage to your stomach or bowels or make you nauseous . Snuss and dip are not swallowed not because of it's nicotine content but because of other substances that make up their main components.
Nicotine may be a vascular constrictor but so are many foods eaten everyday. Some of these are cherries, blueberries, blackberries and tea. This term is thrown around as a scare tactic. The body takes measures to counter any ill effects these natural vascular constrictors cause. They may even be good for you as in the use of vascular constrictors as a treatment for Rosacea. To cause permanent damage you would have to bombard yourself with very high doses for very long periods of time over and above that which e-cig users encounter.
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Great and very well written Post VpnDrgn. I agree, as "Uncommon" as it may be, Common Sense must be applied to vaping. And YES Nicotine "In and Of itself" is a natural toxin, then again so is Capsicum Oleoresin,(the chemical that puts the "OMG This Is HOT!!" in hot peppers).
Keep in mind that just because it wont kill you in smaller quantities does not mean that it IS NOT a poison.
Nate aka Darth Vapor
Keep in mind that just because it wont kill you in smaller quantities does not mean that it IS NOT a poison.
Nate aka Darth Vapor
What people commonly do is confuse a poison such as a poisonous substance with a very high toxicity level in small to moderate doses and those run of the mill chemicals which can have poisonous properties in very large doses (toxin) and lump them into the same category. Nicotine is no more a poison than caffeine is. The word Poison is also thrown around as a scare tactic. If one would really abstain from using Poisons by your definition simply because thay can have potential to cause harm in very high doses (let alone death) then one would have to live inside a sterile bubble all of ones life. Most common substances have poisonous properties at high to very high levels. The difference is what is a poison and what is a toxin (commonly referred to as a poisonous substance)
"Poisonous (adjective) describes any substance, natural or manufactured, that is harmful or deadly to living cells, even in small quantities.
Toxic (adjective) refers to poison that is produced naturally by living things, but it is often used to describe any substance that is harmful or not good for you e.g. ‘toxic fumes’. This is very common usage, especially in non-technical language."
Poisonous and Toxic | What's the difference between
Therefore Nicotine is a toxin, not a "poison" as in the sense being used above, the sense that scares the hell out of people and says this drug is bad and carries major stigmas with it.
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By Dictionary definition you are correct. However, that being said, trying to downplay anything that has even the most remote chance of harming someone or Deity of Choice Forbid Kill someone is opening the door to catastrophe.
Just my opinion though, so take it as you will;
Nate aka Darth Vapor
We may have to agree to disagree about the definition of a poison in reference to nicotine.
By your own words, nicotine IS a POISON. Nicotine in its pure state is poisonous.
One drop on bare skin is enough to kill an adult in less than 5 minutes.
I don't remember if I read that in a MSDS or a lab report. I am no chemist, as I mentioned
in the OP, so I can't spout quantity formulas at you. But, even the 100mg solution is strong
enough to make the average adult sick just from prolonged exposure to the fumes, and
even more sick from contact absorption through the skin. If I remember correctly, 100mg is
only a 10% solution.
I don't know every vendor, but I can tell you that almost every vendor I knew that carried
100mg nicotine stopped. I have mostly seen it only at lab supplies and one or two vendors
now a days.
There are many natural "poisons" that we absorb every day in trace amounts.
Aren't almonds a source of cyanide, I believe? And, there are many elements that are
harmless in their pure form but become toxic at high levels, I agree.
That was kind of the point I was trying to make about nicotine juice in the OP.
If used properly it is not a threat, but if it is abused it can be harmful.
Hence the "caution" ( not exclamation of threat ) to become knowledgeable of all its
effects and to use a little common sense when experimenting.
By your own words, nicotine IS a POISON. Nicotine in its pure state is poisonous.
One drop on bare skin is enough to kill an adult in less than 5 minutes.
I don't remember if I read that in a MSDS or a lab report. I am no chemist, as I mentioned
in the OP, so I can't spout quantity formulas at you. But, even the 100mg solution is strong
enough to make the average adult sick just from prolonged exposure to the fumes, and
even more sick from contact absorption through the skin. If I remember correctly, 100mg is
only a 10% solution.
I don't know every vendor, but I can tell you that almost every vendor I knew that carried
100mg nicotine stopped. I have mostly seen it only at lab supplies and one or two vendors
now a days.
There are many natural "poisons" that we absorb every day in trace amounts.
Aren't almonds a source of cyanide, I believe? And, there are many elements that are
harmless in their pure form but become toxic at high levels, I agree.
That was kind of the point I was trying to make about nicotine juice in the OP.
If used properly it is not a threat, but if it is abused it can be harmful.
Hence the "caution" ( not exclamation of threat ) to become knowledgeable of all its
effects and to use a little common sense when experimenting.
You should be warning people about exploding batteries, kids getting in to e-liquid, or people attempting to drink an entire bottle of juice.. I don't think this "drop or two" here and there stuff is going to hurt anyone. In fact, I know it won't. I've spilled about 5ml of 24mg juice on my hands before while messing around with a tank and didn't even feel a slight buzz. I've had a couple drops of e-juice in my mouth before, and only felt a little burn on my tongue... I don't mean to rain on your parade, but like I said earlier. The posts you're referring to were in no way more "harmful" than vaping high nic juice IMO.
Doberz, you seem to be taking several of my comments ( read : opinions ) as personal attacks and that is
simply not the case. You felt the need to defend yourself over your comment on drinking ejuice and yet,
you then jump all over my comment ( again, my opinion ) about how "I" feel about wiping up after spills
in a rather exaggerated way.
As a side note, I am sensitive to nicotine juice. I got a headache and nausea just from mixing 48mg juice
down to 12mg. So, yes, I am very cautious with juice, but I am not posting all kinds of panicky threads
about the "dangers" of juice. Just trying to urge a little caution for people to make themselves more
knowledgeable before going past the normal intended use of this great product.
You state that the post I referred to where not really harmful. My intention was to caution people to
educate themselves more before experimenting, not get up on my soapbox and shake my finger at
people doing something I think is wrong. We are all adults ( or better be ), we are responsible for our
own actions and need to stop waiting for other people to take that responsibility for us.
I feel comfortable enough with my knowledge of batts to use them safely. I do not however, feel that
I know enough of the specific facts to be teaching others about use and safety. There are plenty of
others more knowledgeable than I that post info on batts, see the battery university.
Kids getting into ejuice can be dangerous. I am one of those that feel if a child gets into a "regular"
bottle of juice, they will more than likely spit out anything they try to drink and most likely get sick from
what little they do swallow. But, it will not kill them, hopefully it will be a "learning experience" for them.
I do not feel that parents should be glib about having ejuice around kids though. Especially, if they
DIY their own juice and, by assumption, have concentrated nic juice in a house with kids.
I do not have kids. "Parents" should be responsible for their own kids, not the "village". ( again, my opinion )
Having kids would just stress my feeling that people should be more aware about the product they have
in a house with their children. Parents are responsible for their kids not me. Why should I have to worry
about the very real possibility of the gov't banning ecigs because parents do not monitor their own
children?!
As far as someone drinking an entire bottle of ejuice, that falls squarely under the heading of "common sense".
That is a phrase that is getting used a lot in this thread, but it is because it is really the main basic
concept of the whole reason for my post. If a "responsible adult" ( that is a big assumption ) does any
kind of research at all into this product, before making the decision to try something that is
acknowledged as being possibly unsafe, then decides to drink a bottle of ejuice, that suggests that
person may be unstable. Any research at all into ejuice would suggest that, at minimum, drinking a
bottle of ejuice would make you very sick. Why would any reasonably sane adult try this?!
Again, why should "I" have to worry about the gov't banning a product that I am responsible enough
to use because of others?!
Sorry, without meaning to, I find myself up on a soapbox. So, I'll just say a few more things before
I climb down.
I did some research before making the decision to try ecigs. I felt that even though there where no
clinical trials on this product it was still much safer that tobacco. That was my opinion that I take
full responsibility for. If, Gods forbid, I should get sick from this, I will not be looking for someone to
sue. I feel, personally, that this need for others to take responsibility for our actions, is a big part
of many of the problems with society today. I started this thread to "give a word of caution" where I
saw the need, not to tell anyone what they were doing was wrong, or try to educate people on something
I clearly think they should have educated themselves on.
I just wanted to suggest ( here's that phrase again ) "a little common sense". Clearly, some have read
this thread as I intended, while others think I am shaking my finger and saying "no no", and that is
not what I intended.
So, again, as I stated in the beginning, I am not a doctor or a chemist and these are only my opinions.
Take them for what you will.
simply not the case. You felt the need to defend yourself over your comment on drinking ejuice and yet,
you then jump all over my comment ( again, my opinion ) about how "I" feel about wiping up after spills
in a rather exaggerated way.
As a side note, I am sensitive to nicotine juice. I got a headache and nausea just from mixing 48mg juice
down to 12mg. So, yes, I am very cautious with juice, but I am not posting all kinds of panicky threads
about the "dangers" of juice. Just trying to urge a little caution for people to make themselves more
knowledgeable before going past the normal intended use of this great product.
You state that the post I referred to where not really harmful. My intention was to caution people to
educate themselves more before experimenting, not get up on my soapbox and shake my finger at
people doing something I think is wrong. We are all adults ( or better be ), we are responsible for our
own actions and need to stop waiting for other people to take that responsibility for us.
I feel comfortable enough with my knowledge of batts to use them safely. I do not however, feel that
I know enough of the specific facts to be teaching others about use and safety. There are plenty of
others more knowledgeable than I that post info on batts, see the battery university.
Kids getting into ejuice can be dangerous. I am one of those that feel if a child gets into a "regular"
bottle of juice, they will more than likely spit out anything they try to drink and most likely get sick from
what little they do swallow. But, it will not kill them, hopefully it will be a "learning experience" for them.
I do not feel that parents should be glib about having ejuice around kids though. Especially, if they
DIY their own juice and, by assumption, have concentrated nic juice in a house with kids.
I do not have kids. "Parents" should be responsible for their own kids, not the "village". ( again, my opinion )
Having kids would just stress my feeling that people should be more aware about the product they have
in a house with their children. Parents are responsible for their kids not me. Why should I have to worry
about the very real possibility of the gov't banning ecigs because parents do not monitor their own
children?!
As far as someone drinking an entire bottle of ejuice, that falls squarely under the heading of "common sense".
That is a phrase that is getting used a lot in this thread, but it is because it is really the main basic
concept of the whole reason for my post. If a "responsible adult" ( that is a big assumption ) does any
kind of research at all into this product, before making the decision to try something that is
acknowledged as being possibly unsafe, then decides to drink a bottle of ejuice, that suggests that
person may be unstable. Any research at all into ejuice would suggest that, at minimum, drinking a
bottle of ejuice would make you very sick. Why would any reasonably sane adult try this?!
Again, why should "I" have to worry about the gov't banning a product that I am responsible enough
to use because of others?!
Sorry, without meaning to, I find myself up on a soapbox. So, I'll just say a few more things before
I climb down.
I did some research before making the decision to try ecigs. I felt that even though there where no
clinical trials on this product it was still much safer that tobacco. That was my opinion that I take
full responsibility for. If, Gods forbid, I should get sick from this, I will not be looking for someone to
sue. I feel, personally, that this need for others to take responsibility for our actions, is a big part
of many of the problems with society today. I started this thread to "give a word of caution" where I
saw the need, not to tell anyone what they were doing was wrong, or try to educate people on something
I clearly think they should have educated themselves on.
I just wanted to suggest ( here's that phrase again ) "a little common sense". Clearly, some have read
this thread as I intended, while others think I am shaking my finger and saying "no no", and that is
not what I intended.
So, again, as I stated in the beginning, I am not a doctor or a chemist and these are only my opinions.
Take them for what you will.
You are right, just for safety sake don't charge batteries unattended, why take a chance, and put the charger in a metal pan or on a clay type trivet or hot pad and away from anything that could catch fire if the batteries or charge caught fire. I don't think there is to much to worry about, if you use a charger designed for the batteries you are using or comes with a kit.
Li-ion batts are a lot safer than the original li-poly batts. However, I just saw a post yesterday, I think it was,
about someones Ego batt exploding while charging on a PC USB.
As I stated earlier, I keep mine in a fire proof pouch plugged into a box with a circuit breaker.
I tried doing a search on the brand name on mine, but I don't think it is in production anymore.
Apparently though, I got a really good deal at a garage sale because the professional gear goes
for $800 to a $1000.
I did a little more research and found the "Liposack" for about $22.00 on Amazon. Be wary of the cheap ones,
a search on Youtube will show you what I mean. *shiver*
The sack appears to be very good at containing the flames, but it does not contain the fumes.
An area with good ventilation like a fireplace or a utility room with a vent to the outside would be idea.
about someones Ego batt exploding while charging on a PC USB.
As I stated earlier, I keep mine in a fire proof pouch plugged into a box with a circuit breaker.
I tried doing a search on the brand name on mine, but I don't think it is in production anymore.
Apparently though, I got a really good deal at a garage sale because the professional gear goes
for $800 to a $1000.
I did a little more research and found the "Liposack" for about $22.00 on Amazon. Be wary of the cheap ones,
a search on Youtube will show you what I mean. *shiver*
The sack appears to be very good at containing the flames, but it does not contain the fumes.
An area with good ventilation like a fireplace or a utility room with a vent to the outside would be idea.
Lithium based batteries are very common.... Look at your cell phone or laptop for confirmation on that one....
About the notion that those lithium based batteries are being pushed to the limits in an e-cig application- yes and no.... Yes, the cells that come in most e-cogs are being pushed pretty hard.... But.... That's only because the cells being included are pretty crappy... There is a plethora of better lithium cells available, but they aren't used due to cost... Really good lithium cells are out there, but they would cost twice as much as the cells commonly used now in our e-cigs..
About the notion that those lithium based batteries are being pushed to the limits in an e-cig application- yes and no.... Yes, the cells that come in most e-cogs are being pushed pretty hard.... But.... That's only because the cells being included are pretty crappy... There is a plethora of better lithium cells available, but they aren't used due to cost... Really good lithium cells are out there, but they would cost twice as much as the cells commonly used now in our e-cigs..
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About lipo sacks... Some are made of a true flame resistant material, others out of plastic based materials... If you are that concerned about safety you'd be better off charging and storing your cells in a vented ammo box (which is how I handle more dangerous cells)....
But.... You don't keep your cell phone or laptap batteries in a lipo sack do you? You don't charge them outside on a concrete slab do you? They are just as dangerous as what we use in our e-cigs....
But.... You don't keep your cell phone or laptap batteries in a lipo sack do you? You don't charge them outside on a concrete slab do you? They are just as dangerous as what we use in our e-cigs....
On the liposacks, that's why I made the comment about the cheap ones.
That's a good point about the laptops and cell phones. You do still hear stories about the laptops,
but not so much about cell phones. I imagine cell phones have protection in the batt and the phone,
with poly switches in the batts as well. The mnf's don't want a cell phone batt failing in someones pocket.
I personally feel that the pouch is a good enough back up for li-ion batts. I still try to rotate my batts
through the charger when I'll be around to keep an eye on them. If I was using li-poly batts, I'd probably
be a lot more paranoid.
I haven't done a lot of research on the IMR batts yet. From what little I've read, they don't have PCB
protection because they are supposed to be "safer chemistry" batts. I would think that a cell that is
designed for higher discharge would need more protection, not less.
edit - I have any outlet that has electronics plugged into it protected by surge suppressors.
My laptop and cellphone are plugged into a dedicated outlet with a low amp circuit breaker
in my computer room with an extra smoke detector and a fire extinguisher. I haven't gone
quite so far as to set up a sand dump yet.
I live in an area with frequent electrical storms. I came home after one storm to see scorch marks
across my living room wall from the cordless handset base station. I have been very cautious every since.
That's a good point about the laptops and cell phones. You do still hear stories about the laptops,
but not so much about cell phones. I imagine cell phones have protection in the batt and the phone,
with poly switches in the batts as well. The mnf's don't want a cell phone batt failing in someones pocket.
I personally feel that the pouch is a good enough back up for li-ion batts. I still try to rotate my batts
through the charger when I'll be around to keep an eye on them. If I was using li-poly batts, I'd probably
be a lot more paranoid.
I haven't done a lot of research on the IMR batts yet. From what little I've read, they don't have PCB
protection because they are supposed to be "safer chemistry" batts. I would think that a cell that is
designed for higher discharge would need more protection, not less.
edit - I have any outlet that has electronics plugged into it protected by surge suppressors.
My laptop and cellphone are plugged into a dedicated outlet with a low amp circuit breaker
in my computer room with an extra smoke detector and a fire extinguisher. I haven't gone
quite so far as to set up a sand dump yet.
I live in an area with frequent electrical storms. I came home after one storm to see scorch marks
across my living room wall from the cordless handset base station. I have been very cautious every since.
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Price does not dictate whether a lipo sack is good or not... You'd be amazed at what some companies make theirs out of...
Does a higher discharge cell need more protection? Nope... It needs the same amount as any other lithium cell...
Low quality cells currently in e-cigs are pushed near their limits on a daily basis... This not only reduces their cycle life, but also increases the chance of cell failure.... Using a higher quality cell that isn't being used anywhere near its limit results in greater cycle life and reduces the chance of cell failure...
Does a higher discharge cell need more protection? Nope... It needs the same amount as any other lithium cell...
Low quality cells currently in e-cigs are pushed near their limits on a daily basis... This not only reduces their cycle life, but also increases the chance of cell failure.... Using a higher quality cell that isn't being used anywhere near its limit results in greater cycle life and reduces the chance of cell failure...
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