Acetoin- thoughts

[alljokingaside]

Hey all,

So really new to vaping (day 4) and into it so far. Thinking about going the DIY route and making a list with tfa (due to value and shipping costs; I'm overseas for a little while and the prices for local juice is ridiculous- average of $35 for juice!)

I've been reading up on the diketone thing and, while I'm kinda in love with the bakery and buttery flavors I have atm, I'm not sure if I want to keep on with something that *potentially* could be worse than smoking (I usually do rolled tobacco, so no worries about diacetyl addition there).

At the moment, I'm thinking that while I want to avoid diacetyl (for obvious reasons) and acetyl propionyl (due to the apparently similar geometry to/effects of diacetyl), acetoin might be relatively safe (or safer).

My reasoning- Assuming that acetoin doesn't harm lung tissue, then the only concern would be acetoin becoming diacetyl. If memory serves me correctly, conditions of high pH (ie basic) might might act as a catalyst (since a basic solution would be H+ hungry and would be more likely to steal and *keep* the hydrogen from the -OH group in acetoin), but from the look of it, PG's seems to be relatively neutral and vaping (adding heat) would lower pH. If this is the case, then the chance that acetoin becoming diacetyl is minimal. (And this is all conjecture and, like, I have no idea how the differing molecules found with the ingredients in varying flavors would react with the acetoin, so...)

Thoughts?
I've already removed the (probably delicious) flavoring with acetyl propionyl and am mulling whether or not I should clear out the acetoin-containing ingredients, too. Ergh.

 

[rolygate]

No one knows until a proper study is carried out on vapour from e-liquid that includes acetoin.

All creamy / dairy / custardy / dessert-type flavours will potentially include materials that might be avoided for inhalation by anyone seeking to minimise risk. On the other hand, there might be no elevation of risk at all with inhalation of the quantities the average vaper might consume. Or, going through 20ml a day of custard-flavour refill liquid in an atty run at 150C could be a good route to COPD.

It's just too early in vaping for us to know any of the answers.

 

[Tangaroav]

That is why labels indicating if diketones and acetoin are present in e-liquids should be mandatory. Organic compounds in flavors are also a potential problem and the label should indicate its presence.

How else can a vaper make an informed decision ?

 

[dudelydudeson]

That is why labels indicating if diketones and acetoin are present in e-liquids should be mandatory. Organic compounds in flavors are also a potential problem and the label should indicate its presence.

How else can a vaper make an informed decision ?

I think you mean INORGANIC compounds... organic compounds are anything containing carbon (PG,VG, ethanol, all flavor molecules, etc.) However, even water (H2O) is technically an inorganic compound. So maybe a better descriptor would be organometallic and metallic inorganic compound.s. These would be considered contaminants and are allowed at specific levels even in pharmaceutical grade PG, VG, nicotine, etc.

Regardless, its unlikely any of these would ever find their way into your lungs as their boiling points are very high and they mostly do not vaporize at the temperatures we are vaping at.

 

[dudelydudeson]

Thoughts?
I've already removed the (probably delicious) flavoring with acetyl propionyl and am mulling whether or not I should clear out the acetoin-containing ingredients, too. Ergh.

Agree with rolygate here, we can't be certain until more peer-reviewed and sensical scientific data has been published. In general, ALL acetoin contains a small % of diacetyl (the spec at my company is 98% pure is acceptable, not sure what the 2% usually is). Acetyl propionyl (2,3-propanedione) is also bad for inhalation.

When people ask me about this topic I generally recommend staying away from any cream, custard, and butter flavors as these three chemicals and butyric acid are really the only way to get those types of notes. Generally I stay away from all desert flavors but lately I've just been vaping unflavored (which is always an option, albeit a less tasty one).

You need to evaluate for yourself whether the risk of potential negative side effects from vaping chemical coctails is worth the flavor. Especially ones which contain chemicals which are harmful at certain concentrations. Hell I try to not even eat or drink them even if they're "Generally Recognized as Safe" (GRAS). You can get your nicotine without the flavor. Though, either way, anything is better than inhaling a burning stick of plant matter which has been heavily processed and soaked in carcinogens.

 

[Tangaroav]

I think you mean INORGANIC compounds... organic compounds are anything containing carbon (PG,VG, ethanol, all flavor molecules, etc.) However, even water (H2O) is technically an inorganic compound. So maybe a better descriptor would be organometallic and metallic inorganic compound.s. These would be considered contaminants and are allowed at specific levels even in pharmaceutical grade PG, VG, nicotine, etc.

Regardless, its unlikely any of these would ever find their way into your lungs as their boiling points are very high and they mostly do not vaporize at the temperatures we are vaping at.

No, I meant natural ORGANIC compounds in flavors.

FYI the warnings about natural organic flavors comes at 1:36:00 or shortly after in the link of the Vapingreek's interview with Doc Kurt Kistler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOBDm8tSUEU&app=desktop

 

[Tangaroav]

No one knows until a proper study is carried out on vapour from e-liquid that includes acetoin.

All creamy / dairy / custardy / dessert-type flavours will potentially include materials that might be avoided for inhalation by anyone seeking to minimise risk. On the other hand, there might be no elevation of risk at all with inhalation of the quantities the average vaper might consume. Or, going through 20ml a day of custard-flavour refill liquid in an atty run at 150C could be a good route to COPD.

It's just too early in vaping for us to know any of the answers.

With some of the results reported in last year's study by Dr. Farsalinos, it would take a lot less than 20ml/day to be at risk of COPD or to suffer other permanent lung damage. IMO, diketones must be removed from commercial e-liquids, ( as recommended by Dr. Farsalinos), no buts about it.

 

[LoveVanilla]

This post/thread may be useful to you, "My TFA Choice List". Flavors TFA has added since post date are obviously not included -- but can be checked individually.