What is diacetyl, acetoin and acetyl propionyl?

[Mazinny]

Can anyone actually link to a real Study - Science - That shows the Danger of any of these in actual consumer use?
Not News Articles
Not Legal Briefs
Not Law Suites or Settlements

Actual Studies proving a clear and present danger?

The only documentation I have found is directed at Industrial Application. i.e. Production of the Flavorings using these chemicals in a High exposure / long term exposure situation.

If the question is have there been studies on diacetyl inhalation specifically as it comes to vaping, i believe the answer is no. "Clear and present danger" is not the standard i want applied, when it comes to substances to avoid, especially if they are easily avoidable.

The real question is not if the danger is over-blown or exaggerated, or if it's scare-mongering. The real issue is how do news-reports like these effect our vaping rights. How will they be portrayed in the media. Why do vendors state that there is no diacetyl in our product, when there is. Why can't they say that yes there is diacetyl in our products, but there is no "clear and present danger ". I will make my own decision as a consumer.

 

[t2ak]

If the question is have there been studies on diacetyl inhalation specifically as it comes to vaping, i believe the answer is no. "Clear and present danger" is not the standard i want applied, when it comes to substances to avoid, especially if they are easily avoidable.

The real question is not if the danger is over-blown or exaggerated, or if it's scare-mongering. The real issue is how do news-reports like these effect our vaping rights. How will they be portrayed in the media. Why do vendors state that there is no diacetyl in our product, when there is. Why can't they say that yes there is diacetyl in our products, but there is no "clear and present danger ". I will make my own decision as a consumer.

Very well said.

The Giraffe

 

[Thundernoggin]

The real issue is how do news-reports like these effect our vaping rights. How will they be portrayed in the media........

And they already have a catchy name for it.

Popcorn lung chemical gone from most recipes | NBC News

 

[meda_dro]

Can anyone actually link to a real Study - Science - That shows the Danger of any of these in actual consumer use?
Not News Articles
Not Legal Briefs
Not Law Suites or Settlements

Actual Studies proving a clear and present danger?

The only documentation I have found is directed at Industrial Application. i.e. Production of the Flavorings using these chemicals in a High exposure / long term exposure situation.

Sure, there are tons. It is pretty much well known that diacetyl and diacetyl-related flavoring agents are linked to popcorn lung (bronchiolitis obliterans).

Consumer-related (not industrial workers):
Bronchiolitis obliterans ... [Int J Occup Environ Health. 2012 Jan-Mar] - PubMed - NCBI

COPD and BO
http://www.atsjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1164/rccm.200706-837ED

Rat studies:
Necrosis of Nasal and Airway Epithelium in Rats Inhaling Vapors of Artificial Butter Flavoring
Tissue Sensitivity of the Rat Upper and Lower Ex... [Toxicol Sci. 2014] - PubMed - NCBI
Bronchial and bronchiolar fibrosis in rats ex... [Toxicol Pathol. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

One of the main reasons it can only be studied in humans historically (i.e. case by case) is because it's unethical.

CDC has published NIOSH safety limits on diacetyl exposure: Evaluation of electronic cigarette liquids and aerosol for the presence of selected inhalation toxins

Roughly half of e-liquids containing DA exposed users to higher than safe levels.

 

[crxess]

All are INDUSTRY LEVEL except the last Paper which reads:

They were slightly lower than the strict NIOSH-defined safety limits for occupational exposure and 100 and 10 times lower compared to smoking respectively; however, 47.3% of DA and 41.5% of AP-containing samples exposed consumers to levels higher than the safety limits.

Edited for correction: and the CDC is known for omissions and double talk.

Did you actually Read the information contained in these Documents?
I did.

I am not saying the chemicals are in any way safe. I am saying I still have not read anything that proves they are a clear danger in the volume normally used at the consumer level.

We can and do often assume anything about most things.

 

[dopamine1]

Someone should define "industrial" and "consumer" levels, the way people are using those words is meaningless without actual numbers. As far as I know, the levels in many e-liquids are much higher than the even the highest safety limits for workers. The safety limits are measured in parts per billion, flavoring companies have full percentages of acetoin and acetyl propionyl (and probably diacetyl in a few) in their flavorings.

 

[Desertfremen]

If you download and read the full PDF of the study in the last link those numbers will be defined and quantified for you.

 

[jarreddizzle]

All are INDUSTRY LEVEL except the last Paper which reads:


and is known to be a CDC sponsored work. and the CDC is known for omissions and double talk.

Did you actually Read the information contained in these Documents?
I did.

I am not saying the chemicals are in any way safe. I am saying I still have not read anything that proves they are a clear danger in the volume normally used at the consumer level.

We can and do often assume anything about most things.

Once again, crxess, the voice of reason and calm.
Research people, at least whats available. Make yourselves the lab rats, eh? I am being sarcastic.

 

[meda_dro]

All are INDUSTRY LEVEL except the last Paper which reads:


and is known to be a CDC sponsored work. and the CDC is known for omissions and double talk.

Did you actually Read the information contained in these Documents?
I did.

I am not saying the chemicals are in any way safe. I am saying I still have not read anything that proves they are a clear danger in the volume normally used at the consumer level.

We can and do often assume anything about most things.

Sorry, but this is not true. I read all the studies. I linked these articles to address the fact that you couldn't find any articles related to the dangers of diacetyl, and only thought "industrial levels" at flavoring plants were dangerous.

The consumer related one was not at industrial levels:

"
Case A
Case A is a female born in 1957 who was 47 years of age at biopsy-confirmed diagnosis of BO.
She did this by microwaving up to 30 bags of ACT II brand butter flavored microwave popcorn (BFMP) per weekend in a small, unventilated room. Additionally, Case A consumed approximately 3–5 bags of popcorn at home daily.

Case B
Case B is male born in 1953 who was 56 years of age at biopsy-confirmed diagnosis of BO.
For approximately eight years, from 1999 until February 2007 (when he was told his exposure to diacetyl from BFMP might be the cause of his lung disease), he ate an average of two bags per weekday and up to three bags daily on weekends.

Case C
Case C is a female born in 1957 who was 43 years of age at biopsy-confirmed diagnosis of BO.
Case C consumed one to two bags of BFMP a day, usually six days a week, from 1989 until 2000, with sporadic consumption continuing until 2005. Her primary brands were butter-flavored varieties of ACT II, Orville Redenbacher, Pop Secret, and Jolly Time.
"

If you're asking about consumer levels in vaping rather than microwave popcorn, then the last study I linked addresses that. It's not a CDC sponsored work. Where did you find that? The last study was by Dr. Konstantinos E. Farsalinos in Greece and was crowd funded by both vapers and vendors. The CDC in the USA has nothing to do with it.

 

[Mazinny]

Honestly, Xrxess is free to make his own decision on what to vape. We all assess and tolerate risk to varying degrees. All i am asking of vendors is to be honest and transparent. Consumers well make their own decision as to what they will and won't vape. If you state categorically that your juice is diacetyl and/or diketone free, make damn sure it is. Don't rely on the word of the flavor suppliers and/or lie.

Test the finished product. It costs $ 130. If you can't afford to do it, you have no business selling juice to the public.

And post the lab report on your website, or at least make them available to customers upon request.

 

[meda_dro]

Sure, I was never trying to tell him what to vape. He asked about the dangers of diacetyl, I just tried to give him some information.

 

[Jake67]

Interesting that we have no clue where these juices come from.
Can anyone name 1online vendor that has any photos of their sanitary lab? Do we know if they even have a facility? Do we know who these folks are ? What are their qualifications to be mixologists. Even a bartender has training but doesn't add a chemical to your mixed drink. All we see is a quick mission statement how these vendors are dedicated to providing outstanding , gourmet , natural juice because they care about the vaping community. Some will say that's why I mix my own. How much does the average DIYer really know. How many of us have actually searched on google earth to get a visual of the lab location of our online vendors ? I have on one of my favorite vendors because I wanted to pick up my juice due to the fact that I live 20 minutes from their lab. I was told sorry we don't allow visitors. Yet I still continue to order at 50 dollars a week. Who's the idiot? I will take credit.
This is the Wild West and we continue to indulge the next generation of exploitation. We knew smoking was bad but we ignored it. Are we doing the same thing again?
Can't wait for backlash from this rant.


Sent from my iPhone

 

[Mazinny]

Sure, I was never trying to tell him what to vape. He asked about the dangers of diacetyl, I just tried to give him some information.

Yeah, i know, my post wasn't really directed towards you. Although the dangers of diacetyl inhalation through vaping is likely dose related, and a lot more studies need to be done, there's enough there, for me to be at least a little concerned. It shouldn't be difficult for conscientious vendors to eliminate it from their products as some already have. At the very least if you claim your product is diacetyl free, you must have tested for it. 74 % of sweet juice samples testing positive, is a staggering number especially when the majority had explicitly claimed there is no diacetyl in our products.

Transparency and Integrity. If i can't trust a vendor on this issue, i won't trust them on other aspects of their safety protocol either. I really wish Dr. Farsalinos would name names.

 

[Mazinny]

Interesting that we have no clue where these juices come from.
Can anyone name 1online vendor that has any photos of their sanitary lab? Do we know if they even have a facility? Do we know who these folks are ? What are their qualifications to be mixologists. Even a bartender has training but doesn't add a chemical to your mixed drink. All we see is a quick mission statement how these vendors are dedicated to providing outstanding , gourmet , natural juice because they care about the vaping community. Some will say that's why I mix my own. How much does the average DIYer really know. How many of us have actually searched on google earth to get a visual of the lab location of our online vendors ? I have on one of my favorite vendors because I wanted to pick up my juice due to the fact that I live 20 minutes from their lab. I was told sorry we don't allow visitors. Yet I still continue to order at 50 dollars a week. Who's the idiot? I will take credit.
This is the Wild West and we continue to indulge the next generation of exploitation. We knew smoking was bad but we ignored it. Are we doing the same thing again?
Can't wait for backlash from this rant.


Sent from my iPhone

Ironically the only pictures i have seen, were from DeKang and Hangsen facilities, the same Chinese manufacturers that are constantly being derided by a portion of consumers here on ECF, for their supposedly lax safety standards. I am not saying by any means that there are not American vendors that have certified mexologists ans chemists on staff, with great quality control and sanitary clean rooms etc ... But as you say, how many of us actually do the research and put these companies to the task, and demand transparency ?

Check the AEMSA standards, and consider buying from AEMSA certified vendors, if you don't have an alternative way of trusting and feeling confident about a particular vendor.

STANDARDS | AEMSA

MEMBERS | AEMSA

 

[crxess]

Does anyone recognize the difference between use and abuse?

If not, maybe Banning Flavors is not such a bad idea.

People that used to pump Gas for a living had much greater risk of respiratory issues than the person that fills their tank once a week.


* I do not want anyone to Play Guinna Pig nor do I Assume these chemicals may in any way be Safe.
I do believe as proven in the previous post - All Diacetyl documentation so far seems to be directly in relation to (MBFP)
Microwave Butter Flavored Popcorn or Occupational High Level Exposure through Processing.

How, if at all, might Microwaving effect Diacetyl? What about the interactive effect of the overall product involved?

How is Diecatyl's structure maintained, or changed during the Popping precess?

I am Not Defending anything we choose to use or abandon in Vaping or life in general. I am simply looking for defensive answers to what I would consider reasonable questions.

This is also a good read on work place concerns and actions - CDC - NIOSH Science Blog – Diacetyl and Food Flavorings

Diacetyl is also natural and has been on the stove top for many many years. I wonder how our mothers and Grand mothers were effected?

The truth about what
Don't miss the Video

Edit: Maybe I am less concerned than others since I rarely use any high % of flavorings and I mostly use TFA. http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/flavorsworkshop/custard.html

 

[Jake67]

Check the AEMSA standards, and consider buying from AEMSA certified vendors, if you don't have an alternative way of trusting and feeling confident about a particular vendor.

STANDARDS | AEMSA

MEMBERS | AEMSA[/QUOTE]

Thank you. I checked the link and wasn't surprised at how few members were actually members. More importantly almost none of the companies that are referenced on the site are members. This is exactly what I'm speaking about.
Did I not view the full list.



Sent from my iPhone

 

[Mazinny]

Not sure what you mean by " how few members are actually members " tbh.

I counted twenty one members certified, and four general members who as of yet have not completed inspection and not certified.

That's how i read it anyway.

 

[IndigoChild]

I wrote ITCVapes and Bionic and they both responded with roughly the same message saying that they only use ingredients from manufacturers that claim not to use those chemicals. The guy from ITC however did say that he's aware of the issue with manufactures not being honest and that they've requested lab reports as it's a concern to them because he and his whole company vape the juices they sell. He said that the lab reports weren't independent but that they're getting ready to hire an independent lab to do testing for them. It appears that he really cares about his juice and what he's selling to other people. Bionic didn't have a further comment. MBV said that they're constantly investigating their manufacturers but didn't comment much further than that - only in saying that if they find out that these chemicals have gotten into any of their products that they'll issue a recall and notify anyone who's purchased any of them.

 

[Brobdingnagian]

Want this issue to get addressed in a proper and serious manner..follow the advice above in significant numbers and if you don't get a satisfactory report back - change to one of the certified e-liquid providers and watch what happens. I love Suicide bunny but I am waiting to hear back from PIP about the contents of her juice.. if I don't get the information - no more purchases..this will be my de-facto standard from this point forward.. Will Pip or any other vendor care if I don't buy anymore juice from them? ..Hell no.. Will they care if 75% of their customer base demands the information from them.. you bet your ... they will.

I believe this is what you're looking for: https://www.facebook.com/TheSuicideBunny/posts/317933675035148

Also, why no test for any of the other aliphatic alpha-diketones?

It appears nobacco tested for 3 of the major offenders for each liquid.

No offense towards SB meant, but if you're going to test for one, might as well just have them check for the rest, right?

EDIT: Pip noted on the same FB post later on that they are testing for other chemicals, but that the results take longer to get back for the other compounds. I think she mentioned it was Acetyl Propanol they're looking for in the other test.

 

[Soundhunter]

I am very happy to see this..Looks like I can continue purchasing one of my favorite juices..

Every other vendor should follow suit imo..There simply is no reason not to..

Saw a comment above regarding use and abuse..

Just wondering.. What constitutes "abuse" in vaping? Sub-ohm? high PG/ Low PG? Dripping? Number of mls vaped per day? Genuinely curious.




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