Analysis of the Black Gunk on Atomizer Coils

[exogenesis]

Welcome to the forum markule,

I think you've got it one there, oxidised/polymerised organic compounds,
probably not all due to PG though (flavours, additives, extracts etc).

Hope that vaping will work for you as well as seems to for most people here.

See you in the experiments & modding forums later then....

good luck

 

[Klimpt]

Markule - how does PG end up turning into plastic? And when you say "plastic", is that plastic in a layman's sense? The stuff buckets and chairs and toys are made out of? If so, yikes, that doesn't sound fantastic, although your saying that it is hard to remove makes me think it must also be hard to burn off with our atomisers (lessening the chance of vapour contamination).

Thanks.

 

[markule]

Markule - how does PG end up turning into plastic? And when you say "plastic", is that plastic in a layman's sense? The stuff buckets and chairs and toys are made out of? If so, yikes, that doesn't sound fantastic, although your saying that it is hard to remove makes me think it must also be hard to burn off with our atomisers (lessening the chance of vapour contamination).

Thanks.

I do mean plastic in the layman sense, as a generic term for polymers of any kind.
From polymer: Definition from Answers.com
Any of numerous natural and synthetic compounds of usually high molecular weight consisting of up to millions of repeated linked units, each a relatively light and simple molecule.
[Greek polumerēs, consisting of many parts : polu-, poly- + meros, part.]


Think of it like a chain. Each link is a simple loop. Hook a bunch together in line and you get a long chain. Link two chains together in the middle with another link and you get something else entirely. Now, randomly connect links, sometimes at an end, sometimes in the middle, sometimes to other chains at ends or middles, and you get polymers. Similarly, you can make propylene glycol act like links in a chain, especially when you add heat and oxygen. What you use as the sub units affects what the polymer will be like. Plastic wrap is low density plastic, soft, stretchy, melts fairly easy. Milk jugs are somewhat higher, but still soft. Burn either of those and you'll see what heat and oxygen can do to a polymer. However, enough heat and oxygen and any carbon and hydrogen based material can be oxidized to carbon dioxide and water (may take a whole lot). So, it may burn off, but will it before something else fails?


Changing the sub unit, the links, makes all the difference between these and the sort of heat and mechanical toughness of Kevlar, fairly high molecular weight stuff, or the plastic they use in artificial hips, which is really strong. Since the atomizers get hot, but not 1000 degree hot (just to pick a number), they may not be able to burn off all the polymer completely, but the byproducts should contain minimal amounts of the elements that result in really hazardous fumes (chlorine especially comes to mind).


Hopefully that's what you were after. Oh, and just because I ran across it: Polypropylene Glycol -

Minimum Fatal Dose Level:
3. 3= MODERATELY TOXIC: PROBABLE ORAL LETHAL DOSE (HUMAN) 0.5-5 G/KG, BETWEEN 1 OUNCE & 1 PINT (OR 1 LB) FOR 70 KG PERSON (150 LB).
[Gosselin, R.E., H.C. Hodge, R.P. Smith, and M.N. Gleason. Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Products. 4th ed. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1976., p. II-120]**PEER REVIEWED**


You'll never inhale that much char.

 

[surbitonPete]

Markule....my understanding of chemistry is zero so my question may be stupid...but is it possible that some sort of additive in the juice could stop those 'chain's' linking together so that instead of building into a hard 'plasticy' lump it might be more powdery and easier to wash off?

 

[katink]

Markule, I'm not sure if you are just giving extra information, or if you are being mistaken in the name of what is in e-liquid: but PG is PropyleenGlycol. PolypropyleneGlycol is another beast... (just warning, because we don't want anyone going to fetch PPG thinking it's the right thing for his/her liquid - hope you don't mind )

 

[Klimpt]

Markule - thanks for that explanation, but I'm afraid it is just evading me what your exact point is.

I think you are saying that heating PG has the potential to turn it into a plastic/polymer named PPG (if enough heat is applied), and that there is a potential that harmful substances may be released into our vapur as a result. Is that right? And does the bit you highlighted suggest that 1 ounce of PPG could be fatal?

Could you break this down for us laypeople a bit more? Are you saying that potentially fatal amounts of PPG are being produced?

 

[exogenesis]

I don't think he's implying any health risks, rather the reverse.

Really this is all about speculation about the make-up of the atomizer deposit.
i.e. some of the e-liquid may be polymerised, as well as oxidised, onto the coil during heating.

Technically you could say it's plastic,
but it's likely to be a whole mixture of chain lengths,
from one unit of PG (or VG) to who knows how many units,

So not really a uniform plastic, in the everyday sense as we you know it.
I think the technical term is 'amorphous' (i.e. non structured & mixed)
Especially since there's other chemicals in the mix.

How much of the gunk eliquid is
directly polymerised PG, oxidised PG, broken up PG,
& how much is coming from other ingredients
(flavours, chemicals in the tobacco extract etc)
or a truly random complex mixture of heat-reactants
and/or polymers of all of the above, is unknown.

My money is on some of all of them, but the more things you put in your e-liquid,
the more complex the possibilities.

The net effect is all we see, the black gunk,
what we'd all like to do is find a safe, easy way to remove it.

Finding out what the black stuff is, may help with that.

 

[markule]

Markule....my understanding of chemistry is zero so my question may be stupid...but is it possible that some sort of additive in the juice could stop those 'chain's' linking together so that instead of building into a hard 'plasticy' lump it might be more powdery and easier to wash off?

Actually, you have a good intuitive grasp of the matter based on your comment. Yes, there are assorted polymerization inhibitors (nice descriptive name for something that stops the chains from growing) but most of them are things that you probably really don't want to add to the vape liquid. Way outside my area of expertise, but some of the inhibitors I see with a quick google search look similar to things that tend to smell bad (amines like triethyl amine that smells like old fish), too complicated and big to vaporize, or aromatic compounds i'd hesitate to breathe (though phenol is the active ingredient in throat sprays, so may not be too bad at the dose you'd need for vaping). Stopping the chains would result in a less solid lump due to smaller molecules. However, as with many of the problems noted around the forums, the solution looks like it's raising it's own set of problems....Nonetheless, good call.

 

[markule]

Markule, I'm not sure if you are just giving extra information, or if you are being mistaken in the name of what is in e-liquid: but PG is PropyleenGlycol. PolypropyleneGlycol is another beast... (just warning, because we don't want anyone going to fetch PPG thinking it's the right thing for his/her liquid - hope you don't mind )

That they're very different is exactly the point. PG is just fine. However, link a bunch of them together and you get PPG, our very different beast. PG would wash right out, it's water soluble. PPG might be the mystery gunk, at least that's my hypothesis, and different enough that something else entirely will be needed. The extra info was just extra, but indicates to me that if it is PPG that it shouldn't be much of a direct health hazard at the amounts vaping works with. Absolutely no problem clarifying that, it's very easy to overshoot the audience's knowledge and end up misleading them, which is the last thing I want to do.

Or, PG good in e-juice, PPG bad.

 

[markule]

I don't think he's implying any health risks, rather the reverse.

Really this is all about speculation about the make-up of the atomizer deposit.
i.e. some of the e-liquid may be polymerised, as well as oxidised, onto the coil during heating.

Technically you could say it's plastic,
but it's likely to be a whole mixture of chain lengths,
from one unit of PG (or VG) to who knows how many units,

So not really a uniform plastic, in the everyday sense as we you know it.
I think the technical term is 'amorphous' (i.e. non structured & mixed)
Especially since there's other chemicals in the mix.

How much of the gunk eliquid is
directly polymerised PG, oxidised PG, broken up PG,
& how much is coming from other ingredients
(flavours, chemicals in the tobacco extract etc)
or a truly random complex mixture of heat-reactants
and/or polymers of all of the above, is unknown.

My money is on some of all of them, but the more things you put in your e-liquid,
the more complex the possibilities.

The net effect is all we see, the black gunk,
what we'd all like to do is find a safe, easy way to remove it.

Finding out what the black stuff is, may help with that.

Nail head squarely hit.

 

[markule]

Markule - thanks for that explanation, but I'm afraid it is just evading me what your exact point is.

I think you are saying that heating PG has the potential to turn it into a plastic/polymer named PPG (if enough heat is applied), and that there is a potential that harmful substances may be released into our vapur as a result. Is that right? And does the bit you highlighted suggest that 1 ounce of PPG could be fatal?

Could you break this down for us laypeople a bit more? Are you saying that potentially fatal amounts of PPG are being produced?

Just to specifically reply:
It's my hypothesis (or scientific wild ... guess) that he gunk is a mix of polymerization and oxidation products from the e-liquid, and it looks like PG specifically is a good candidate for this kind of reaction. In the amounts we're dealing with (that tiny bit of black gunk) this should not be harmful. The additional information indicated you would have to eat at least an ounce (1/16 of a pound, about 28 grams, or a lot) of PPG, pure, for a fatal dose. At a minimum. The amount vaporized in an e-cig is going to be, at most, micrograms (one millionth of a gram, or 1/30,000,000 of the lethal dose). The nicotine will kill you first, since it's lethal dose is close to 1 mg/kg, or 150 milligrams for a 150 kilogram human. That's just over 4 milliliters of 36 mg/mL e-juice. So, the primary hazard of PPG is to atomizers. By my guess, anyway.

We must also not forget the large body of anecdotal evidence for the relative safety of the material in e-cigarettes. OR, you aren't all dead yet, and it's bound to be better than smoking (inhallation of uncontrolled combustion products of chemically modified dried vegitable matter).

 

[breakfastchef]

Without an entire science lab behind us, questions about the nature, type and effective dissolving agents for the so called 'gunk' on atomizers is futile. Gunk is a natural side effect of combustion. Look inside your grill!

The cost to evaluate the effectiveness of cleaning methods would be expensive, and, did I mention, futile. I love speculation as much as the next person, but mental .........ion eventually bores me. Sorry to rain on the parade, but atomizers are throwaway items. If you can squeak out an extra week or two from a failing unit, go for it. I choose to toss them when they fail.

My recent failures with my newly built Magnum mod (6v+) turned out to be poor practice on my part. I allowed the coil to heat up to often and sometimes dripped on a steamy hot coil. Those faux pas caused premature failure of three atomizers. Well, at least I understand how to do high voltage vaping now and am at a lesser risk of burning out atomizers so quickly.

 

[surbitonPete]

Hi markule ....I have actually tried a couple of additives to see if I could somehow prevent the gunk becoming so solid......my first attempt was salt...my second attempt was calcium....both just made 'larger' deposits of hard black gunk with no sign of any difference to it's composition, no 'cleaners' I tried had any different effect on it. My theory had been that with salt in the mix it might actually be easier to simply wash off ...and my theory with trying calcium was that if there was more of that in the gunk perhaps the vinegar would have more effect on breaking it up. Unfortunately both ideas complete failures.

 

[surbitonPete]

Without an entire science lab behind us, questions about the nature, type and effective dissolving agents for the so called 'gunk' on atomizers is futile. Gunk is a natural side effect of combustion. Look inside your grill!

The cost to evaluate the effectiveness of cleaning methods would be expensive, and, did I mention, futile. I love speculation as much as the next person, but mental .........ion eventually bores me. Sorry to rain on the parade, but atomizers are throwaway items. If you can squeak out an extra week or two from a failing unit, go for it. I choose to toss them when they fail.

My recent failures with my newly built Magnum mod (6v+) turned out to be poor practice on my part. I allowed the coil to heat up to often and sometimes dripped on a steamy hot coil. Those faux pas caused premature failure of three atomizers. Well, at least I understand how to do high voltage vaping now and am at a lesser risk of burning out atomizers so quickly.

It's all very well to say that if you can afford to keep replacing atomizers..but unfortunately I can not .....if I can't find any way to improve my atomizer's life and cut down the cost's of vaping ....I can see me ending up back on tobacco..I was getting duty free tobacco before I started vaping and vaping is costing me miles more.....and it's actually more than I can afford.

 

[exogenesis]

Really Pete?, it's costing more to vape than smoke?

I'm truly amazed how that can be, cos even duty free
it must cost more for ciggies than 2 ml of e-liquid a day
+ an £8 atomizer per month.

 

[breakfastchef]

It's all very well to say that if you can afford to keep replacing atomizers..but unfortunately I can not .....if I can't find any way to improve my atomizer's life and cut down the cost's of vaping ....I can see me ending up back on tobacco..I was getting duty free tobacco before I started vaping and vaping is costing me miles more.....and it's actually more than I can afford.

How much longer would a failing atomizer need to function before it is not a significant expense to you. This device, presumably, has potentially changed your life/health for the better? If you could extend the life of an atomizer by 1 week, two weeks, three weeks; when is the cut off point where the cost now makes sense. My post merely reflects the common position that atomizers do not last forever and should be treated as disposable items. In the end, I would prefer to eat boiled chicken and rice in order to have a spare $9.00USD atomizer, and pass up the filet mignon.

 

[surbitonPete]

Really Pete?, it's costing more to vape than smoke?

I'm truly amazed how that can be, cos even duty free
it must cost more for ciggies than 2 ml of e-liquid a day
+ an £8 atomizer per month.

Exo......a 'week' would be an amazingly long lasting ladypipe atomizer for me....I didn't have any better luck with an evo...I have just brought 2 RN 4072 to try out in my mod ...the first one went dead on the first day...the second one has now worked for two days so far but already shows signs of loosing it's vaping ability and that's alternating with my ladypipe. ...and I am only vaping on average 3 mills a day.

Oh and I was smoking duty free tobacco....much cheaper.

 

[exogenesis]

Pete, maybe the question should be,
what the hell are you vaping ?

 

[OldBiker]

Hi Guys, just wanted to add my 2 cents. Ya'll are way ahead of me on the chemistry, so I just sorta "scanned" the posts that were heavy in that respect. I can however tell you that as far as the end of the element breaking free of the solder all you need is heat and electrical current. So losing the connection at that point may have nothing to do with the e-juice, but it's probably contributing to it though. I've seen solder deterioration many times in electronics of all sorts over the years, with early Apple Macs being some of the worst with frequent breaks of solder joints at the hi-voltage transformer for the screen (crt). Increase heat or current and you're more likely to have a problem with a solder joint. The relativly low voltage and current is probably the only reason the solder joints last any time at all considering the constant heating and cooling cycles. I realize this is a little off subject, but I wanted to comment on the solder joints mentioned on previous pages.

 

[surbitonPete]

How much longer would a failing atomizer need to function before it is not a significant expense to you. This device, presumably, has potentially changed your life/health for the better? If you could extend the life of an atomizer by 1 week, two weeks, three weeks; when is the cut off point where the cost now makes sense. My post merely reflects the common position that atomizers do not last forever and should be treated as disposable items. In the end, I would prefer to eat boiled chicken and rice in order to have a spare $9.00USD atomizer, and pass up the filet mignon.

I know exactly what you mean but the trouble for me at the moment is that I have become unemployed with the recession......so at the moment I have to count every penny.