Analysis of the Black Gunk on Atomizer Coils
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I haven't been at this that long, but from what I've read and a little personal experience it sounds like you're running your atomizer dry. That or you've got the worst luck possible. I have had one atty die in 3 days, the only other one died after 29 days of almost continuous use. My wife's 1st atomizer is still working after 25 days. I feel for you being unemployed man, hope it gets better for you (and the rest of us!) soon.
Hi oldbiker ...if anything I am always overfilling and having problems with too much juice because I try to make sure I never run dry....to be honest now I am actually wondering if letting an atty keep running dry would be a better thing to do! .....thanks for the good wishes.
Interesting,
when running my 'autovaper' device, I make sure I'm not
supplying too much liquid, cos that seems to cause a bubbling toffee
effect, and builds up the gunk quicker - but 'chewier' gunk I think.
Maybe you should try relaxing the overfill a bit.
Sorry to hear about the unemployment,
truly hope things pick up for you.
when running my 'autovaper' device, I make sure I'm not
supplying too much liquid, cos that seems to cause a bubbling toffee
effect, and builds up the gunk quicker - but 'chewier' gunk I think.
Maybe you should try relaxing the overfill a bit.
Sorry to hear about the unemployment,
truly hope things pick up for you.
I'm at a loss to explain it then, but like I said I haven't been at this long. Letting one run dry for long is a bad idea though, the element seems to need the e-juice to keep it cool enough not to burn the fibers inside it. I did exactly that with mine and it took quite a while to get rid of the burnt taste. Mine seem to work best at the point just b4 they flood.
What if the wick was dowsed in a flame ......ant liquid and let to dry or using a $10.00 flame ......ant fabric from an oven mit with a resistance to 400 degrees. I'm not sure how much absorbency is lost, but as long as the fabric is rolled or woven, absorbency of liquid would still exist. Would this not prevent the wick from crisping like it does?
I realize the residue is also a contributing factor to the gunk build up. But wouldn't this make atomizers last longer and make it easier to maintain?
I realize the residue is also a contributing factor to the gunk build up. But wouldn't this make atomizers last longer and make it easier to maintain?
Don't forget... the chemical entering the device can not be calculated from the deposits remaining. (Just because there is less Chlorine, does not translate into it not being from the water. The minerals suggest it is mostly water related, while the carbon/oxygen suggests it is tar/oils.)
Some things just stick better to carbon, and to heat-elements of specific ionic bonds. Other things refuse to stick.
The good news is... Anything stuck to the element, is not in our lungs.
You need to get a similar analysis of raw-fluid before use, listed as percentages of the volume. Compare the used level of liquid, to the deposits that remain, as the same percentages, and you can clearly state... "The heat element may remove up to X.XX% of elements X,Y,Z and will collect and carbonize up to X.XXmg of material in the process of vaporization." (You would have to dissect the whole device, and remove all traces by hand. ultimately, you should dissolve each separate known compound, to determine the true molecular volume, but that is a bit much. Save that for the FDA.)
So much for the whole, "Not breathing in carbon.", argument. (Though, it is obviously a lot less. Also being oxygenated, indicates that it is not completely carbonized.)
Being oxygenated should also indicate that an oxygen-stealing chemical, like peroxide, should assist in the removal of the deposits.
Minerals can not be avoided, as they are part of water, and most water-diluted materials that are not for medical use, or for scientific chemical use.
Where did you get an XPS? Like everyone has one in their garage!
Curiously... what deposits are along the inner walls of the mouth-piece and air-channel?
Some things just stick better to carbon, and to heat-elements of specific ionic bonds. Other things refuse to stick.
The good news is... Anything stuck to the element, is not in our lungs.
You need to get a similar analysis of raw-fluid before use, listed as percentages of the volume. Compare the used level of liquid, to the deposits that remain, as the same percentages, and you can clearly state... "The heat element may remove up to X.XX% of elements X,Y,Z and will collect and carbonize up to X.XXmg of material in the process of vaporization." (You would have to dissect the whole device, and remove all traces by hand. ultimately, you should dissolve each separate known compound, to determine the true molecular volume, but that is a bit much. Save that for the FDA.)
So much for the whole, "Not breathing in carbon.", argument. (Though, it is obviously a lot less. Also being oxygenated, indicates that it is not completely carbonized.)
Being oxygenated should also indicate that an oxygen-stealing chemical, like peroxide, should assist in the removal of the deposits.
Minerals can not be avoided, as they are part of water, and most water-diluted materials that are not for medical use, or for scientific chemical use.
Where did you get an XPS? Like everyone has one in their garage!
Curiously... what deposits are along the inner walls of the mouth-piece and air-channel?
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I did an analysis of relatively gently evaporated raw e-liquid
(same stuff as created the carbonised gunk) :
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...s-black-gunk-atomizer-coils-3.html#post190536
I'm swaying to the opinion than 'H2O2 boil-in-place' cleaining method helps
to remove gunk by the physical action of huge amounts of vigorous tiny bubbles.
But it might also chemically attack the gunk to some degree.
Plus the general 'cleansing' and colour bleaching effect it has on un-burnt
dirt & left-over liquid in the metal mesh & coil wick.
XPS instruments are just what I happen to work with,
so I could get these quick analyses done, while also checking some things
on the instrument that needed testing (in my own time I should add, just in case..)
I think anything after the coil (in air flow terms), just gets covered
in re-condensed e-liquid. Certainly I've seen that on my 'vaping test rig'
(that is for making gunked coils for testing removal ideas).
I get quite a layer of thick liquid built up on anything put in the vapour stream.
Comes of with a hot water wash though, so probably a good idea to wash out the mouthpiece
(or use a new one) now & again.
(same stuff as created the carbonised gunk) :
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...s-black-gunk-atomizer-coils-3.html#post190536
sorry, I don't wish to sound blunt, but H2O2 is rather a powerful oxygen giving molecule.
I'm swaying to the opinion than 'H2O2 boil-in-place' cleaining method helps
to remove gunk by the physical action of huge amounts of vigorous tiny bubbles.
But it might also chemically attack the gunk to some degree.
Plus the general 'cleansing' and colour bleaching effect it has on un-burnt
dirt & left-over liquid in the metal mesh & coil wick.
XPS instruments are just what I happen to work with,
so I could get these quick analyses done, while also checking some things
on the instrument that needed testing (in my own time I should add, just in case..)
I think anything after the coil (in air flow terms), just gets covered
in re-condensed e-liquid. Certainly I've seen that on my 'vaping test rig'
(that is for making gunked coils for testing removal ideas).
I get quite a layer of thick liquid built up on anything put in the vapour stream.
Comes of with a hot water wash though, so probably a good idea to wash out the mouthpiece
(or use a new one) now & again.
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I don't understand very much chemistry, however I find these in depth threads on the chemicals and reactions with the atomizers and eliquids to be fascinating.
Is the consensus here that VG is better than PG for atomizer health? As in the VG doesn't polymerize into as hard a crust like the PG?
Thanks for going through the details and experimenting with this stuff.
Is the consensus here that VG is better than PG for atomizer health? As in the VG doesn't polymerize into as hard a crust like the PG?
Thanks for going through the details and experimenting with this stuff.
Hi exo thanks...there could be something in letting an atty run dry at some sort of interval because all of my atty's when I have taken them apart have a very bubbly, lumpy, toffee like mass of the crud all over them....while I have noticed in a couple of your pictures that your coils are relatively evenly coated with crud. I got into the habit of making sure they don't run dry after vaping a few polyester fibres but I don't need to worry about that now I use the teabags..lol
I have a full ingredient list, directly from the manufacturer of over 90% of the e-liquid on the market today:
Propylene Glycol (77%)
Ethanol (10%)
1-Malic Acid (3%)
3-Methylcyclopentane-1,2-dione (2.5%)
Vanillin (2.5%)
2,3,5,6-Tetramethyl Pyrazine (1.5%)
Acetyl Pyrazine (1.5%)
Menthol (1%)
2,3,5-Trimethyl Pyrazine (0.3%)
Rhodinol (0.3%)
2-Acetylpyridine (0.2%)
Beta-Damascenone (0.2%)
Hopefully this helps solve a few mysteries. Source: Yunnan Dekang Biotechnology Co., Ltd
And I'm not sure if this was answered before, but I saw someone ask: yes, propylene is used in the making of plastic - most notably polypropylene, which is a very hard plastic once polymerized.
- Def
Propylene Glycol (77%)
Ethanol (10%)
1-Malic Acid (3%)
3-Methylcyclopentane-1,2-dione (2.5%)
Vanillin (2.5%)
2,3,5,6-Tetramethyl Pyrazine (1.5%)
Acetyl Pyrazine (1.5%)
Menthol (1%)
2,3,5-Trimethyl Pyrazine (0.3%)
Rhodinol (0.3%)
2-Acetylpyridine (0.2%)
Beta-Damascenone (0.2%)
Hopefully this helps solve a few mysteries. Source: Yunnan Dekang Biotechnology Co., Ltd
And I'm not sure if this was answered before, but I saw someone ask: yes, propylene is used in the making of plastic - most notably polypropylene, which is a very hard plastic once polymerized.
- Def
The above link to the manufacturer site loads very slowly for me, but for those who don't wish to wait 10 minutes for it to load, it goes directly to a scan of their SGS certificate which verifies that the chemical composition has been tested and verified to be correct.
I assume the percentages are figured on a per ml basis.
- Def
I assume the percentages are figured on a per ml basis.
- Def
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I'm totally fascinated...
However, the atomizer appears to work like a spark plug.
If you remove them from an engine... Umm.. spark plugs
... a white tip denotes lack of fuel... a black tip (which you can hit with a cig lighter, it will burn) denotes too much fuel.
The normal appearance would be rather metal looking.
I'm thinking it isn't the liquid itself... but the air/fuel ratio... poor combustion leaves gunk.
Katt
However, the atomizer appears to work like a spark plug.
If you remove them from an engine... Umm.. spark plugs
... a white tip denotes lack of fuel... a black tip (which you can hit with a cig lighter, it will burn) denotes too much fuel. The normal appearance would be rather metal looking.
I'm thinking it isn't the liquid itself... but the air/fuel ratio... poor combustion leaves gunk.
Katt
I'm totally fascinated...
However, the atomizer appears to work like a spark plug.
If you remove them from an engine... Umm.. spark plugs
The normal appearance would be rather metal looking.
I'm thinking it isn't the liquid itself... but the air/fuel ratio... poor combustion leaves gunk.
Katt
While the atomizer doesn't combust the liquid from what i've read about the operation, I think you've got a point here. If the air kept flowing while the atomizer cooled there wouldn't be vapor around the atomizer to condense onto it, which would build up a light liquid coating. The next time it heats up, since the wires get quite hot very fast, the liquid doesn't have time to evaporate before it burns and turns into the black gunk. I looked back at some of the mod videos, since they're reporting some really good atomizer life, and it looks like a lot of times they're continuing to draw a little after releasing the manual switch. Maybe they're pulling the vaporized e-juice all out, so as the coil cools there's basically just air around it, rather than vapor soaked air. Interesting...doesn't do us any good on automatic batteries unless we can add a "clear" puff at the end...like the opposite of a primer puff...Good spot there, Katt.
Oh, I make no claim it's practical. Just interesting. That's the beauty of hobbies. If something useful should happen to result, bonus. If not, the fun is mostly in the speculation and playing around with ideas.
Speaking of which, anyone tried grill cleaner on the atomizer? I'm still working my way through threads, but haven't seen it yet. Quick search doesn't turn up if it has been tried.
Could that fit with gunk also building up on a teaspoon with liquid above a flame, Kathy?
Pete: if your main trouble is money (as it clearly is at the moment, hope it passes soon for you!) - wouldn't the choice you have to make be: go back to the least liquid-using and gunk-forming way of e-smoking that costs the least atomizers, even if it is less satisfactory (but at least being able to continue vaping that way)?
Meaning: wouldn't it be wise to at least lower the power you are putting onto your devices (and adjust device to power then being used if neccessary)?
For what it's worth:
I find, myself, that using a pen-style and operating at 4 to 5v on the atomizer (through using a powerpack) plus using a manual switch gives me the most satisfactory results sofar as to atomizerlife: vape moist but not overly wet most of the day; and at least once per day vape your coil rather dryish; then take off mouthpiece and watch your coil while using the switch (blow gently if smoke gets in the way) until it lights up nice and orange quite soon after you press the switch - then it's pretty 'clean'. Sometimes you have to do this burning-cycle a couple of times (if there is still a lot of buildup in there - then it can take quite a while before starting to get orange, meaning you have to let it cool down a bit, then repeat until it glows quickly).
My HeavenGifts cigar that I use alongside the above is taken through the same routine, though this one works completely on just the standard small battery (3.6V) - here too I dry-smoke and reset once a day to get a quick glow.
On average (with the occasional bad-luck factor chiming in of course) my pen-atomizers last more then a month, if I'm lucky even around 2 months (my HG-cigars last around 3 months; and then I can just swap them at no more cost then a few dollar postage seeing a 5-y guarantee, cheap way also Pete...)
But... I do 'pay my price' for going this way: a bit less vapor-production then many would love to see. It's worth the 'profit' of using less liquor and less atomizers for me though (I simply _have_ to pay attention to costs also...)
(What might be of interest to the researchers here also: I used to have a
'backdoor-possibility' to get Ruyan-atomizers (penstyle) very cheap - no more, alas - and those lasted much longer, a few up to half a year or so... must be something special going on there...)
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Hi Katink.... all the mini pipe atomizers I have had so far have become un-vapable well within the guarantee period ....but at the rate they are failing it would be a full time occupation for me to keep on sending them back and claiming on the guarantee and I just can't see how Tim could stay in business if I keep on claiming on the guarantee (he has said that all I have to do is send them back and he will send me new ones) ....Unfortunately I can't send any of them back now because I cant help taking them apart and trying to find the cleaner that will dissolve that black gunk and solve the problem of them failing in the first place.....lol
The frustrating thing is that they they only really need to last me for at 'least' a couple of weeks anyway because by my calculations that should make it a little bit cheaper than smoking ........providing all the other parts don't need replacing too often. The mini pipe is brilliant if it wasn't for the atomizers longevity. the rest of the parts do seem to be proving to have a decent cost effective longevity.
The frustrating thing is that they they only really need to last me for at 'least' a couple of weeks anyway because by my calculations that should make it a little bit cheaper than smoking ........providing all the other parts don't need replacing too often. The mini pipe is brilliant if it wasn't for the atomizers longevity. the rest of the parts do seem to be proving to have a decent cost effective longevity.
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