Another excellent article by Jacob Sullum

[Bill Godshall]

Jacob Sullum at Reason.com has posted another excellent article describing his online debate with Jonathan Winickoff (who claimed at FDA's July 22 press conference that e-cigarettes are target marketed to children).

Ban E-Cigarettes-- for the Children!
Ban E-Cigarettes?for the Children! - Hit & Run : Reason Magazine

 

[Katmar]

Thanks, Bill!!!
Appreciate the link.

 

[ChipCurtis]

I just went ballistic on some guy "Bob" who wrote this little gem:

Also, seeing people get sick from smoking is a great deterent to new smokers and may save lives of new smokers by stoping them from starting.

You don't even want to see what I wrote. Not my usual style and tone of language. The ignorance of that statement just set me off a little.

 

[River]

You have to love how when fruit and candy flavors of tobacco were banned that the two most popular flavors for underage smokers menthol and clove were specifically exempted from the law.

Nothing exemplifies the ineffectiveness and incompetence of most anti-smoking forces than this lapse.

The only thing worse than a generation of incompetents screaming "but what about the children!" to get their way is how they use these sorts of underhanded tactics and still fail on such an epic level.

Septuagenarians cannot get wild cherry but you can be just like your favorite rap superstar by getting a pack of Newports at every store in the country.

Were I one of these people I would be embarrassed.

 

[Bill Godshall]

River wrote:
"You have to love how when fruit and candy flavors of tobacco were banned that the two most popular flavors for underage smokers menthol and clove were specifically exempted from the law."

The original FDA tobacco legislative deal negotiated between Matt Myers and Philip Morris in 2004 only exempted menthol from the flavoring ban (as menthol is 27% of cigarette market share, while all other flavored cigarettes accounted for less than 1% of market share).

In 2007, Kennedy amended the bill to also exempt clove, and several weeks later I convinced Sen. Mike Enzi to successfully amend the bill (in Senate HELP Cmte) to put the clove ban back in. So clove cigarettes are now banned, which I now regret because they weren't being marketed to youth, but rather are primarily smoked by immigrants from Indonesia and elsewhere in SE Asia.

 

[ChipCurtis]

In 2007, Kennedy amended the bill to also exempt clove, and several weeks later I convinced Sen. Mike Enzi to successfully amend the bill (in Senate HELP Cmte) to put the clove ban back in.

What was your reasoning (at the time) to want the clove ban?

 

[tarheeldan]

Huh. Winickoff's half the debate. Seems to me the consumer flow to e-cigs is typically smoker-->ecig user; definitely not non-smoker-->ecig user-->smoker. And, I too am tired of the "save the children" nonsense. Whatever happened to "save the smokers"? (or acting in the general public's best interest, for that matter...)

The Sullum piece itself made me feel better, though I wouldn't have minded him stating that rigorous quality controls and industry standards would be a boon.

 

[River]

River wrote:
"You have to love how when fruit and candy flavors of tobacco were banned that the two most popular flavors for underage smokers menthol and clove were specifically exempted from the law."

The original FDA tobacco legislative deal negotiated between Matt Myers and Philip Morris in 2004 only exempted menthol from the flavoring ban (as menthol is 27% of cigarette market share, while all other flavored cigarettes accounted for less than 1% of market share).

In 2007, Kennedy amended the bill to also exempt clove, and several weeks later I convinced Sen. Mike Enzi to successfully amend the bill (in Senate HELP Cmte) to put the clove ban back in. So clove cigarettes are now banned, which I now regret because they weren't being marketed to youth, but rather are primarily smoked by immigrants from Indonesia and elsewhere in SE Asia.

Be that as it may my unscientific and anecdotal evidence collected from the good old mark one eyeball is that every single clove smoker that I have ever seen without exception was young and doing it because it was (at the time in the mid 90's when they became popular) trendy and "hip" (for lack of a better term). So as far as clove goes I would not feel bad about it in the least. While fruit flavored tobacco users were the kind of men gathering together to swap lies and gently rock away their final years on the porches of general stores, VFW halls and markets.

(yes strangely enough to most people that still does exist in KY or at least it did in the 80's and 90's while I still had time to take scenic trips through the backroads of KY)

Please don't think my frustration toward anti-smoking groups is directed towards you or your organization. I feel as if I have been getting bullied for 20 years by the worst of the lot and at this point would be able to find fault in just about anything they do.

Perhaps regional differences account for what groups opposed to fruit flavored tobacco were after with the intent of the bill.

I admit that watching a public health issue muddied up and made into a morality issue has made me a tad bitter over the last couple of decades.

I would like to thank you personally for being a voice of moderation.

 

[(So) Jersey Girl]

According to a recent study (see link below) cigarette smoking by children is at an all time low and continuing to drop, while pot use is on the rise. The article points to the legalization of marijuana for medical purposes as a reason for this increase.

Study: Teens smoking more pot, less tobacco - Washington Times

Those who say they want to protect the children seem to be totally clueless as to what children are really doing.

I have a serious issue with the total hypocrisy of politicians (especially those in NJ) who are pushing for bans on e-cigarettes because they aren't approved by the FDA but are legalizing marijuana, which is also not FDA approved, for medical purposes. Must be something wrong with me!

 

[CaptJay]

I still maintain that if flavor bans (ie fruity type flavors) are subject to bans because of possible 'child endangerment in relation to age restricted items/substances' (my quote), that there is the example of alcohol (which you can buy in many flavors, most of them fruit; spritzers, coolers, flavored beers, flavored spirits) which is not and has not been banned for sale to adults, nor are they under FDA review. Why is alcohol exempt but cigarettes are not? Alcohol is a substance that is age-restricted (and rightly so imo) and legal, the same way cigarettes are. I don't see people grabbing their torches and pitchforks and going after them in rabid fashion. While I *may* do someone an injury from possible second hand smoking in my car, I would be much more likely to do them and maybe others, an injury if I drank too much and went out driving.
(for that matter, why are flavored condoms exempt and cigarettes are not?)
Why are flavors sole purpose supposedly to attract minors?
These arguments make no sense at all.
I'd much prefer my tax dollars be spent on banning those high sugar, low fiber 'cereals' whose sole purpose seems to me to be to make our children fat and poison their pancreases with sugar or the even worse, FDA backed High fructose corn syrup thats in every food it seems.
If they really cared about children's health (apart from banning tobacco cigarettes years ago) they'd start looking into salt and sugar levels in 'children's food' the way other countries have begun to.

 

[Kilroy]

In 2007, Kennedy amended the bill to also exempt clove, and several weeks later I convinced Sen. Mike Enzi to successfully amend the bill (in Senate HELP Cmte) to put the clove ban back in.

Thanks Bill. You know, I really enjoyed clove, but then I don't smoke anymore so it is probably a moot point. I CAN get clove flavored nicquid, for now.

 

[Drummel]

OK....

This will be short.

I smoked for 21 years, started at age 11(Protect the children). I didn't have any flavors. You just got use to it. I didn't do it to be "cool" I simply did because my family did.

Age 32. I find E-Cigarettes/ PV's. I order a starter kit. Day 1 I vape instead of smoke. Day 2 I attempt my morning Analog on the way to work. Oh dear lord, it's horrible, "How in the world did I love these things for so long.." Looking back... I have no clue, it just was and I always wanted another one and I actually liked them, heh.

Point is. Switching from Tobacco to E-Cigs (in any flavor) is a smart and reasonable move.

Moving from E-Cigs to Tobacco? I'm not going to say it's impossible, but you would have to really gird yourself for this monumental switch.

"Save the kids" is as tired as it gets.

Ask any E-Cigarette user how they feel about their old brand after switching. Would they switch back? Probably not, unless there was no choice in their future.

End of Line.

 

[jiff]

I've come to the conclusion I'm one of the younger vapors here at 19 years old. Maybe not the youngest, but one of the younger. I smoked for 4 years. Looks like all the anti-tobacco laws implemented in the 2000's did a whole lotta good, huh? Yet here I am at 19, and I don't smoke, I vape. I tried smoking an analog again... and, well, eww. I can't imagine anyone my age or the age I started smoking (15) to choose analogs over vaping JUST because of taste. The fruit flavored e-cigs are even MORE LIKELY to KEEP KIDS FROM ANALOGS. I would rather drive by the local HS and see the kids puffing e-cigs than analogs. Of course, neither should be condoned or sold to minors, but the preference of the two if one must be taken, I think, should be obvious.

 

[Cocky0]

I used to smoke bidis which came in different flavors. Really though the flavors were crap. I smoked them for the head-rush they provided.