I guess, ultimately we pay for it, when we support the NGO with donations. However, NGO economics are not like normal economics, so I am not sure how the money part works. Its a good question.
@countrygirl1291, exactly thank you!
Anybody else feel like a guinea pig? How do we know it's safe?
- Thread starter guitarzilla
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
-
- Tags
- revolution volcano
- Status
I guess, ultimately we pay for it, when we support the NGO with donations. However, NGO economics are not like normal economics, so I am not sure how the money part works. Its a good question.
@countrygirl1291, exactly thank you!
Thats why I dont trust FDA (or Big Pharma). How much money do you think Big Pharma puts on the table so they can get their drugs approved? Even when deadly?
I do not trust the FDA at all. However, the problem is that a lot of people do, and until e-cigs become FDA sanctioned, our PV's will always be a fringe, specialty market. And to make matters worse, e-cigs will not have the blessing of the FDA to go mainstream until Big Tobacco and Big Pharma are getting a cut of the profits.
Now, about your original question:
Yes, we are all lab rats in this great experiment we call vaping, be it you want to or not. Simply by being a vaper, one day you will become part of the statistics.
How do we know it's safe? Very simple. We don't.
We know it is by far safer than smoking, and there is medical data and anecdotal evidence to suggest they are mostly innocuous in the short term, with some people experiencing allergy related issues to either PG, VG or both.
We also know that the levels of nitrosamines (A.K.A. carcinogens) found in the juice are around the same or slightly higher than the nicotine patch and gum, well below actually harmful levels.
Another thing we know is that PG inhalation has been extensively studied since the 1940's and most negative findings have involved minor to negligible symptoms, but no data actually exists (to my knowledge) on the long term (2+ years) of exposure either on humans or in the levels vapers inhale.
Now, what we do not know so much about thus far is what harmful particles, if any, may be created by the nebulization process that happens inside the atomizer, specially when it is gunked up. That burnt taste a lot of people mention across the forum is not from the filler material in the carts. It comes from the build up of old caramelized juice at the atomizer's coil (the gunk) or the wick the coil is wrapped around burning/melting. The cart's filler is there to make contact with the atomizer's bridge, which is what wicks the juice to the atomizer's coil, so it should not not burn because it is never in contact with the coil. The exception to this of course, are cartomizers, where the filler and coil do touch.
The other very important thing we do not know yet are the effects of inhaling the flavoring in the juices. And on a side note, I think it is a good thing when the thing you should be the most concerned about when it comes to e-juice is the safety of the chemicals used for flavor.
And of course, there's the grand mystery of long term effects or lack thereof. And this is something we will never know until a good deal of years have passed and a lot of data has been collected.
Before anyone comes with the blanket statement 'nothing is really safe', let me just say that yes, even blinking when a fly is passing by can kill you. But there is a huge difference between reasonably innocuous and certainly harmful - regardless of the degree of harm.
In that sense, I personally consider PV's to be mostly harmless. Specially when compared to analogs. But the bottom line is we do not know if they are 'safe', and we probably will not for many, many years.
My advice for now? Vape on and take solace in the fact there are literally hundreds of pages worth of empirical data suggesting PV's are mostly safe and users have managed to turn back the effects of smoking without giving up nicotine or the habit itself.
Now, about your original question:
Yes, we are all lab rats in this great experiment we call vaping, be it you want to or not. Simply by being a vaper, one day you will become part of the statistics.
How do we know it's safe? Very simple. We don't.
We know it is by far safer than smoking, and there is medical data and anecdotal evidence to suggest they are mostly innocuous in the short term, with some people experiencing allergy related issues to either PG, VG or both.
We also know that the levels of nitrosamines (A.K.A. carcinogens) found in the juice are around the same or slightly higher than the nicotine patch and gum, well below actually harmful levels.
Another thing we know is that PG inhalation has been extensively studied since the 1940's and most negative findings have involved minor to negligible symptoms, but no data actually exists (to my knowledge) on the long term (2+ years) of exposure either on humans or in the levels vapers inhale.
Now, what we do not know so much about thus far is what harmful particles, if any, may be created by the nebulization process that happens inside the atomizer, specially when it is gunked up. That burnt taste a lot of people mention across the forum is not from the filler material in the carts. It comes from the build up of old caramelized juice at the atomizer's coil (the gunk) or the wick the coil is wrapped around burning/melting. The cart's filler is there to make contact with the atomizer's bridge, which is what wicks the juice to the atomizer's coil, so it should not not burn because it is never in contact with the coil. The exception to this of course, are cartomizers, where the filler and coil do touch.
The other very important thing we do not know yet are the effects of inhaling the flavoring in the juices. And on a side note, I think it is a good thing when the thing you should be the most concerned about when it comes to e-juice is the safety of the chemicals used for flavor.
And of course, there's the grand mystery of long term effects or lack thereof. And this is something we will never know until a good deal of years have passed and a lot of data has been collected.
Before anyone comes with the blanket statement 'nothing is really safe', let me just say that yes, even blinking when a fly is passing by can kill you. But there is a huge difference between reasonably innocuous and certainly harmful - regardless of the degree of harm.
In that sense, I personally consider PV's to be mostly harmless. Specially when compared to analogs. But the bottom line is we do not know if they are 'safe', and we probably will not for many, many years.
My advice for now? Vape on and take solace in the fact there are literally hundreds of pages worth of empirical data suggesting PV's are mostly safe and users have managed to turn back the effects of smoking without giving up nicotine or the habit itself.
From what I've read lately, it seems that e-cigs are headed down this path. But the government justified huge taxes on analogs based on increased health care expenses. If e-cigs are safer, I wonder how they will justify those kinds of taxes.
Great post Hiryu, this actually answered several questions I had. From what you wrote, it almost looks like atomizers could be safer than cartomizers. As for the flavorings, it occurred to me that people smoke flavored tobacco all the time and have been doing so for decades. And any time we smell something fragrant, we're inhaling particles of it.
I guess I'm just part of the grand experiment, and I'm confident that it's much safer than analog smoking. I just hope in 30 years there isn't a condition called "vaper's lung."
I guess I'm just part of the grand experiment, and I'm confident that it's much safer than analog smoking. I just hope in 30 years there isn't a condition called "vaper's lung."
Agreed.
My guesstimate is the flavorings have the greatest potential for unknown risk.
Very little caramelization occurs w/ some flavors.
The coil on the left looks good after much vaping w/ clean burning liquid.
The coil on the right has a slag buildup after vaping dark colored liquids.
Attachments
As an RN with a very skeptical family, curious but dubious coworkers, and supportive but cautious friends, I've wrestled with this very issue pretty much constanty since my switch. Here's what I say/think about it all.
Professionally, I am bound by law to practice according to evidence-based research. There have been some very enlightening and hopeful studies, but it is a fact that empirically, PVs are not proven safe. Therefore, I could not lay my professional reputation on the line by officially recommending PVs to my patients. Luckily, for now at least, my patients are 8-13 years old. Some of them have tried smoking, but none are addicted, and we have them in a safe and controlled environment.
This leaves me in the "nurse friend that I know" position. This is a grey area that is more uncomfortable than people realize. On one hand, people expect me to talk as a learned medical professional, but they also expect me to be open and honest. When it comes to PVs, this ALWAYS requires a disclaimer.
I always start my responses to friends and family with "Officially, I can't prove this, but..." Then I go on to tell people my own personal experience. I feel healthier. My O2 sats have improved. My taste and smell have improved. My cardiovascular endurance has improved. My coughing has decreased. Long term, I dont know what will happen. I BELIEVE that long term effects will be minimal or non-existent, but I can't promise that. But I would rather roll the dice than take the proven killer.
Do I feel like a guinea pig? Kinda. I'd call it an uncontrolled test subject, but yes. No one is collecting data on me, and no one in the greater scientific world is likely to notice any effects I might have. So good or bad, I myself am unlikely to advance the science behind this technology. But I am proud to say that I am willing to take a chance to potentially improve my health and make sure I see as much of my daughter's life as I have a right to see.
Professionally, I am bound by law to practice according to evidence-based research. There have been some very enlightening and hopeful studies, but it is a fact that empirically, PVs are not proven safe. Therefore, I could not lay my professional reputation on the line by officially recommending PVs to my patients. Luckily, for now at least, my patients are 8-13 years old. Some of them have tried smoking, but none are addicted, and we have them in a safe and controlled environment.
This leaves me in the "nurse friend that I know" position. This is a grey area that is more uncomfortable than people realize. On one hand, people expect me to talk as a learned medical professional, but they also expect me to be open and honest. When it comes to PVs, this ALWAYS requires a disclaimer.
I always start my responses to friends and family with "Officially, I can't prove this, but..." Then I go on to tell people my own personal experience. I feel healthier. My O2 sats have improved. My taste and smell have improved. My cardiovascular endurance has improved. My coughing has decreased. Long term, I dont know what will happen. I BELIEVE that long term effects will be minimal or non-existent, but I can't promise that. But I would rather roll the dice than take the proven killer.
Do I feel like a guinea pig? Kinda. I'd call it an uncontrolled test subject, but yes. No one is collecting data on me, and no one in the greater scientific world is likely to notice any effects I might have. So good or bad, I myself am unlikely to advance the science behind this technology. But I am proud to say that I am willing to take a chance to potentially improve my health and make sure I see as much of my daughter's life as I have a right to see.
My wifes a nurse and we lol at your post when I showed it to her.
If Big Tobacco want a piece, they should be thinking in making eliquid, not on shooting down the competition.
Last time I checked, analogs were not made in China. So they already have the raw material. Might as well produce eliquid and get a share of the $$$, which is what they want.
Then we will have eliquid made by some company with a high QC, and stop worrying about wierd things added to our eliquids, or "fake" Dekang stuff...
Last time I checked, analogs were not made in China. So they already have the raw material. Might as well produce eliquid and get a share of the $$$, which is what they want.
Then we will have eliquid made by some company with a high QC, and stop worrying about wierd things added to our eliquids, or "fake" Dekang stuff...
Hear Hear Carmiol, that would be logical and the "market theory" response to innovation. Unfortunately that isn't how it is because these multinationals have gotten so large and powerful they have no need to spend or change their existing business model when innovation occurs. They have already invested so much in taking over governments that its far cheaper and easier to use that corruption to stop innovation.
I can site several recent examples, but the internet alone breeds so many. Lets take the obvious one, say music and movie publishing. Instead of innovating and figuring out how to deal with the digital "revolution" and profit from it, they have used their lawyers through shell agencies (RIAA, IFPI, MPAA, etc) to sue their customers. Then, in the long game, they use their massive political influence which corruption bought them and get laws passed. The most egregious of these would be, for an American audience and staying current: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Combating_Online_Infringement_and_Counterfeits_Act which adds great firewall style censorship just to protect their obsolete business model. And their tentacles spread far, such as the attempt to do an end-around the law and try and use trade like with: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Combating_Online_Infringement_and_Counterfeits_Act.
Big tobacco is no different so far whether RJR or Japan Tobacco. The goto move is to stop innovation and protect a bad business model. Why not when you are so powerful, you can ignore the market, ignore customers and keep making money without investing in R&D or having to be clever enough to figure out how to keep up.
I can site several recent examples, but the internet alone breeds so many. Lets take the obvious one, say music and movie publishing. Instead of innovating and figuring out how to deal with the digital "revolution" and profit from it, they have used their lawyers through shell agencies (RIAA, IFPI, MPAA, etc) to sue their customers. Then, in the long game, they use their massive political influence which corruption bought them and get laws passed. The most egregious of these would be, for an American audience and staying current: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Combating_Online_Infringement_and_Counterfeits_Act which adds great firewall style censorship just to protect their obsolete business model. And their tentacles spread far, such as the attempt to do an end-around the law and try and use trade like with: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Combating_Online_Infringement_and_Counterfeits_Act.
Big tobacco is no different so far whether RJR or Japan Tobacco. The goto move is to stop innovation and protect a bad business model. Why not when you are so powerful, you can ignore the market, ignore customers and keep making money without investing in R&D or having to be clever enough to figure out how to keep up.
Couldn't agree more. After getting a good PV, your purchases do center around the juice, and in that sense it is a lot like the printers market. The hardware is a little expensive, sometimes you have to spend a little on spare parts, but where your real expenditures are is the ink/juice.
The best bet for BT to get in the e-cig world, both in terms of investment and practicality, would be to just re-brand already popular Chinese models to keep their gear 510/901 compatible and focus the brunt of their business model in the juice.
I dont agree completely. I would swear on Boge, for example, however I would be a little skeptical about XYZ brand, even if they were rebranded Boges (and didnt state they were Boge), 'cause I wouldnt be able to know whi the manufacturer is.
Yes, but Bogetech is one of the 'original' manufacturers.
A lot of the 'brand' e-cigs out there are re-branded units from trusted and well established Chinese manufacturers: Boge, SLB, Joye and Smoore. For instance, we know the Volcano Magma is just a standard rebranded 510. We just don't know if it's provenance is Boge, SLB or Joye. We do know, however, that even if it is an overpriced 510 some people love it BECAUSE of the rebranding and the flavors.
So I still stand by my statement. I think that is exactly what BT should do.
A lot of the 'brand' e-cigs out there are re-branded units from trusted and well established Chinese manufacturers: Boge, SLB, Joye and Smoore. For instance, we know the Volcano Magma is just a standard rebranded 510. We just don't know if it's provenance is Boge, SLB or Joye. We do know, however, that even if it is an overpriced 510 some people love it BECAUSE of the rebranding and the flavors.
So I still stand by my statement. I think that is exactly what BT should do.
My calculation is 20 chemicals are better than 600 additives + 4,000 chemicals from burning analogs (Wiki). I've been a guinea pig for BT for 30 years, at least change the experiment.
The juice is the thing. It goes into our lungs. Except for batts that explode or catch fire, I'm less concerned with hardware. I started out trusting US juice makers, got to be safer, right? But I've reversed course after trying various vendors precisely because I don't know by whom and how the juice is made. I'm vaping only Dekang now. But OMG, it's Chinese! Language difference aside, at least DK has some standards and list their ingredients, mostly Dow Chemical.
E Liquid FAQ - Dekang Biotechnoly Co., Ltd
Oh, but China is a safety disaster. It is, but it depends on which products. In this global world, every product comes from everywhere, almost. Today's flavor in America is Spinach...recalled. Last month, I think we had 70 million pounds of chicken or something recalled. Nowhere is completely save.
The juice is the thing. It goes into our lungs. Except for batts that explode or catch fire, I'm less concerned with hardware. I started out trusting US juice makers, got to be safer, right? But I've reversed course after trying various vendors precisely because I don't know by whom and how the juice is made. I'm vaping only Dekang now. But OMG, it's Chinese! Language difference aside, at least DK has some standards and list their ingredients, mostly Dow Chemical.
E Liquid FAQ - Dekang Biotechnoly Co., Ltd
Oh, but China is a safety disaster. It is, but it depends on which products. In this global world, every product comes from everywhere, almost. Today's flavor in America is Spinach...recalled. Last month, I think we had 70 million pounds of chicken or something recalled. Nowhere is completely save.
Last edited:
By some estimates, HALF of FDA budget on drug approval comes from the drug lords (pharma)!
FDA also gets part of tax revenue from Big Tobacco Also has several members from BT on the panel
Also has several members from BT on the panel
Last edited:
BT, high QC? BT has practice nothing but population control, as in addict the heck out of them, for > 100 years. I would not trust them to clean my attys.
If BT hadn't bought off Anthony Weiner to outlaw cigs in the mail, I'd still be smoking generics. I suppose thanks are in order.
Last edited:
I dont know why everybody is expecting that there is a health issue with ecigs.
50 years ago (before ultrasound) when a woman was pregnant, they would x-ray her to see if the baby was fine. Later on they found that caused mutations and a bunch of unhealthy stuff. Now x-ray places have a huge sign that says that if you are pregnant, stay away!
When ultrasound came out, there were women that refused to get an ultrasound because "it was untested" and "nobody know if it was worse than x-rays" because "everybody though x-rays were safe", etc etc etc
Decades later we find there are no problems with ultrasounds and they are still used.
Maybe there is a possibility that ecigs are as safe as drinking coffee. Still adictive, still might be problems in the long run, but not a big deal in most of the cases...
50 years ago (before ultrasound) when a woman was pregnant, they would x-ray her to see if the baby was fine. Later on they found that caused mutations and a bunch of unhealthy stuff. Now x-ray places have a huge sign that says that if you are pregnant, stay away!
When ultrasound came out, there were women that refused to get an ultrasound because "it was untested" and "nobody know if it was worse than x-rays" because "everybody though x-rays were safe", etc etc etc
Decades later we find there are no problems with ultrasounds and they are still used.
Maybe there is a possibility that ecigs are as safe as drinking coffee. Still adictive, still might be problems in the long run, but not a big deal in most of the cases...
I don't feel like a guinea pig. I feel happy that I'm not smoking. I feel happy that I'm getting exactly what I want - the nicotine along with the hand to mouth and "smoking activity". I feel happy that I'm not getting the crappy stuff loaded in cigarettes and am not breathing in smoke all day.
I KNEW smoking was bad for me and I did it anyway. I know the FDA tested some e-cigs and would have banned them in a heartbeat if they'd been able to find anything significant (despite not banning cigarettes even though they absolutely have tons and tons of chemicals that are deadly and that are actually added to tobacco).
I know that not smoking has helped me have more energy and my sense of smell and taste are coming back. I know that vaping is what is keeping me from smoking.
I don't feel any more a guinea pig about e-cigs than I do regarding caffeine (which has, for years, had the back and forth of "it causes cancer! no it doesn't!"), alcohol (it's bad for you! no, a glass of red wine is healthy!), car exhaust, cell phone cancer, or any of the millions of ingredients and additives you find in pretty much anything in your kitchen cabinet, make-up case, or medicine cabinet. Have you read the warnings on ibuprofen lately??
I KNEW smoking was bad for me and I did it anyway. I know the FDA tested some e-cigs and would have banned them in a heartbeat if they'd been able to find anything significant (despite not banning cigarettes even though they absolutely have tons and tons of chemicals that are deadly and that are actually added to tobacco).
I know that not smoking has helped me have more energy and my sense of smell and taste are coming back. I know that vaping is what is keeping me from smoking.
I don't feel any more a guinea pig about e-cigs than I do regarding caffeine (which has, for years, had the back and forth of "it causes cancer! no it doesn't!"), alcohol (it's bad for you! no, a glass of red wine is healthy!), car exhaust, cell phone cancer, or any of the millions of ingredients and additives you find in pretty much anything in your kitchen cabinet, make-up case, or medicine cabinet. Have you read the warnings on ibuprofen lately??
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
- Locked
