Anyone doing their own non-tobacco flavor extracts?

[holy_handgrenade]

I've been lurking here for a few months and have been soaking up the info left and right. I've thus far tried TFA, LorAnn, and FA flavors but all of them seem to be lacking for me.

I've been making my own extracts for years for baking and it got me thinking about doing some for my vaping flavors. The really big thing that is getting me is this strong aversion to alcohol based flavors and strong lean towards PG or VG based flavors.

Knowing the science behind an alcohol extract, I know that you cant really get more efficient without involving all sorts of chemicals and solvents. The foodie areas I'm used to hanging around with have tipped me off to FDA labeling laws that show that an "Extract" must have x% of source ingredient, then no more than 68% alcohol and 40% water in the final product. If it doesnt have that, such as using PG, it must be labeled as a "Flavor" <edit> forgot to mention that the reason this came up is if you're looking for good organic pure flavors you need to seek out the "Extract" as opposed to "Flavor". Most Flavors on the market are PG based and tend to be less potent and far less concentrated than the alcohol based "Extracts" </edit>

So far I'm having a hard time finding the science behind proper extraction using PG or VG, as it seems that these are just osmosis based extractions which arent capable of high concentrations of flavor. Introducing heat tends to destroy a lot of the subtleties of a flavor and it seems, at least in NET extractions, heat is required.

Can someone point me to the science (not fluff and superstition or paranoid caution) behind PG or VG extraction methods? Or can I simply use my effective and potent alcohol extractions and just steep post mixing for alcohol removal?

 

[Hoosier]

Actually PG and VG are alcohols. The "ol" on the end of the chemical name is the give away on that. (VG is also called Glycerol if anyone is wondering why I said the "ol" at the end of the name is a tell.)

The difference between VG, PG and PGA is how much can be saturated into the solution. PGA is better at it than PG which is better at it than VG.

One of the reoccurring issues with extractions is that flavor is usually part of the fats or sugars of the food. Things which gunk heated coils fairly quickly even if all the other solids are effectively removed. The fats in coffee and tea seem to be acceptable to many with regards to how quickly it gunks up the coil. (Probably depends on how good it is...I know I have a recipe that is really good at gunking up coils, but it's good enough that I don't mind it too much.)

I can't point you to any science articles on the subject.

You might try airing-out a mix to get some PGA out, but I have a hard time believing it will get all the PGA out without adding some heat. Steeping, a closed bottle sitting out of sunlight, is unlikely to help with evaporation.

 

[holy_handgrenade]

Awesome! Thanks for the input. So I guess it's just a trial and error type test, eh? I'm good with that

 

[Hoosier]

Yep, pretty much like everything else with DIY mixing.

Even if it doesn't work, it's a great learning experience.

 

[Wingsfan0310]

Here's a thread that delves into Coffee flavor extraction that may give you some ideas: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/239733-coffee-flavor.html

Cheers,
Steve

 

[holy_handgrenade]

Ok, from what I've read in the coffee flavor thread it appears that filtration is the key to removing the oils/solids from the mix. An extra potent flavor would require even less flavor to the mix, so I'm going to experiment heavily with alcohol extraction and filtration.

Starting with some Citrus, pineapple, apple, pear, blackberry, and pomegranate. As things come in season, I'll have to expand into blueberries and strawberries.

I guess I'll keep everyone posted as my experiments start showing results. I'm jarring up a bunch of fruit tonight and tomorrow, so wont know anything for a few weeks.

 

[jRedBeerd]

Good question OP and I hope more people can chime in on this topic.
It's my prediction that these simple natural extractions will become more popular as vape technology matures. Especially since the hobby is rapidly becoming more complex and people will continue to try to be reminded that vaping is supposed to be a truly healthy alternative to smoking. We are by nature risky people!

If I had more time I would certainly be in my lab concocting and extracting, decanting and puffing, but real-life prevails!
I think this area of DIY is quite ripe for experimentation, and I hope to join in soon.

I did however run across this thread: "http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/e-liquid-recipes/433729-my-amazing-discovery-tastes-yummy-soothes-throat.html

Good info in there and some excellent attention to detail in her lab.

Good luck, Vape on!

 

[Dougiestyle]

I've found that extracting with PG and PGA in equal parts together yields a good amount of the desired flavor. Once I've filtered the organic material, I use a candle warmer plate to evaporate the PGA. I only extract tobacco and have done some tea in the past. The low heat of the candle warmer hasn't affected the flavor to my knowledge. I hope this helps.

 

[holy_handgrenade]

Yeah, now I'm excited; now it just seems to be a matter of time to wait for the alcohol extractions to take place. I'm trying to avoid heat, so it's just a "cellar temp" extraction - approx 68 degrees in there. So I'm expecting it'll take about 2-3 weeks for the flavors to be usable, although probably 6-8 weeks for proper aging.

The brewer in me wants the masceration to age prior to testing, but the kid in me is probably going to win out and attempt some experiments prior to that - if for no other reason than to document when the best time to use the flavor is.

I guess I should mention that I'm using pint sized jars (approx 473ml) So there will be plenty of material to play with.

I'll have to experiment with coffee and spices as well.

 

[LoveVanilla]

Dang, now we know. Hoosier has a PhD in vapology! Nice.

 

[holy_handgrenade]

Thanks for the link JRedBeerd!

That post was helpful and I may try some of the filtration techniques posted there. The difference in what I'm attempting to do though is make a highly concentrated extract, something that will be greatly diluted in the final ejuice mix. Ideally if I can get it to where I only need < 0.5-1.0% flavor I will have succeeded. I think due to this, any sugars or oils that may make it past filtration will be in such a small quantity that it may not affect the coils or raise any health concerns from me. That's the goal anyway

 

[holy_handgrenade]

Ok, for starters I have 18 pints locked away and will be monitoring them over the next 2-4 weeks.

Several of these are just different processing of the fruit to maximize extraction.

Example: I have 3 orange jars. One is just the zest of several oranges. One jar is just chopped oranges (peel and all). One jar is carefully processed zest of several oranges and chunks of pith and membrane free fruit. I've heard pros/cons to all 3 methods, so this is the experiment

I also have several blends of vanilla steeping. And the rest are straight forward apples, pears, pineapple; just chopped whole fruit covered in PGA. I also put back a batch of blackberries and pomegranate. Both required that I slightly crush to break the membranes and slightly juice in order to allow the ethanol to extract flavor.

I'll also be putting in some coffee and cocoa nibs in soon and trying a cinnamon and an anise.

I'll keep everyone posted as to potency, flavor, and overall process as I wrap everything up.

 

[we2rcool]

Being herbalsts, we2 make a ton of alcohol extractions. 'Just a word of warning...

...when doing fresh fruits, there is a SUBSTANTIAL amount of water being added to the alcohol (not to mention the sugars, oils, etc). Since vg/pg are both anti-microbial, you're not likely to run into problems after mixing them - but be careful to check them frequently for "signs of life". Depending upon the proof of alcohol and water content of the fruit, one can easily dilute the alcohol enough to get into the mold/bacteria/fermentation zone.

Fwiw, we can see using the resulting extraction at full strength with the addition of some nic (assuming the fruit was extracted in vg or pg) - but can't imagine them being strong enough to be able to use at 10-20%...unless one does double/triple extractions. (a double extraction is using the filtered results of the first extraction as the menstruum for a second extraction). But then there's all that water from the fresh fruit again.

'Hope you can figger out a way to make it work!

 

[holy_handgrenade]

Being herbalsts, we2 make a ton of alcohol extractions. 'Just a word of warning...

...when doing fresh fruits, there is a SUBSTANTIAL amount of water being added to the alcohol (not to mention the sugars, oils, etc). Since vg/pg are both anti-microbial, you're not likely to run into problems after mixing them - but be careful to check them frequently for "signs of life". Depending upon the proof of alcohol and water content of the fruit, one can easily dilute the alcohol enough to get into the mold/bacteria/fermentation zone.

Fwiw, we can see using the resulting extraction at full strength with the addition of some nic (assuming the fruit was extracted in vg or pg) - but can't imagine them being strong enough to be able to use at 10-20%...unless one does double/triple extractions. (a double extraction is using the filtered results of the first extraction as the menstruum for a second extraction). But then there's all that water from the fresh fruit again.

'Hope you can figger out a way to make it work!

Yeah, I'm using everclear, so 95% PGA (190 proof). The plan was to do a 4-fold extraction. So, it should be pretty bold a flavor, and since alcohol holds a much I'm going to assume and test that my extractions will come out right around 60-70% alcohol either from natural extra water from the fruit or from added water to the final mix to aid in filtration. I did take a hydrometer reading prior to adding alcohol to the fruit as well as after. I'll take further readings at each step to measure what the difference is, and hopefully be able to compare the final reading to the initial reading to find out the actual amount of PGA still left in solution (i'm going to assume some loss through evaporation during filtering as well as some added water.

Again, there's a reason I'm using full pint sized jars and doing 18 of them. I'm trying to throw as many different methods as possible to help develop a good and consistent process.

 

[03FXDWG]

I'm most curious about the cocoa nibs. Where did you find them? Also, did you try any dehydrated fruit? I would think that would be the best way to make a fruit flavoring but will be anxiously awaiting your report on the whole, fresh fruit experiments. Thank you for taking the time to blaze a path for us.

 

[yellowsnow]

I'm very interested in this process. I started a thread in the (liquid extraction from tobacco forum but it got deleted). (Thats a whole other story). Anyway I will be taking any information from here and hopefully applying it in my process.

 

[holy_handgrenade]

I'm most curious about the cocoa nibs. Where did you find them? Also, did you try any dehydrated fruit? I would think that would be the best way to make a fruit flavoring but will be anxiously awaiting your report on the whole, fresh fruit experiments. Thank you for taking the time to blaze a path for us.

I've been making my own chocolate for a couple of years now. It's a fun hobby, albeit expensive; but I can make fine chocolates for about half the costs of any candy shop or grocery store So, chocolatealchemy.com has a wide selection of cocoa beans you can buy. They're all raw, so must be roasted, cracked, and winnowed to result in nubs.

I'm making a batch of chocolate soon, so I'm testing on about 1/2lb of cocoa nibs.


I havent tried dehydrated fruit mostly because dehydration tends to change flavors and due to heat involved may disrupt some of the more subtle flavors and aromas. That being said, I just bought some dried apricots and some raisins and unsweetened dried cranberries and blueberries to see how they all turn out.

 

[buffaloguy]

You are headed down a fun path doing extractions. However a search would have revealed alot of the answers you are looking for in regards to this.

Unfortunately, you will find out that doing fruits of any kind via the methods we commonly use for coffees, teas, dry herbs... will absolutely positively and most definitely NOT work for fruits, nuts, or berries. The oils of nuts are are too much and the flavor of them will not be pronounced enough even if you manage to remove the oils. Fruits or berries (dehydrated OR fresh) contain far too much natural sugars and will not only drownout the flavor itself, but will ruin your coils fast... like in minutes... not hours.

The only way to do these is with distillation. I have tried every way I can think of, using just peels, using pulp, using seeds, using juice itself, straining relentlessly.... combos of some and or all of the above with fruit... its a no go. Ive resigned my extractions to coffee, teas, and herbs. I am sure I would love the experience of owning a distiller but Im not about to invest that kind of cash.

I absolutely urge you to keep doing extractions, but you will find fruits to be very very difficult. If you can invent a novel way to make fruits and berries work without distillation Im all ears.

Added note... Im in the opposite end of the camp on using heat. Ive done extractions with and without and I get FAR better, faster, and more consistent results using heat. The key is not to overheat. 150°F steady for about 30 mins for coffees, 20 mins for teas. I have no bitterness or any flavor loss. The times I have allowed time to do it without heat I end up with comparatively more weak and much much less flavorful extracts.

 

[holy_handgrenade]

Well, I've looked into distillation as well. Lots of laws and regs which vary from country to country and state to state. Luckily where I live, as long as I keep it small (under 1 gallon capacity) I can do that, however, I'm limited to what I'm legally allowed to do. I.e. I can use a steam distillation or a water distillation, but using alcohol as a solvent for extraction is 100% illegal at home. So, as of yet, I havent experimented, and really dont have any plans to go that route.

So I'll do some research.

I am quite curious though: for all this "dont use oils" warnings, it seems that everyone wants to use essential oils and absolutes (concentrated essential oils with waxes and resins) The distillation techniques are there for essential oil extractions and separation of oils and water. Would that not render my now concentrated "flavor" unvapable due to oil content? Or at the very least, ill-advised to vape?

Within the flavor industry, exactly what I'm doing is how the extracts are produced. Commercially they use PGA to extract the flavor, and use a high amount of starting plant material. Vanilla for example, is required to have a minimum of 13.5 ounces of vanilla bean for every gallon of PGA. After the process is completed, they add water to ensure that there is no more than 68% AVB in the final extract. Admittedly, vanilla is a more potent plant to extract, so each fruit would have it's own mass to gallon ratio.

Just a quick note on legal distillation types: Water distillation is using a hot water bath to soak/steep the plant materials in. This I can see being used to better effect with purees or finely chopped/food processed fruits to maximize extractions. Legality note: This is US federal law as enforced by Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms; State and Local laws may be more restrictive, be sure to check where you live before you do anything of this nature.

Steam distillation is holding the fresh plant material above boiling water usually in a basket, the steam then extracts the flavor/oils during it's processing through the still.

The process worries me though, as it does destroy heat sensitive volatiles. It may be good for aromas, or concentrating a primary flavoring such as vanillin in vanilla, but it removes all the other subtleties of the agricultural products. Even with low temps in the 120-150F range. If you want a very good example of that, try tasting pasteurized vs unpasteurized orange juice. Simply Orange is an excellent orange juice that simply squeezes the oranges, but the juice is flash pasteurized which leaves it tasting different than if you had those same oranges and fresh pressed them/squeezed them in your kitchen.

 

[yellowsnow]

Steam distillation is holding the fresh plant material above boiling water usually in a basket, the steam then extracts the flavor/oils during it's processing through the still.

I have a machine that does this exactly but in a completely closed environment. The steam rises into a cooling chamber and recollected as a liquid. I'm looking for anyone that is familiar with this type of experiment. As I stated above a mod closed the thread stating Item displayed is not a "tobacco" extraction device." The closed thread is here. http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/liquid-extraction-tobacco/

I believe it is much more of a tobacco extraction device than a slow cooker.