Anyone else having sparking with flat tops (VTC5) .
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When my new & improved Grand was less than a week old, I was experiencing misfires and week hits for a 0.45Ω 0.6Ω coil. I opened the door and saw quite a bit of arcing on my flat top VTC4 button top Panny. I found that rotating the battery brought it back to life for a few hits, but not for long. When I pulled the battery, there was quite a lot of carbon build-up (or something black anyway).
So I sanded the top of the battery (Iso or eraser wouldn't touch it), rubbed 99% Iso on the gold contact pin and spring and put 'er back together. That's what I'm talkin' about! Great, solid hits every time. I decided to put a thin film of NO-OX-ID "A SPECIAL" on the battery ends and REO contacts. It's been through quite a few refills and battery cycles since then with no problems since.
So I sanded the top of the battery (Iso or eraser wouldn't touch it), rubbed 99% Iso on the gold contact pin and spring and put 'er back together. That's what I'm talkin' about! Great, solid hits every time. I decided to put a thin film of NO-OX-ID "A SPECIAL" on the battery ends and REO contacts. It's been through quite a few refills and battery cycles since then with no problems since.
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Arcing behaves much like lighting, the arc will initiate at the point of least resistance, essentially the lighting rod of the point of contact. By sanding the top of your battery you've exchanged one lighting rod for dozens (or hundreds?).
You can not stop arcing
...all that sanding and noalox will accomplish is to create many smaller arcs making them harder to see, further hidden them with a smear of noalox...and added a bunch of resistance to the circuit by removing a ton of contact surface area. If you really must "sand" the tops of your batts, buy a couple sheets of 1000 grit (it'll last you a lifetime)
I've got 15+ years experience as an industrial controls electrician and have repaired a ".... ton" of contacts, believe me when I say, arcing, although looks disconcerting, is nothing to be concerned about...Rob's new contacts are a really good design imo, although, the elegantly simple design of the Grand, Mini and Mini 2.1 exposes it's self to a variable that Rob has no control over, the other half of the electrical contact...or, the condition of your batt top caps. In the electrical world, contacts are "paired". One method to fix paired contacts is to slide a very thin strip with a "very" fine abrasion coating between the contact points, manually press them together (sandwiching the contact cleaner) then repeatedly slide the cleaner out...this marries the contact surfaces, creating maximum surface area.
Rob solved this issue of not being able to pair contacts by giving the old contact a "point" to deal with the variable he had no control over, what else could he do? Unfortunately it had a very small surface area and prone to heat damage from the higher and higher currents we were driving through it...you all recall that by sanding what you thought was the oxidization off the "point" you got better performance, less arcing?...that's because you where actually increasing the contact surface area...it's a thin edge so sanding wasn't a big deal, but sanding the flat surface of your batts?...very bad idea.
Along comes the S/O contact...cause we demanded it...along with our demands come some caveats that we will just have to deal with...
Because Rob couldn't possibly invent a contact that could carry much higher current and "marry" to thousands of batts, arcing has become an issue (it's actually not an issue but...) I've been thinking of how could we get back the adaptability of a pointed contact and keep the great new surface area we've been given?...my thoughts are the button base that drives the contact down onto the batt is currently flat and unforgiving...what if it were slightly hemispherical? A hemispherical surface would better allow the flat edge of the contact to roll one way or the other to better align with our invariably bent/concaved/dented battery tops giving the most surface area possible to the contact point. Not for an instant am I questioning the design, it's just an observation.
Understandably, a hemispherical button surface would be a pain to machine (and add to costs)... but you could do this yourself quite easily...by dropping a small blob of 2 part epoxy on the end that presses the contact down and let it cure in a nice 1mm thick rounded hump...this may allow the contact to conform to the many variations of battery tops ...
You can not stop arcing
...all that sanding and noalox will accomplish is to create many smaller arcs making them harder to see, further hidden them with a smear of noalox...and added a bunch of resistance to the circuit by removing a ton of contact surface area. If you really must "sand" the tops of your batts, buy a couple sheets of 1000 grit (it'll last you a lifetime)
I've got 15+ years experience as an industrial controls electrician and have repaired a ".... ton" of contacts, believe me when I say, arcing, although looks disconcerting, is nothing to be concerned about...Rob's new contacts are a really good design imo, although, the elegantly simple design of the Grand, Mini and Mini 2.1 exposes it's self to a variable that Rob has no control over, the other half of the electrical contact...or, the condition of your batt top caps. In the electrical world, contacts are "paired". One method to fix paired contacts is to slide a very thin strip with a "very" fine abrasion coating between the contact points, manually press them together (sandwiching the contact cleaner) then repeatedly slide the cleaner out...this marries the contact surfaces, creating maximum surface area.
Rob solved this issue of not being able to pair contacts by giving the old contact a "point" to deal with the variable he had no control over, what else could he do? Unfortunately it had a very small surface area and prone to heat damage from the higher and higher currents we were driving through it...you all recall that by sanding what you thought was the oxidization off the "point" you got better performance, less arcing?...that's because you where actually increasing the contact surface area...it's a thin edge so sanding wasn't a big deal, but sanding the flat surface of your batts?...very bad idea.
Along comes the S/O contact...cause we demanded it...along with our demands come some caveats that we will just have to deal with...
Because Rob couldn't possibly invent a contact that could carry much higher current and "marry" to thousands of batts, arcing has become an issue (it's actually not an issue but...) I've been thinking of how could we get back the adaptability of a pointed contact and keep the great new surface area we've been given?...my thoughts are the button base that drives the contact down onto the batt is currently flat and unforgiving...what if it were slightly hemispherical? A hemispherical surface would better allow the flat edge of the contact to roll one way or the other to better align with our invariably bent/concaved/dented battery tops giving the most surface area possible to the contact point. Not for an instant am I questioning the design, it's just an observation.
Understandably, a hemispherical button surface would be a pain to machine (and add to costs)... but you could do this yourself quite easily...by dropping a small blob of 2 part epoxy on the end that presses the contact down and let it cure in a nice 1mm thick rounded hump...this may allow the contact to conform to the many variations of battery tops ...
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The arcing didn't bother me in the least. It was the misfires. I only sanded the one battery that had the problem, using 1500 grit.
Later I will use Iso to clean all surfaces and see if there's any difference in voltage drop. Then I'll let it run naked for a while. If it happens again, I may use DeoxIT.
I cleaned an awful lot of contacts myself as a Navy ET.
Sent from some ethereal device.
Later I will use Iso to clean all surfaces and see if there's any difference in voltage drop. Then I'll let it run naked for a while. If it happens again, I may use DeoxIT.
I cleaned an awful lot of contacts myself as a Navy ET.
Sent from some ethereal device.
I find this arcing discussion most interesting and thanks for all the commentary.
My REOs are only a few days old and I have observed the following:
With flat tops I see a very small spark when I let go the fire button. Happens on 0.8 ohm coil, not visible on 1.4 ohm coil.
With button tops, i see no arcing but I think it may be because the area is more hidden (with the button itself a bit higher up)
My batteries are the new purple Efest 18650 IMR
- buttons are 30A 2100 mah
- flat tops are 35A 2500 mah
We are struggling to get genuine AW batts here in South Africa.
My REOs are only a few days old and I have observed the following:
With flat tops I see a very small spark when I let go the fire button. Happens on 0.8 ohm coil, not visible on 1.4 ohm coil.
With button tops, i see no arcing but I think it may be because the area is more hidden (with the button itself a bit higher up)
My batteries are the new purple Efest 18650 IMR
- buttons are 30A 2100 mah
- flat tops are 35A 2500 mah
We are struggling to get genuine AW batts here in South Africa.
Arcing behaves much like lighting, the arc will initiate at the point of least resistance, essentially the lighting rod of the point of contact. By sanding the top of your battery you've exchanged one lighting rod for dozens (or hundreds?).
You can not stop arcing
...all that sanding and noalox will accomplish is to create many smaller arcs making them harder to see, further hidden them with a smear of noalox...and added a bunch of resistance to the circuit by removing a ton of contact surface area. If you really must "sand" the tops of your batts, buy a couple sheets of 1000 grit (it'll last you a lifetime)
I've got 15+ years experience as an industrial controls electrician and have repaired a ".... ton" of contacts, believe me when I say, arcing, although looks disconcerting, is nothing to be concerned about...Rob's new contacts are a really good design imo, although, the elegantly simple design of the Grand, Mini and Mini 2.1 exposes it's self to a variable that Rob has no control over, the other half of the electrical contact...or, the condition of your batt top caps. In the electrical world, contacts are "paired". One method to fix paired contacts is to slide a very thin strip with a "very" fine abrasion coating between the contact points, manually press them together (sandwiching the contact cleaner) then repeatedly slide the cleaner out...this marries the contact surfaces, creating maximum surface area.
Rob solved this issue of not being able to pair contacts by giving the old contact a "point" to deal with the variable he had no control over, what else could he do? Unfortunately it had a very small surface area and prone to heat damage from the higher and higher currents we were driving through it...you all recall that by sanding what you thought was the oxidization off the "point" you got better performance, less arcing?...that's because you where actually increasing the contact surface area...it's a thin edge so sanding wasn't a big deal, but sanding the flat surface of your batts?...very bad idea.
Along comes the S/O contact...cause we demanded it...along with our demands come some caveats that we will just have to deal with...
Because Rob couldn't possibly invent a contact that could carry much higher current and "marry" to thousands of batts, arcing has become an issue (it's actually not an issue but...) I've been thinking of how could we get back the adaptability of a pointed contact and keep the great new surface area we've been given?...my thoughts are the button base that drives the contact down onto the batt is currently flat and unforgiving...what if it were slightly hemispherical? A hemispherical surface would better allow the flat edge of the contact to roll one way or the other to better align with our invariably bent/concaved/dented battery tops giving the most surface area possible to the contact point. Not for an instant am I questioning the design, it's just an observation.
Understandably, a hemispherical button surface would be a pain to machine (and add to costs)... but you could do this yourself quite easily...by dropping a small blob of 2 part epoxy on the end that presses the contact down and let it cure in a nice 1mm thick rounded hump...this may allow the contact to conform to the many variations of battery tops ...
Good Grief son... And they call me "encyclopedia"? And by the way "I believe you have my stapler".
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uVD3KPUnKHk
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So the sanding of my battery terminals could be the cause of the bad performance I've been experiencing lately! hmm! this does make sense, I've sanded the battery terminal's twice in the last month, I follow the big clean of the reo with a voltage drop test and noticed it hasn't been the best lately!
I'm presuming the rubbing down of my brass firing pin is also a nono!? as it's producing scratches on the surface & more spark contact area's??
While we're here talking battery's can some also answer this question I have about heating and compressing a micro coil on a mech! is this shorting the battery!?
as i'm writing this my VTC5's have come through the mail
I'm presuming the rubbing down of my brass firing pin is also a nono!? as it's producing scratches on the surface & more spark contact area's??
While we're here talking battery's can some also answer this question I have about heating and compressing a micro coil on a mech! is this shorting the battery!?
as i'm writing this my VTC5's have come through the mail
In the old days before electronic ignition systems you could get a points file, they are used to file the high current points (switch) to fire the coil to drive the spark plugs on an automobile engine. These files are small and fine pitch, they might be good for a quick swipe over a battery terminal (just one or two strokes to clean it up). I know that wet and dry sandpaper can cause the points not to make contact, due to the tiny particles left behind by the sandpaper.
Its shorting the battery if you are still firing the coil when you touch it with the tweezers to compress it.
Thanks for the info IAN...Can I just point you here to my source, post #56 >>http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/coil-builds/564269-help-please-6.html
Thanks
Oh and I don't see any sparking at .3Ω these VTC5's are hitting hard, without taking the internal resistance off I have 0.36vd not bad .... on the sheet it sais 'Internal Impedance 13.0mΩ' so does that make it 0.23vd ??
Thanks
Oh and I don't see any sparking at .3Ω these VTC5's are hitting hard, without taking the internal resistance off I have 0.36vd not bad
.... on the sheet it sais 'Internal Impedance 13.0mΩ' so does that make it 0.23vd ??
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Long winded I know but it was mostly to put some minds at ease. I appreciate that there's a lot of voodoo with electricity for some, and seeing sparks coming out of something we're holding in our hand and putting up to our face can definitely raise anxiety levels. I also wanted to point out that because of the massive variations of batts and top cap surface conditions I wanted to try to dispel the "I'm using the same batts as so-in-so and same coil resistance so why am I getting sparking and so-in-so isn't??? what's wrong with my mod? what am I doing wrong?
If you can possibly achieve it, the optimal surface for our contacts is a mirror finish, very hard to do (and to keep) but if you think about it, if you want to carry high current you need a thicker wire, if you .... 2 ends of this thick wire together do you want mirror polished flat surfaces or rough ridged surfaces where only the peaks touch (essentially reducing the wire thickness)? This decrease in contact area creates a choke point for current flow, a resistance, voltage will be higher on the battery side of this contact than the coil side...aka, a voltage drop. This resistance (and ensuing voltage drop) is seen as a load (yet another reason why it arcs) and this load will create heat, which will burn away at the peaks of the sanded contact surface and create carbon, further exacerbating this already poor condition so what do we do?...sand it again, and again, etc.
I'm not trying to be all "preachy" I just want to try to help peeps to get the most out of these awesome devices...but as awesome and simple as these devices are, due to the relatively low voltages yet very high currents, basic ohms law can really bite you in the .......
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I share a very similar background 20 years as an IBEW AJ and the last three years as an automatic train control tech for DC Metrorail suffice to say I understand your logic. However considering the current flow in comparison to the quality and size of the contact points most of the destruction in your statement can be virtually nullified with frequent use of Noalox or if you wanted to go one better Coppersheild. In my world it will stand up to 750vdc @ 20k+ amps in horrible conditions. While Coppersheld would work beautifully the mess would not be worth the aggravation but for those that must have the absolute lowest resistance there is no substitute.
Well crap, now I'm rambling.
having this issue since i got the upgraded contacts, the sparks leaves small spots on my vtc4's and i have to rotate them to get a good hit. is there something to do about it or just swap em for new ones when it get unbareable?
Same here but now my wife thinks i'm double nuts for standing in the closet for 10 minutes ......
Thanks Lauren
....... Oh 1.3 ohms VTC5 for me.
This is being discussed on another thread... http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=13378878
Matty brought up some great points that I had to explore. ..I think he's right...there is an issue with the surface of the Sonys pos. terminal.
When I get to my "good" drill press I'm going to try and lap it (mill it flat then polish it)... see what happens...
Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk
Matty brought up some great points that I had to explore. ..I think he's right...there is an issue with the surface of the Sonys pos. terminal.
When I get to my "good" drill press I'm going to try and lap it (mill it flat then polish it)... see what happens...
Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk
Sorry Laurin ...... spelled your name wrong ...... bet thats never happened before
That's (the issue with the surface material) what I was wondering about the Pannies I've been using. I still had the problem with the NO-OX-ID, though it would last longer. So I took one of the batteries to a dremel and polished it to a mirror smooth finish and those black spots were actually pits. I was only using a polishing compound and didn't have time to try to go deeper for a perfectly flat finish.
After this polish, I tried one battery with no compounds and the other with NO-OX-ID. Both had to be rotated to keep firing. Then I hand sanded with 1500 grit, but it didn't go deep enough and switched to 800. I followed this up with DeOxit cleaner and DeOxit Shield (had tried DeOxit Gold earlier with no improvement). This was two days ago and so far, things have improved.
I'll check that other thread, though. Especially since I'm going to want to buy some 30+A batteries for this REO soon.
After this polish, I tried one battery with no compounds and the other with NO-OX-ID. Both had to be rotated to keep firing. Then I hand sanded with 1500 grit, but it didn't go deep enough and switched to 800. I followed this up with DeOxit cleaner and DeOxit Shield (had tried DeOxit Gold earlier with no improvement). This was two days ago and so far, things have improved.
I'll check that other thread, though. Especially since I'm going to want to buy some 30+A batteries for this REO soon.
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