Anyone else read the Electronic cigarette liquids analysis-evaluating potentially harmful ingredients

[Kurt]

Hi Kurt,

Thanks for the great work!

uh, what is BO?

You mention custards, would that extend to chocolates as well?

Thanks!

Any sweet desert flavor, especially creamy ones, are suspect.

 

[Firecrow]

This is good, but only if the limit of detection is about 1 microgram/mL or less. That is generally where the test becomes more expensive. I have seen many less expensive test results where the limit of detection is very high, making false negatives when significant DA/AP is actually present very possible.

I'll get more details on the process and sensitivity. I am thinking about just submitting my own samples for testing just to find out for myself.

It surprises me the lack of reaction the e-juice manufacturers have had. The liabilities are enormous. I can see future lawsuits on this basis. If I were in the business I would have in house testing capability as well as third party confirmation and keep batch certificates on file for the next 30 years. Big tobacco proves the degree of liability and industry can be subjected to if society chooses to vilify a product and pursue it as a public health concern. Tobacco Bonds are just the beginning of how BT is going to fall.

"Under the Master Settlement Agreement, or MSA, struck 16 years ago between the biggest U.S. tobacco companies and 46 U.S. states, the companies make annual payments to the states using a complex formula tied to U.S. tobacco shipments. The accord ended years of litigation brought by the states, which had sought to recoup healthcare costs for treating ailments tied to smoking.

The states with the highest populations, such as California and New York, are owed the most. The majority of them arranged to get much of their money up front by selling bonds and pledging the annual payments to the bond holders.

The only problem is that as tobacco shipments decline, so do the payments. And sales of e-cigarettes, which now appear to be helping to accelerate the tobacco-consumption decline rate, are not counted as cigarette sales under the MSA.

The outlook for tobacco bonds is so dire that a forecast last month from Moody's Investors Service predicted 65 to 80 percent were headed toward default."

Legislators pay lip service to public health, but when you structure the liability in an economic framework, the chickens come home to roost real quick.

 

[Kurt]

I'll get more details on the process and sensitivity. I am thinking about just submitting my own samples for testing just to find out for myself.

It surprises me the lack of reaction the e-juice manufacturers have had. The liabilities are enormous. I can see future lawsuits on this basis. If I were in the business I would have in house testing capability as well as third party confirmation and keep batch certificates on file for the next 30 years. Big Tobacco proves the degree of liability and industry can be subjected to if society chooses to vilify a product and pursue it as a public health concern. Tobacco Bonds are just the beginning of how BT is going to fall.

"Under the Master Settlement Agreement, or MSA, struck 16 years ago between the biggest U.S. tobacco companies and 46 U.S. states, the companies make annual payments to the states using a complex formula tied to U.S. tobacco shipments. The accord ended years of litigation brought by the states, which had sought to recoup healthcare costs for treating ailments tied to smoking.

The states with the highest populations, such as California and New York, are owed the most. The majority of them arranged to get much of their money up front by selling bonds and pledging the annual payments to the bond holders.

The only problem is that as tobacco shipments decline, so do the payments. And sales of e-cigarettes, which now appear to be helping to accelerate the tobacco-consumption decline rate, are not counted as cigarette sales under the MSA.

The outlook for tobacco bonds is so dire that a forecast last month from Moody's Investors Service predicted 65 to 80 percent were headed toward default."

Legislators pay lip service to public health, but when you structure the liability in an economic framework, the chickens come home to roost real quick.

In house testing for DA and AP would be wickedly expensive, and require highly skilled chemists very familiar with the assay to carry it out. This is not just injecting a juice into a GC-MS. There are a lot of variables in flavors that make this problem a difficult one to solve. Far better, IMHO, to go with an independent pro lab that can give results with low LOD. Discounts are often available with batch testing.

 

[Ritual]

If it's avoidable like this study suggests, what do Ejuice manufacturer's need to do?

What flavoring's are the culprit? What flavorings aren't?

This study needs to go a step further. Considering he is crowdfunded by the community and Ejuice makers, I hope they follow through.

 

[Firecrow]

In house testing for DA and AP would be wickedly expensive, and require highly skilled chemists very familiar with the assay to carry it out. This is not just injecting a juice into a GC-MS. There are a lot of variables in flavors that make this problem a difficult one to solve. Far better, IMHO, to go with an independent pro lab that can give results with low LOD. Discounts are often available with batch testing.

So is crash testing cars for occupant survivability.

Cost of doing business as far as I am concerned. If I have to pay more for e-juice to have lab quality surveillance, I'm for it.

 

[Uma]

I have upmost faith in Dr. F & in Kurt, to find the safest methods possible and in due time a nice summary of the flavors as they fall into the various levels of standards. Thank you, to both Docs for going to all this trouble for us!!

 

[Cullin Kin]

'DA and AP were found in a large proportion of sweet-flavored EC liquids, at levels that were higher than the strictest safety limits but significantly lower compared to smoking.'

This quote is all I needed to see. Yes, there are hazardous chemicals *when inhaled* in e-liquid, but we all couldn't be so blind as to think vaping was completely harmless. Most of us used vaping as a tool to get off of cigarettes, as we wanted to improve our health, and continued because we love it.

As long as there are *significantly* lower levels of DA and AP (and any other hazardous when inhaled chemical for that matter) in e-juice, I know I've made the right decision. Thanks for posting this.

 

[Firecrow]

'DA and AP were found in a large proportion of sweet-flavored EC liquids, at levels that were higher than the strictest safety limits but significantly lower compared to smoking.'

This quote is all I needed to see. Yes, there are hazardous chemicals *when inhaled* in e-liquid, but we all couldn't be so blind as to think vaping was completely harmless. Most of us used vaping as a tool to get off of cigarettes, as we wanted to improve our health, and continued because we love it.

As long as there are *significantly* lower levels of DA and AP (and any other hazardous when inhaled chemical for that matter) in e-juice, I know I've made the right decision. Thanks for posting this.

I'm no doctor, but because the process is vaporization instead of combustion I wonder if there is a difference in absorption or bioavailability.

 

[Cullin Kin]

I'm no doctor, but because the process is vaporization instead of combustion I wonder if there is a difference in absorption or bioavailability.

Yes there is. Our bodies have much harder time absorbing some chemicals through a vapor medium, and a much easier time with others. It just depends. Unfortunately, there are no exact studies on the bioavailability of DA, AP, or even nicotine in a vapor mix. I've searched for hours, but what I did find is that people who use marijuwania, when it's vaporized, ... bioavailability can drop as much as 30%. Although, that has nothing to do with our PV's, just purely an example.

 

[aubergine]

See also the discussion in Media about this study.

 

[rolygate]

Diacetyl is supposedly safe to eat, but the vapors of cooking where it's present aren't safe to breath. Strange, huh?

Many things are safe to ingest but not inhale. The digestive tract is designed to handle all sorts of toxins and pathogens. The lungs are designed for gas exchange and don't handle anything else very well.

 

[rolygate]

An interesting fact has come out of this research: it looks as if DA is being used as a flavour enhancer much like MSG in food, and can therefore be found almost anywhere. We used to think of it as a buttery/creamy flavour only - but apparently it's popping up in everything.

This appears to be a problem with the original flavouring manufacturers, who are sexing-up their flavours and not telling the aggregators that these flavours must not be used in inhaled products.

Maybe next we'll see an attempt to manipulate the bliss point in e-liquid salt and sugar levels by adding them to refills, without telling anyone either. (The 'bliss point' is the perfect level of added sugar and salt that makes a processed food product taste desirable and even reinforcing, and normally means excessive levels of added sugar and salt - think baked beans.)

 

[Stosh]

Aside from possible use as a flavor enhancer there is naturally occurring DA. Blueberry, coffee (no cream or sugar) and beer all have naturally occurring levels of DA, in a totally organic, all natural flavoring. None of those three flavors would be considered buttery or creamy, and not even sweet in their natural state (no sweetener added)

Adding DA into a flavoring blend should be discouraged and if used disclosed on the labeling. At what level the natural DA is a problem, or even able to be detected needs to be further studied and determined.

 

[valooper]

This is all very interesting stuff and I think also this is why we need the fda regulations on e liquid so everything is on a level playground. Once we get more and more people vaping the cost of these chemicals will go down thats business 101 and the manufacturers will not have to cut corners to make a decent profit. if we take a stand and demand this is what we want and this is what we are going to pay the people have a great power that is seldom tapped but when it is great things are accomplished

We need to remember that!

I do believe this is why so many people are scared of e cigs. Its because lets face it the government did not tell them its okay to use. It sounds bad but thats the reality. ......but thats what we pay them for right?......lol thats a whole nother thread