Are Regulated Devices Future Proof?

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CMD-Ky

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The urge for power and control over others never ends. Those who have the urge have never and will never learn because they know they are right. They care deeply about you. They don't see their previous failure as a mistake, the Court made the mistake.
I don't understand the urge for power or control myself, I want to be left alone and I want to leave others alone.

From what I understand, if the FDA follows through with their proposed Deeming Regulations, CASAA is prepared to file a class action lawsuit to prevent its implementation.

The FDA banned e-cigs a few years ago. They were taken to court and the ban was reversed. One would think they would have learned from past mistakes.
 

yzer

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I don't see the FDA attempting to regulate PVs or APVs in the future. If safety concerns arise with the devices themselves then the Consumer Protect Safety Commission will likely be the lead agency.

Electronic devices are likely to fail before mechanical devices but I see plenty of reports about mechs failing due to poor materials or machining. As K_Tech mentioned the ability to maintain electronics or not makes a big difference in how long the device will last. I restore vacuum tube radios as a hobby. I have WWII military communications receivers that work perfectly as does a 90-year old Atwater Kent AM radio.

As far as APVs go I have two Sigelei Zmax V3s and a V5. One V3 has been in use for 15 months. All work fine and none have required repairs. I'm not too worried about a vaping apocalypse.
 
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turbocad6

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And I've used a 50 year old Kitchen Aide mixer that works just like new. Other than cosmetic and reliability issues, there are no significant differences among PVs other than PWM vs DC output. Power is simply a matter of scale.

So unless someone comes out with something really, really spectacular in the way we vaporize ejuice, I don't see there being any upgrade path. Just like there's nothing new in the way of mixing ingredients so there's no point in buying a new mixer if you had the sense to buy a Kitchen Aide 50 years ago.

Oh, and cars, well, people do (albeit rarely) drive cars that were made 100 years ago and regularly drive cars that are more than 50-60 years old. Computers and cell phones have become commodities, but how many people (who still have a land line phone) have replaced one that was less than 10-15 years old? And there are companies who haven't fallen pray to constant upgrades who are using 10-15 year old computers. For basic things, they work just fine. And vaping is a pretty basic thing to do. It doesn't need much in the way of smarts from the electronics.

I'm not saying that the pv of today will become obsolete, although it may. my mech from 4 years ago is perfectly fine still and may last forever still but I don't use it anymore because it was designed for stacked 123's, todays battery tech and utilization in our pv's is much better so although it's not obsolete the new ones are just "better", and I don't see too much problem considering a vaporizer as a consumable, if it lasts indefinitely then hey, great, but on the other hand replacing a mod in 4-5 years doesn't seem so detrimental to me either.

I just find it odd that so many are stuck in the "I only by mechs because they'll last forever" camp. so many things in todays society are consumables, a "last forever" counterpart just wouldn't be as practical or enjoyable to use. I love my regulated mods to death, I wouldn't choose a mech over a regulated mod personally just on the premise that the mech will last forever, things evolve and things get used up and eventually replaced. I'd rather have a few good years of just touching a button lightly and fires great every time then have it just die one day rather than have a mech that I have to keep cleaning contacts, pressing harder and harder to make contact crushing my batteries just to get it to fire then get misfires because I need to disassemble and perform maintenance etc, the regulated mosfet switched pv is just much more enjoyable to use for me... if I was buying a $5k mod then yeah, I want an heirloom but a 2-300 mod, give me 3-4 years, maybe 5 and it did it's job and more than paid for itself, don't owe me anything at that point and you can be damn sure that in 3-4, 5 years there will be advancements that will probably make you want a new one anyway

this argument reminds me of the debates I've had with some oldtimers about cars, there are some who would say they don't want power windows or fuel injection or air conditioning or level ride or etc etc.. because it's just more things to go wrong but hell, before they do go wrong there just much more enjoyable to use throughout it's service life. I think most of us would choose fuel injection power windows and all the other bells and whistles even though yeah, they are more things to go wrong, not many are driving around in slant 6 dodge darts with only one belt, crank windows and no options because they want it to last forever, why this whole fascination with expecting a simple thing like a pv must last 20-30 years I just don't get :)
 

amolson

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why this whole fascination with expecting a simple thing like a pv must last 20-30 years I just don't get :)

Because to me, that kind of workmanship is beautiful. Why buy a Wolf stove or a Kitchen Aide mixer or Tag Heuer watch? They don't have all the functions and bells and whistles, but they last forever. To me that's a beautiful thing in and of itself.

Now I enjoy all the flash and glitz. I'll probably make my own mod that is set up for that, where I can replace the board in it whenever I feel like it. But my first big mod was a Provari. So when I am playing around with toys, I have my 'it will work no matter what' device.

But then I like old cars, too. Heck, I know how to drive a horse and really appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into harness making. It's just different. There's stuff that's disposable, like most modern electronics. And then there are traditionally made things that are pieces of art in their own right.

And you're right, a lot of people anymore don't see the beauty in well crafted, simple things. Heck, I like beautifully hand forged knives. To me they're gorgeous. Sure a $10 special from Wallyworld does the job and when it breaks, no big deal. But it's not something to keep for the rest of my life.
 

wv2win

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Myself, that's probably the number 1 reason I bought a Provari. It's built as a high reliability device, which means at least 20 years service life, probably longer. I can build a mech in an afternoon with pieces from the hardware store, so I see no reason to buy one in advance.

Look at what happens on fleabay. Their list of banned goods is enormous, but no one listens. I don't think a ban on PVs or even eJuice can be effective and it will be no more than a fleabay type ban. Especially since unlike during the era of the Comstock Laws, there are multiple shippers and even ways of paying for goods that are not under government control.

If even the cops ignore the laws and refuse to enforce them, it doesn't matter what some little clique does with their little dress up game off in DC or a capital somewhere. They can ban dihydrogenmonoxide. There have been places that have come really close. 86% of people surveyed, after appropriate education, signed a petition to ban DHMO. Still doesn't matter, since even if they made such a ban, no one would obey it.

So your advice is to do nothing and don't worry about it. Breaking the law will be easy and those who get caught and probably severely fined, that is there problem. Just like in 2009 when both vendors and consumers shipments were confiscated, some losing thousands of dollars, that is their problem. It's no wonder why our advocacy groups cannot get more support.


And to the OP's question: the Deeming Regulations, based on the cigarette example that cigarette paper is considered a tobacco product and regulated, also covers devices. Will the FDA go after it when all they have to do is control nicotine and eliquid? Many of us think they won't because they won't need to. But they can if they so choose.
 
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amolson

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So your advice is to do nothing and don't worry about it.

This is one of those constant media arguments, the absolute polarization to divide people so they can be controlled. No, I won't give in to that because it is a mind control technique. Nope, not falling for it.

Doing what I can is not 'doing nothing' no matter what some talking head on the idiot box says. I refuse to fall for that game. It's how they discourage regular people from contributing to or participating in politics. The argument that if you aren't doing x, then you're doing nothing, is how they win. So thanks for supporting all the anti-people.

But civil disobedience does work. That's why it's hated so much and so much effort is done to discredit it, primarily by using such rhetoric.
 

Singaw

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:lol: I can see it now, Provaris and DNA 30 mods will be advertised as dry herb vaping. Devices can't go anywhere.

I can see the Provari flashlight with removable 510 head in the future before I see it advertised as a dry herb vaporizer. But regardless one way or another vaping is here to stay and there will be plenty of fine people to keep us supplied. Where there is a need it is always filled either in a B&M, Chinese website or some back alley.
 

The Torch

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Mechanical wear and thermal stress are your enemy. If you take good care of your electronics, they'll take care of you. Although electronics have sort of a lifespan, I have some old audio gear that's 30 to 50 years old that has had nothing but a little TLC to keep running strong.

I'd be willing to bet that there's a lot of good vape gear that will still be kicking after 30 years as long as the 510 threading doesn't wear out.

Not sure about 30 years, more likely between 10 and 20 depending on the owner's habits - modern miniaturized circuits offer very little conductor surface and so wear relatively much faster than technologies of old.

most people change phones every 1-2 years, cars and computers every 3-4 years, why anyone requires there few hundred buck pv to last them 20+ years I just don't get... how long did 2 cartons of cigarettes last you?

I believe the point goes more like this: If they stopped making new computers and cell phones, I bet a year's pay you'd find a way to make what you have now last 10 years and more (provided you still had a use for them).

I bought my computer used... 5 years ago and it still rocks for most of my applications.

Good answers, all.

I hear many scare stories sometimes about the future of vaping. I have considered going down the Mech Mod route to cover myself. But really, how much can a person cover themselves. Even with the best kit, it's an almost impossible task to be 100% future proof. I often consider ways to build my own kit, including Atomizers and a safer homemade Mech Mod.

I'm becoming more self-reliant all the time. I really don't need anything for the next two years. I'd hate to be in a situation where I was tied to spending hand over fist on cartridges for ciga-likes.

But as has been said, a ban on Mods is a worst case scenario, and a highly unlikely outcome. But still, there are ways and means to keep kit going in some form if it's looked after well enough.

Flashlights will always be there and the better quality ones are regulated to well over 30 watts -although LEDs offer much more resistance than a 0.3 ohm coil... In a year or two you'll be able to drip straight on an LED and never need to rebuild (although I wonder what would happen to a gunked up LED...)

Since it is so easy to make your own PV, there is no good reason for those in power to ban them. It would likely just force people with not enough knowledge to make their own potentially dangerous PV's or they would just have to try to ban other technologies, making the crowd of unrest even bigger. We're talking about a hobby that actually has people as passionate about it as smokers; you can't just go out and ban cigarettes and not expect some form of illegal activities or revolution to follow.

At best, they could dictate maximum power and minimal security for PV's but, since there are so few problems with e-cig security so far, they don't have proper motive to do so and it would COST them money for no profit to follow. E-juice is the only really questionable end here and they are still missing proven factual evidence to really do anything about it. They just try and pass some stupid law and if no one challenges them in court, they win. Whenever anyone with a head on their shoulders challenges them in court, vapers win. I believe all they can really do at this point is figure out how they are going to make money out of this, and that would be by giving big tobacco the largest slice of the cake as possible. For any legislation about e-juice to be durable, they need a whole lot more data that no one has at the moment, else they are just shooting in the dark, trying to control people with no piece of evidence in hand.
 

K_Tech

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Not sure about 30 years, more likely between 10 and 20 depending on the owner's habits - modern miniaturized circuits offer very little conductor surface and so wear relatively much faster than technologies of old.

Maybe, maybe not. There are just too many variables for me to make a blanket statement like that. Take microswitches, for example. We've got switches that are commonly rated for 100,000 operations, but higher current through the switch = more arcing at the contacts = shorter time to failure.

But if that switch is being used as a simple discrete input to the circuit board rather than as a current-carrying switching device, I can easily see doubling that lifespan.

Or, as another example, take the OKR-T/10 DC/DC converter. Temperature is its enemy (as with most electronics). Keep it well away from its limits, it should last darn near forever. Run that puppy well below its lower limit (which it will happily do) and you may be looking at buying another chip in a week or two.

Which sort of leads me to another related topic.

Aside from the body, many mods are comprised of off-the-shelf components. Buy a device, a box of horn switches, a handful of 510 connectors, and three or four DNA30 chipsets, and you'd be good well into retirement.
 

sky4it

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Thanks to the OP, Anthony. Its a great question. One of the reasons i began buying mech mods, was possible FDA crackdown, as you suggest. When a man like Bill Godshall is talking greater than 90 percent of the stuff being regulated in these Regs, my ears do listen.

The FDA ( food & drug administration) can't ban or regulate non food or drug products.
Delivery & power devices are not going anywhere, the juice is their only focus.

Reposted from an old Kent C post:

C.Tobacco Product

Tobacco product means “any product made or derived from tobacco that is intended for human consumption, including any component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product (except for raw materials other than tobacco used in manufacturing a component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product)” (section 201(rr)(1) of the Act. Thus, the term is not limited to products containing tobacco, but also includes components, parts, or accessories of tobacco products, whether they are sold for further manufacturing or for consumer use. For example, tobacco, papers, and filters are tobacco products, whether they are sold to consumers for use with roll-your-own tobacco or are sold for further manufacturing into a product sold to a consumer, such as a cigarette. This term does not include an article that is a drug, a device, or a combination product as defined in the FD&C Act (section 201(rr)(2) of the FD&C Act (21 USC 321(rr)(2)).


You are therefore incorrect. Proposed legislation gives the FDA sweeping authority because it: "also includes components, parts, or accessories of tobacco products" which means abt the only thing safe at this time is batteries (and probably not ego ones,mod and APV batteries because they have other uses) and maybe flavorings. At best it is unclear wether APV's will be regulated. With some stories abt people using mods in subohming (formaldehyde is in play) and a few exploding batteries, its a safe bet that they will regulate them. Flavorings is kind of a weird one, it would take mucho time to explain. (Oddly all flavorings probably will be exempt- even tobacco taste alikes, as long as they dont have nicotine in the flavoring.)<<< This part is complicated.

A trip to the FDA section and lots of reading will give you the scoop. To anyone listening,NOW IS THE TIME, to get involved. There are some people in the FDA section who have so much of there time invested in this stuff, its a tragedy if people dont get involved.

From what I understand, if the FDA follows through with their proposed Deeming Regulations, CASAA is prepared to file a class action lawsuit to prevent its implementation.

The FDA banned e-cigs a few years ago. They were taken to court and the ban was reversed. One would think they would have learned from past mistakes.

Proprietary in nature Baditude. This is way different. The difference is that the FDA will have law implemented, (LAW IMPLEMENTED like a tractor that can plow) during the time any legal action is taken. And enforcement would be in play while the courts determined the fate. /// Take a look at the present, while they say nothing. When corporations and government are saying nothing, it usually means the lawyers are calling the shots. Transparencies are not issues either Baditude, when things get captured this way. Its why they do it, so they dont have long court battles or perhaps any court battle because the case gets thrown out. How thrown out? A judge will throw out a case, if it contravenes existing law. ie(When the FDA proposed rules are law.) After that it is like climbing Mount Everest. During the interim, what have we here? We got a few numbskulls calling the FDA names. All that stuff might get dropped like poison from the apparatus when the time comes. Which means abt all that, that you said, they really dont care.


If people dont get involved, Bingo for buttons and donkey's for noodles,,, not much is going to get done with maximum results. The problem is with these threads when they get steered over into the FDA section correctifiedly, people disappear and leave.

Oh is that so. Well dont anyone tell who that where dey are is misplaced!!!!!!!

NO?

I'm about ready when it comes to this stuff to just settle for a schooner myself. Donkey Kong anyone?
 

jpargana

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I guess I tried to get the best of the two worlds... :)

I simply use mech mods with the Kick module. Of course, the Kick does not give you everything a regulated mech does, but it gives me what I find most important of all: security (overcurrent/reverse polarity/over discharge) and VW setting. On my Sigelei, the only feature I used was the VW setting anyway, so, with the Roller and a Kick, I got sort a "much smaller Sigelei" - a big plus for me... :)

Besides, a Kick is not that expensive, when compared to a mod. I have two on reserve, if something happens. And, if something terrible happens to ALL my Kick's (knock on wood), I can always use the Roller as a very sturdy, durable mech mod - that's what it is, anyway...
 
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